The Viking Irishman's Witch Guide


Advice

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Gravewalker warranted a black listing? Check the spell poppet's version of deliver touch spells :P Turn that Inflict Critical wounds into a ranged touch at the cost of a pin, it practically sells itself.

Dark Archive

Wolf_Shay wrote:
Gravewalker warranted a black listing? Check the spell poppet's version of deliver touch spells :P Turn that Inflict Critical wounds into a ranged touch at the cost of a pin, it practically sells itself.

The spell poppet ability requires a full round action to use. This means you cast the spell and it's not delivered until the end of your next rounds action. It is a horribly inefficient ability and murders all your action economy. Not to mention giving up your familiar so no assists, no scouting, etc.

This is NOT a good ability.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Wolf_Shay wrote:
Gravewalker warranted a black listing? Check the spell poppet's version of deliver touch spells :P Turn that Inflict Critical wounds into a ranged touch at the cost of a pin, it practically sells itself.

The spell poppet ability requires a full round action to use. This means you cast the spell and it's not delivered until the end of your next rounds action. It is a horribly inefficient ability and murders all your action economy. Not to mention giving up your familiar so no assists, no scouting, etc.

This is NOT a good ability.

Not exactly...the spell comes into effect just before your next round's action... Also, you cast a touch spell and you can hold the charge as long as you need and THEN stab the doll. This is also ANY touch spell. Healing, enchantment, transmutation, sky's the limit. The lack of a familiar can be crippling to some, but for others not so much. Less chance of your "walking spell book" getting dead. This is the the give and take of using an archetype...lose something, get something in its place


It's been mentioned elsewhere but for the completeness of the guide

Halfings should perhaps be given a slightly higher rating for the possibility of the Jinx alternate racial feature that interacts with Evil eye through the Malicious Eye Feat. although very feat intensive you can potentially be knocking down some or all saves by -7, couple this with another caster throwing around save or suck spells and your golden

Liberty's Edge

Thanks for the info on Halfling Jinxes. somehow, I missed that.

That said, the guide has been updated to be current with the Advanced Race Guide. Please let me know of any mistakes or oversights you feel I've made.


Just want to chime in and say awesome guide. Thanks for all the time and effort you put into making it.

-Kcinlive

Grand Lodge

No advice on the Con based Orc witch archetype yet huh?
Seriously awesome potential there.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

No advice on the Con based Orc witch archetype yet huh?

Seriously awesome potential there.

I just wish it was PFS legal....

Grand Lodge

No Orcs in PFS?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
No Orcs in PFS?
Additional Resources wrote:
In Chapter 2, nothing from the catfolk, drow, fetchlings, goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, orcs, and ratfolk entries are currently legal for play.

Since the Scarred Witch Doctor is in the Orc entry, it's not legal for PFS.

Grand Lodge

Is there a Boon, like the Tiefling, to buy the option to play an Orc?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Is there a Boon, like the Tiefling, to buy the option to play an Orc?

I don't think so. They might put one out in the future, but PFS tends to stay away from evil races.

Grand Lodge

Tiefling is not evil? That is weird to me.


I disagree with your rating of Beast-Bound Archetype.

At 10th level you are effectively immortal. Not only that you AND your familiar can swap bodies to whatever you want.

On top of that you never have to worry about loosing your familiar. Have a friend use a summoning circle to get a Imp or even a Succubus... say hello to your new familiar without taking the Imp Familiar feat.

You have magic jar with no receptacle... once you take a body the creatures soul is... well it is just gone.

Giving up 3 Hexes is more than worth that. Most broken ability the witch can get imo.

Liberty's Edge

Kcinlive wrote:

Just want to chime in and say awesome guide. Thanks for all the time and effort you put into making it.

-Kcinlive

Thank you. ^_^ It's a labor of love.

blackbloodtroll wrote:

No advice on the Con based Orc witch archetype yet huh?

Seriously awesome potential there.

I've got Scarred Witch Doctor listed down with the other Archetypes. Any advice I could give beyond what's already there is mostly just the common sense of "Con is now your most important stat ever."

Dragonamedrake wrote:

I disagree with your rating of Beast-Bound Archetype.

At 10th level you are effectively immortal. Not only that you AND your familiar can swap bodies to whatever you want.

On top of that you never have to worry about loosing your familiar. Have a friend use a summoning circle to get a Imp or even a Succubus... say hello to your new familiar without taking the Imp Familiar feat.

