Halfling Wizards?

[Shadowfoot]

How effective are halfling wizards? I'm thinking of an abjurer and wondering what race would be best. I'm expecting lots of travel in the first 10 levels.

[Jiggy]

Shadowfoot wrote:

How effective are halfling wizards? I'm thinking of an abjurer and wondering what race would be best. I'm expecting lots of travel in the first 10 levels.

Naturally, the most powerful races for wizards would be those who can put a racial bonus into INT. However, careful planning can make a viable wizard out of any race - a lower INT is less of an issue if you don't use many spells that grant saves. For instance, if you use lots of rays (relying on a ranged touch attack to take effect, rather than a save), then the halfing's size bonus to attack rolls and +2 DEX will make you more likely to hit.

Of course, if you made a halfling sorcerer, then you get the aforementioned tactics with rays while simultaneously getting a boost to your casting stat. Halflings (and gnomes, for that matter) make great sorcerers.

[LazarX]

Shadowfoot wrote:

How effective are halfling wizards? I'm thinking of an abjurer and wondering what race would be best. I'm expecting lots of travel in the first 10 levels.

They might fail Treantmonk's test of optimization, but they can still be fun and effective. Heck one of the wizard iconics in Ultimate magic is a halfling. :)

Key thing is... think of your other strengths as a halfling. You may find some very good things there. Dragon magazine ran an article on hafling wizards a long while back. It's worth digging up even for Pathfinder.

[Tilnar]

Let me add my 2 cents to that -- a ray-built halfling wizard can be quite effective (and made even more so with Reduce Person)

[Bwang]

Played with one in the party a decade back. Very survivable. Husband played a Dwarf Fighter and served as her 'protector'. She made several levels primarily by buffing him as he went into battle. As she worked up her conjuration specialty, she was able to gift us with key 'allies' in an array of situations.

[FallingIcicle]

Halfings make great wizards. Their small size is pretty much nothing but a benefit. It's not like they really suffer from the lack of strength or reduced speed (at least not when you can conjure mounts or fly).

The truth is, pretty much any race can do well as a wizard. Even those with a -2 penalty to Intelligence can do well. It's only a 1 or 2 point difference in save DCs and a couple bonus spells per day difference. Just make sure you start with at least a 14 Int and you'll be fine as long as you put all of your level-up ability points into Int. Wizards have the means to overcome whatever weaknesses they may have due to race.

Sometimes, it's more fun to play a less optimal race. I once played a Kobold Wizard and when I told the rest of my group what I was planning on playing they all looked at me in shock. Why would you want to be a kobold, they asked? One player even laughingly suggested that I should get a bonus level (the opposite of a level adjustment) for playing such a weak race! But it turned out to be one of the most enjoyable characters I've ever played.

So, don't listen to what the min/maxers say. If you think a halfling wizard would be a fun character to play, go for it!

[Shadowfoot]

Sounds like it's a go then. I've identified that there will be trade-offs by spending time to create items, but they are not punishing.

Which schools are best as opposition for an abjurer? Necromancy and Evocation?

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Small size+ Perm reduce person+ small familiar (meaning either improved or a pig) = free mount.

Of course you can also cast spells on a familiar that you couldn't another species. So a raven permanently enlarged + halfling permanently reduced = flying mount. Will have to check the strength issues, but that's not difficult to overcome with magic (See mule back chords).

Same concept, but with a pseudo dragon familiar = Halfling dragon rider. ;-)

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Small size+ Perm reduce person+ small familiar (meaning either improved or a pig) = free mount.

Of course you can also cast spells on a familiar that you couldn't another species. So a raven permanently enlarged + halfling permanently reduced = flying mount. Will have to check the strength issues, but that's not difficult to overcome with magic (See mule back chords).

Same concept, but with a pseudo dragon familiar = Halfling dragon rider. ;-)

Of course that's a lot of trouble for little gain. You're better off just casting Phantom steed. Still though the imagery is cool.

I had a caster who did this with an air elemental once.

[Celestial Healer]

Shadowfoot wrote:

Sounds like it's a go then. I've identified that there will be trade-offs by spending time to create items, but they are not punishing.

Which schools are best as opposition for an abjurer? Necromancy and Evocation?

Most wizard PCs won't miss Necromancy, which makes it an easy choice. Not that there aren't some good spells (there are), but it doesn't seem to have as many "must haves" as other schools.