You have magic jar with no receptacle... once you take a body the creatures soul is... well it is just gone.

Giving up 3 Hexes is more than worth that. Most broken ability the witch can get imo.

Yeah, but that's all you get in exchange for nearly all of your low-level versatility. That, and most games tend to peter out around level 12 or 13, so you've made a huge investment for a situational ability that may or may not actually come up in the few levels you have left to play.

Also, where does it say that you can get a succubus for a familiar? Because that would be just fantastic.


with the succubus I believe he means
familiar dies, familiar soul goes to your body, familiar magic jars his soul down a succubus throat.

I however think that that's rather weak as you can have a humunculus (construct traits) that you can modify like any contruct. The "soul" part will be weird though.

Anyhow as you can take extra hex feat I too think it's worth it. But I guess most GMs won't allow Beast-bonded as it's a bit too much immortality if played well. But yes, you loose some feats.

Dark Archive

Richard Leonhart wrote:

with the succubus I believe he means

familiar dies, familiar soul goes to your body, familiar magic jars his soul down a succubus throat.

I however think that that's rather weak as you can have a humunculus (construct traits) that you can modify like any contruct. The "soul" part will be weird though.

Anyhow as you can take extra hex feat I too think it's worth it. But I guess most GMs won't allow Beast-bonded as it's a bit too much immortality if played well. But yes, you loose some feats.

Yeah, this archetype really boils down to trading 3 feats for immortality, an at will death attack and the ability to delay spending the rest of your feats (effectively holding them) until you qualify to take the ones you really want and spending them then.

That last part is the underused one even though it is kind of powerful.


The Bonded Witch archetype is missing :( I really wanted to see your opinion on it

Dark Archive

So I was reading through the ARG, and the Scarred Witch Doctor looks awesome.

My only question is "What do you do at 1st level?" It seems like with only the natural armor Hex, you wouldn't really have much you are capable of doing beyond shooting things with a crossbow, considering Witches don't have any damage cantrips.

Grand Lodge

Traits can give you damage cantrips.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Seranov wrote:

So I was reading through the ARG, and the Scarred Witch Doctor looks awesome.

My only question is "What do you do at 1st level?" It seems like with only the natural armor Hex, you wouldn't really have much you are capable of doing beyond shooting things with a crossbow, considering Witches don't have any damage cantrips.

Be a melee character! You've got high Con thanks to it being your casting stat and excellent Str from the +4, you get a +1 natural armor bonus, and you should hopefully have decent Dex too. Then throw on Mage Armor, maybe throw on a buckler (only 5% spell failure chance, acceptable) and I would expect you to have an AC of around 19-20 and at least 10 hit points.

Then run right in and clobber things!

Liberty's Edge

I just don't see why people are so in love with the scarred witch doctor archetype. You're taking a race who isn't advancing your casting stat, and beyond that your hex DCs are still working off of intelligence, which your race gets a penalty to. In exchange, you gain a few extra hit points. Just doesn't seem worth it.

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cartmanbeck wrote:
Seranov wrote:

So I was reading through the ARG, and the Scarred Witch Doctor looks awesome.

My only question is "What do you do at 1st level?" It seems like with only the natural armor Hex, you wouldn't really have much you are capable of doing beyond shooting things with a crossbow, considering Witches don't have any damage cantrips.

Be a melee character! You've got high Con thanks to it being your casting stat and excellent Str from the +4, you get a +1 natural armor bonus, and you should hopefully have decent Dex too. Then throw on Mage Armor, maybe throw on a buckler (only 5% spell failure chance, acceptable) and I would expect you to have an AC of around 19-20 and at least 10 hit points.

Then run right in and clobber things!

...So take a Greataxe and go to town? Sounds legit.

ShadowcatX wrote:
I just don't see why people are so in love with the scarred witch doctor archetype. You're taking a race who isn't advancing your casting stat, and beyond that your hex DCs are still working off of intelligence, which your race gets a penalty to. In exchange, you gain a few extra hit points. Just doesn't seem worth it.

The Hexes work off Constitution, too.

"Constitution Dependent: A scarred witch doctor uses Constitution instead of Intelligence when determining the highest level of spells she can cast, her spell save DCs, number of spells known at 1st level, and any effects of her hexes normally determined by her Intelligence."

Liberty's Edge

Since when is "effect" the same thing as DC?

Dark Archive

ShadowcatX wrote:
Since when is "effect" the same thing as DC?

"Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The save to resist a hex is equal to 10 + 1/2 the witch's level + the witch's Intelligence modifier."

I would imagine the previously mentioned passage would count as it being "otherwise noted." Or at the very least, that seems the most logical reading, to me.

-e-

Durr, I need to read things in their entirety before I try to argue them.

Regardless, I still think it would be counter-intuitive to make a Witch archetype that was ham-stringed from the get-go at using their iconic Hexes. Especially for something called a Witch Doctor.

Liberty's Edge

If, RAI, the witch doctor is to use constitution as the DC booster for their hexes, then it gets a lot better, but I just don't know that a case can be made that it is RAI.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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ShadowcatX wrote:
If, RAI, the witch doctor is to use constitution as the DC booster for their hexes, then it gets a lot better, but I just don't know that a case can be made that it is RAI.

Seriously? It's obvious that the intent IS to use Con to determine ANYTHING related to hexes that would normally be based on Int. That includes the save DCs. Look at it this way, one effect of the evil eye hex is that it forces the target to make a will save. That's an effect. Therefore, that will save is based on the witch's Con bonus.

People on here seriously get way too caught up in the wording of abilities. The word "effect" is never defined as being one specific thing or another in the Pathfinder rulebooks, and so you have to use the CONTEXT to determine what "effect" means in each case. In this case, "effect" means any part of the Hex class feature that is normally dependent on Int, and instead it's now dependent on Con.

Liberty's Edge

If they wanted effects to mean DCs seems like to me they'd have just used "spell effects". But they didn't, for spells they specifically called out DCs. Maybe you're right, you certainly could be, but I tend to error on the side of caution and that is what I would do with this ability until either the RAW or RAI is clarified.

(That said, is there any hex that has something other than the difficulty based off of intelligence?)

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

ShadowcatX wrote:

If they wanted effects to mean DCs seems like to me they'd have just used "spell effects". But they didn't, for spells they specifically called out DCs. Maybe you're right, you certainly could be, but I tend to error on the side of caution and that is what I would do with this ability until either the RAW or RAI is clarified.

(That said, is there any hex that has something other than the difficulty based off of intelligence?)

No, hexes are by default always based on Int. Every variable effect used in Hexes are based on Int, that's why it would make no sense that save DCs would not be included in the Int->Con conversion from this ability.

This is sort of like the white-haired witch, where they said that the white hair's attack and CMB is based on Int instead of Str, but they forgot to say anything about CMD. Really, it should count for CMD also, but the writer forgot to include that, so people say "no, you still have to use the witch's Str mod for CMD!!" even though that makes NO SENSE.

Sigh.

Dark Archive

ShadowcatX wrote:

If they wanted effects to mean DCs seems like to me they'd have just used "spell effects". But they didn't, for spells they specifically called out DCs. Maybe you're right, you certainly could be, but I tend to error on the side of caution and that is what I would do with this ability until either the RAW or RAI is clarified.

(That said, is there any hex that has something other than the difficulty based off of intelligence?)

A quick look only found:

"Prehensile Hair (Su): The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score."

This further leads me to believe it IS talking about DCs, because it'd be strange to me to use the meaning you've suggested, otherwise. I wish they'd used clearer language on it.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Seranov wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:

If they wanted effects to mean DCs seems like to me they'd have just used "spell effects". But they didn't, for spells they specifically called out DCs. Maybe you're right, you certainly could be, but I tend to error on the side of caution and that is what I would do with this ability until either the RAW or RAI is clarified.

(That said, is there any hex that has something other than the difficulty based off of intelligence?)

A quick look only found:

"Prehensile Hair (Su): The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score."

This further leads me to believe it IS talking about DCs, because it'd be strange to me to use the meaning you've suggested, otherwise. I wish they'd used clearer language on it.

That's the Prehensile Hair hex, which works as intended because they worded it usefully. Here's the White Hair ability of the White Haired Witch:

"At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. The hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier. In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action* without provoking an attack of opportunity, using her Intelligence modifier in place of her Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check. When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this way, she does not gain the grappled condition.

At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, a white-haired witch’s hair adds 5 feet to its reach, to a maximum of 30 feet at 20th level."

So, as you can see, if they had worded this one like they did the Prehensile Hair hex, things would have worked out great. However, the writer worded the ability badly, and so you get people screaming "YOU CAN'T USE INT FOR CMD, ONLY CMB!! THAT ABILITY SUCKS!!"