Evocation is a disciplined choice. The conventional wisdom is that wizards are at their most effective doing something other than direct damage. But I generally lack the willpower to forego Magic Missiles and Fireballs, and therefore tend to give in to my urge to blow things up at least once in a while.

I have in the past chosen Illusion or Enchantment as opposition schools (usually not both for the same wizard). There are certain spells a wizard is likely to miss in those schools, but they're viable options in my book.

As for your OP, I agree with the posters above. If you have a fun concept for a halfling wizard, then play it.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

I don't use enchantment very much. Hardly ever really.

[Benicio Del Espada]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

I don't use enchantment very much. Hardly ever really.

If you specialize in it, it's pretty awesome. If you don't, it's one of the easier ones to give up, IMHO. Sometimes blasting is a good choice, and evocation does more than just blasting.

A halfling wizard can do just fine. Small size and good dex work to your advantage more often than not. If the idea floats your boat, do it!

[Mike Schneider]

Tilnar wrote:

Let me add my 2 cents to that -- a ray-built halfling wizard can be quite effective (and made even more so with Reduce Person)

Ding!-ding!-ding!

We have a winner.

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Small size+ Perm reduce person+ small familiar (meaning either improved or a pig) = free mount.

My latest arcane-caster is a gnome who "rides" a Floating Disk (he has a complicated contraption of boards and ropes and pulleys and counterweights strapped over the top of it).

[LazarX]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Small size+ Perm reduce person+ small familiar (meaning either improved or a pig) = free mount.

Of course you can also cast spells on a familiar that you couldn't another species. So a raven permanently enlarged + halfling permanently reduced = flying mount. Will have to check the strength issues, but that's not difficult to overcome with magic (See mule back chords).

Same concept, but with a pseudo dragon familiar = Halfling dragon rider. ;-)

Mule back cords are not going to overcome the PHYSICAL limitations of your extremely small size, such as your spellbook being physically larger than you are.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Str your dump stat + -2 Str means that if your DM enforces the encumbrance rules, you'll have problems at low levels. At Str 9, you become encumbered over 30 pounds. Str 6, it's just 20 pounds. So you'll want a traveling spellbook (50 gp, 1 pound instead of 5) at first level, and you'll want to invest early in a Bag of Holding or similar encumbrance-reducing item.

Doug M.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Mike Schneider wrote:

Tilnar wrote:

Let me add my 2 cents to that -- a ray-built halfling wizard can be quite effective (and made even more so with Reduce Person)

Ding!-ding!-ding!

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

We have a winner.

Add my voice to this. A halfling wizard who goes in for rays can be much fun indeed, especially at medium levels. (At higher levels you may have to change things around a bit, because there aren't so many high level ray spells.)

Enchantment is also an option; your Cha bonus helps a bit here. The problem with enchantment is that it's save or suck and a lot of things are immune to it, so often you're either shutting down the encounter with a wave of your hand ("The ogre likes us now. Let's move on.") or you're useless. ("Zombies! Um... I pull out my crossbow.")

Playing a summon monkey used to be a strong option for nonstandard wizards, but the Summoner class has almost squeezed these guys out of existence. That said, a Conjurer who invests early in Augment Summoning can still be fun to play, and your Dex and +1 on attacks will make your Acid Dart (special conjurer power) viable well into midlevels.

Doug M.

[LazarX]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Playing a summon monkey used to be a strong option for nonstandard wizards, but the Summoner class has almost squeezed these guys out of existence. That said, a Conjurer who invests early in Augment Summoning can still be fun to play, and your Dex and +1 on attacks will make your Acid Dart (special conjurer power) viable well into midlevels.

Doug M.

Summoning did not get less effective for wizards just because a shiny new class walked around the corner.

[Douglas Muir 406]

LazarX wrote:

Summoning did not get less effective for wizards just because a shiny new class walked around the corner.

It kinda did, though. If you want to play a summon monkey, a summoner just does it better.

This inevitably segues into the "yes but a wizard can do OTHER stuff" line, which is totally true, but not relevant to the person who just wants to summon lots of badass creatures to gnaw on her enemies.

Anyway! We can totally have this discussion in another thread. No point in having it here unless the OP says "hm, maybe I should play a conjurer who summons". Which he doesn't seem to be doing.

Doug M.

[LazarX]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Summoning did not get less effective for wizards just because a shiny new class walked around the corner.

It kinda did, though. If you want to play a summon monkey, a summoner just does it better.

It doesn't matter who does it better, just as long as it gets the job done. A Summoner summons because that's what he does. A Wizard summons so he can get a breather to do something else.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Just for the heck of it, here's a low-level conjurer. Start with 15 Int and 14 Dex (16 racial). Yes, 15 Int, shut up, he's a conjurer.