This is what we have in our current case. Since the writer used the word "effects", we have a concern from one of our esteemed colleagues that that doesn't include hex DCs. However, I think in this case the intent is even more obvious than in the case of the white-haired witch, in that hex DCs should be included in the Int->Con conversion.

Dark Archive

I want to believe that's the intention.

Regardless, back to my "how to level 1 Scarred Witch Doctor" inquiry. I took Improved Initiative for him, because hell yeah Improved Initiative, but maybe it would be better to grab Toughness at first level, especially if he'll be without armor and in melee?

It fits the fluff, too, you'd imagine a dude who has covered himself in scars would be exceedingly tough.

Grand Lodge

Armored Kilt will not interfere with spellcasting.


Seranov wrote:

I want to believe that's the intention.

Regardless, back to my "how to level 1 Scarred Witch Doctor" inquiry. I took Improved Initiative for him, because hell yeah Improved Initiative, but maybe it would be better to grab Toughness at first level, especially if he'll be without armor and in melee?

It fits the fluff, too, you'd imagine a dude who has covered himself in scars would be exceedingly tough.

Well, Toughness might be overkill (or would it?) assuming you'd have 16+ con already.

For feat picks at level 1 you could probably consider Improved Initiative, Combat Casting (if you're going to do some melee it could be handy sometimes) or perhaps Dodge (if you got 13+ dex). Not too many great choices when you can't pick Extra Hex.

On a side note: imagine feeding a fetish mask burned scroll-stuff to teach it new spells.


All the talk about scarred witch doctors and Beast-Bonded witches at the same time made me realize that the two archetypes are technically compatible - there's no overlap in the features they trade out. Of course, under normal circumstances this should render most of the Beast-Bond features useless since you have no familiar. However, looking over the text, I suspect that RAW you would be able to apply Beast-Bonded's benefits to a familiar obtained through Eldritch Heritage (arcane).

It would be a very strange build, mind you; you're trading out a lot of hexes and your first few feats are spoken for so you can't make it up with Extra Hex. Still, it's an interestingly weird idea, at least in my mind.

Liberty's Edge

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Yeah, this archetype really boils down to trading 3 feats for immortality, an at will death attack and the ability to delay spending the rest of your feats (effectively holding them) until you qualify to take the ones you really want and spending them then.

That last part is the underused one even though it is kind of powerful.

I guess I'm still not really seeing the benefit of slogging through nine levels of less-efficient existence in order to achieve this "immortality." Seriously, do you guys not play with GMs that attack familiars?

Wolf_Shay wrote:
The Bonded Witch archetype is missing :( I really wanted to see your opinion on it

Ack, thank you. I knew I forgot something. Updated.


VikingIrishman wrote:
I guess I'm still not really seeing the benefit of slogging through nine levels of less-efficient existence in order to achieve this "immortality." Seriously, do you guys not play with GMs that attack familiars?

I suppose you could add a bit about starting at or after 10th level, if those first 9 are your issue.


so assuming the GMs really likes to attack the familiar
non beast bonded- familiar dies, all extra spells are lost, money wasted, witch crying.

beast bonded - soul of familiar goes to the witch, familiar possesses succubus, witch keeps all her spells, and got a better familiar.

I prefer the last option.

But of course it only starts shining at lvl 10, and if you never reach that level it's not worth it.

Liberty's Edge

Richard Leonhart wrote:

so assuming the GMs really likes to attack the familiar

non beast bonded- familiar dies, all extra spells are lost, money wasted, witch crying.

beast bonded - soul of familiar goes to the witch, familiar possesses succubus, witch keeps all her spells, and got a better familiar.

I prefer the last option.

But of course it only starts shining at lvl 10, and if you never reach that level it's not worth it.

I was more referring to enemies ending you and then ending/eating your familiar. I guess I just have too much experience with overly thorough GMs. I will add a clause about starting play at higher levels, though.


VikingIrishman wrote:
I was more referring to enemies ending you and then ending/eating your familiar. I guess I just have too much experience with overly thorough GMs. I will add a clause about starting play at higher levels, though.

My GM has explicitly stated "If you use your familiar for combat it becomes a valid target", but ignores them otherwise. Seems like a reasonable thing, as I think most foes wouldn't actively target small animals (or the like, I guess imps or so are valid targets by default by atleast good people and those who dislike devils - but they can turn invisible anywway) and instead focus on another threat.