1 Point blank shot, to beef up Acid Dart. The Dart is useless at high levels but at low and mid levels it's pretty handy. It's a ranged touch attack at +5 (+3 Dex +1 feat +1 halfling)for d6+1 damage. At first level that's not half bad. The major drawback is the short range -- your squishy little wizard will have to close within 30' to use it. So get Mage Armor to give you AC 18 -- very respectable at this level -- and keep your friend Fighty McMeatshield between you and harm. For your other three spells pick the usual low-level utility spells.

2 take Summon Monster I. Conjurer = 50% extra duration on Summons, no effect at first level but now it kicks in. Your acid dart is now a touch attack at +6 for d6+2, and your pal the evil-smiting celestial dog will hang around for three rounds.

3 Spell Focus (Conjuration). Take Summon Monster II and either Web or Glitterdust as your two new spells. Your save DCs on these will be 15, which is OK at this level and will soon go higher.

4 Take the other of Web or Glitterdust. Increase Int to 16. Spell DCs are now 16 for Web and Glitterdust. (See, I said it would go higher.) Your acid dart is now a touch attack at +7 for d6+3, and your new friend the small elemental will hang around for six rounds.

5 Two feats! Augment Summoning for sure. Take Summon Monster III and Sleet Storm. First magic item purchase: Headband of Intellect +2. Get those save DCs up to 17 for conjuration, 16 for everything else. For your second feat I'd consider either Improved Initiative (since your summoned creatures share your Init), Dodge (because you are squishy) or an item creation feat.

N.B., I'm not claiming this as an awesome or optimized build! More like a decent build that could be fun to play if that's your thing.

cheers,

Doug M.

[Douglas Muir 406]

...which raises a question: what would be an equivalent build for Abjurer (which is what the OP said he wants to play)?

I have the impression that abjuration spells, especially at low levels, are mostly buffs or semibuffs that don't involve spell DCs. (Yes, there are exceptions. I said mostly.) Hm, let's check. [opens SRD] Here's a list of popular abjuration spells from the first three levels:

1
Abjuring Step
Alarm
Endure Elements
Protection from X
Shield
Shock Shield

2

Arcane Lock
Miserable Pity
Protection from Arrows
Resist Energy

3

Dispel Magic
Magic Circle against X
Resist Energy, Communal
Protection from Energy

4

Dimension Anchor
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser
Protection from Energy, communal
Remove Curse
Stoneskin

Out of 19 spells, only one (Miserable Pity) uses a save. In fact, if you look at ALL the abjuration spells in the first three levels, there are about 35 of them, and only three or four seem to call for saves.

Tentative conclusion: you could build an abjurer with relatively low Int -- say, Int 15 or even 14 at 1st level -- and it wouldn't hurt you much. And if you're playing a halfling or other race without an Int bonus, and using a point build, starting with 14 instead of 16 nets you 5 build points to put somewhere else.

That suggests a build direction: an abjurer who never boosts his Int all that high, but instead invests in dex. He buffs the party, buffs his own AC into the stratosphere, and engages the enemy with close range spells and ranged touch attacks. At first level he could easily hit AC 24 (+4 mage armor +4 shield +4 dex +1 protective ward power +1 size) -- he could pump that to 25 if he has an 18 dex at first level, or 26 if he takes Dodge.

That's far over the top, but I can imagine a more conservative build that would still give impressive ACs at low and middle levels.

Doug M.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

LazarX wrote:

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Small size+ Perm reduce person+ small familiar (meaning either improved or a pig) = free mount.

Of course you can also cast spells on a familiar that you couldn't another species. So a raven permanently enlarged + halfling permanently reduced = flying mount. Will have to check the strength issues, but that's not difficult to overcome with magic (See mule back chords).

Same concept, but with a pseudo dragon familiar = Halfling dragon rider. ;-)

Mule back cords are not going to overcome the PHYSICAL limitations of your extremely small size, such as your spellbook being physically larger than you are.

RAI, I agree. However in a game with magical strength enhancements a super narurally strong halfling can carry a frost giant around if he wants.

[nosig]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

I don't use enchantment very much. Hardly ever really.

Sleep - 1st level attack spell .... But I used to run an Enchanter

[Douglas Muir 406]

Tentative build: Halfling wizard (abjurer). Start with 15 Int and 14 Dex (16 racial). Opposing are two of enchantment, illusion, or necromancy.