Liberty's Edge

Alright, more updates done. I even added a low-level build for the Scarred Witch Doctor because they're so, so sexy.


if the enemy ends you, and you're not beast bonded then you're dead. (and I think your familiar vanishes after several days anyway)
If the enemy ends you and you're beast bonded you go into your familiar and you have a chance to flee, hell in combat you might even possess the enemy yourself!
So it's still pretty good.

Dark Archive

VikingIrishman wrote:
Alright, more updates done. I even added a low-level build for the Scarred Witch Doctor because they're so, so sexy.

It looks awesome!

Now to try and convince a DM to let me play one!

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

You know that half orcs, via their orc-blooded racial ability, can be scarred witch doctors.

Also, the scarred witch docter absolutely can use their constitution for both hexes and spells:

"Constitution Dependent: A scarred witch doctor uses
Constitution instead of Intelligence when determining
the highest level of spells she can cast, her spell save DCs,
number of spells known at 1st level, and any effects of her
hexes normally determined by her Intelligence."

One would be hard pressed to say that the save DC was not an effect of the hex.

Dark Archive

moon glum wrote:

You know that half orcs, via their orc-blooded racial ability, can be scarred witch doctors.

Also, the scarred witch docter absolutely can use their constitution for both hexes and spells:

"Constitution Dependent: A scarred witch doctor uses
Constitution instead of Intelligence when determining
the highest level of spells she can cast, her spell save DCs,
number of spells known at 1st level, and any effects of her
hexes normally determined by her Intelligence."

One would be hard pressed to say that the save DC was not an effect of the hex.

Actually no they don't. Only pure Orcs qualify for this archetype.

(they clarified the racial archetypes today and ruled that half-orcs are only considered Orcs for EFFECTS not archetypes.

Dark Archive

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
moon glum wrote:

You know that half orcs, via their orc-blooded racial ability, can be scarred witch doctors.

Also, the scarred witch docter absolutely can use their constitution for both hexes and spells:

"Constitution Dependent: A scarred witch doctor uses
Constitution instead of Intelligence when determining
the highest level of spells she can cast, her spell save DCs,
number of spells known at 1st level, and any effects of her
hexes normally determined by her Intelligence."

One would be hard pressed to say that the save DC was not an effect of the hex.

Actually no they don't. Only pure Orcs qualify for this archetype.

(they clarified the racial archetypes today and ruled that half-orcs are only considered Orcs for EFFECTS not archetypes.

Unless your DM claims otherwise, I imagine.

Dark Archive

Seranov wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
moon glum wrote:

You know that half orcs, via their orc-blooded racial ability, can be scarred witch doctors.

Also, the scarred witch docter absolutely can use their constitution for both hexes and spells:

"Constitution Dependent: A scarred witch doctor uses
Constitution instead of Intelligence when determining
the highest level of spells she can cast, her spell save DCs,
number of spells known at 1st level, and any effects of her
hexes normally determined by her Intelligence."

One would be hard pressed to say that the save DC was not an effect of the hex.

Actually no they don't. Only pure Orcs qualify for this archetype.

(they clarified the racial archetypes today and ruled that half-orcs are only considered Orcs for EFFECTS not archetypes.
Unless your DM claims otherwise, I imagine.

And that's moving into Rule 0 territory and none of the rules matter there.

Lets keep the discussion to RAW on the board and accept the implicit assumption that rule 0 exists but isn't relevant here.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Actually no they don't. Only pure Orcs qualify for this archetype.

(they clarified the racial archetypes today and ruled that half-orcs are only considered Orcs for EFFECTS not archetypes.)

Can you point us towards that ruling? I looked around a bit but couldn't find it.


So Half-Orcs will count as orc for a bane weapon, but not for a class archetype.

Man, it's like a return to 3E half-races' "worst of both worlds" all over again... :p

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

pH unbalanced wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Actually no they don't. Only pure Orcs qualify for this archetype.

(they clarified the racial archetypes today and ruled that half-orcs are only considered Orcs for EFFECTS not archetypes.)
Can you point us towards that ruling? I looked around a bit but couldn't find it.

Well here is James affirming that half orcs are subtype Orc. I can't find any semi-official statements that half or s would not count as or s for feats, or archetypes.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz20ea?Whats-the-halforcs-subtype#0

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