1 Dodge. Protection from Evil, Mage Armor, a couple of utility spells -- Color Spray, Sleep, Summon Monster 1, or such. You carry a light crossbow, but already it's clear you're not about offense. You walk around at AC 16 (size, dodge, dex), boosted to 20 before entering a dungeon. Can throw protective ward (+1 to AC for self and allies within 10') several times per day, though its short range and limited duration (2 rounds!) make it pretty conditional, especially since it's a standard action.

2 Pick up shield and another utility spell. Shield is a miserable 2 minutes duration but it's good to have when facing a boss or in an unexpected combat late in the day after your mage armor is gone. Pick up Reduce Person -- it's just a solid for you. +2 Dex, +1 AC and +1 to attack? The only drawbacks are -2 Str (have the barbarian carry all your stuff) and short duration (1 min/level).

3 Honestly not sure what's the best feat here, but Improved Initiative can't hurt -- get your Init up to +7 so you'll usually go first, activating your ward or throwing buffs on the party before the bad guys can act. The second level abjuration spells are not great but you can't go too wrong with Resist Energy. Consider investing in a no-DC offensive spell (Summon Monster or the like) to boost your offensive contribution. Also, depending on your opposing school, look at buffs that stack with yours, like Blur, Cat's Grace, Defending Bone, False Life and Invisibility.,

4 Put that point into Int -- even if you don't cast a lot of spells with save DCs, you'll want that bonus spell next level, and also it will increase the duration on your protective ward. Mage Armor now lasts four hours so you're often walking around with AC 20; Shield can boost that to 24 for four minutes. You may now start eagerly eyeing that Lesser Metamagic Rod (extend) -- maybe not yet, but soon.

5 This is a very good level for this build. Two feats, third level spells (and there are some good third level abjuration spells -- Dispel Magic, Magic Circle), Summon Monster III (good monster list), and several good buffs that stack with yours (Ablative Barrier, Displacement.) (Unfortunately not Haste; its +1 AC bonus is a Dodge bonus. Still a fine spell anyway as a party buff.) Also, your protective ward jumps to +2. Also, you can now afford that LMR! Suddenly you can have Mage Armor for 10 hours, Shield for 10 minutes, and if you summon creatures they last for 10 rounds. You may also be able to afford a +2 Dex boosting item -- those are 4,000 gp, the rod was 3,000, and in theory you should have around 10,000 at this point.

6 You get that spiffy energy-absorbing ability at this level, which is definitely the best thing about the abjurer. First 18 points of anything? You laugh at fireballs and barely flinch at dragon breath. You can also afford a +2 Int-boosting item, so you'll get that 4th level bonus spell.

-- I have to say, the more I look at protective ward the crappier it looks. Very short range, limited duration, costs a standard action, AND it's a deflection bonus -- meaning it doesn't stack with Protection from Evil, rings, or various other things. Not completely useless, but pretty situational, and definitely inferior to some of the other specialist powers.

That said, at 5th level the halfling will walk around most of the day with AC 21, enter the dungeon with Mage Armor and Shield up for AC 25, and can briefly get up to AC 31 or 32 with some combination of Reduce Person, Cat's Grace and either Protection from Evil or protective ward. That's not bad. You'll usually need to balance buffing yourself and helping the party, mind.

This is a rough sketch by a guy who's never played anything like this, so I'm sure it's possible to do better. Thoughts?

Doug M.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Thinking about this, two things come to mind.

1) This could be the basis of a truly obnoxious recurring NPC. He's not unhittable, by any means -- fighter-type PCs will be keeping up with his AC -- but as part of an enemy party, or as buff-backer for a group of monsters, he could make the PCs pretty crazy.

2) While this seems like a totally playable character, the high number of "rounds/level" and "minutes/level" buffs mean that he's very much a 15 Minute Adventuring Day kinda guy. You're going to be hurrying the party along a lot -- "let's kill all the monsters while my buffs are still on, we can come back and search for loot later".

Doug M.

[LazarX]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Thinking about this, two things come to mind.

2) While this seems like a totally playable character, the high number of "rounds/level" and "minutes/level" buffs mean that he's very much a 15 Minute Adventuring Day kinda guy. You're going to be hurrying the party along a lot -- "let's kill all the monsters while my buffs are still on, we can come back and search for loot later".

Doug M.

Short buffs do not make for a 15 min adventuring day. Like all other spellcasters it's a matter of strategic preparation and use.

[Shadowfoot]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Summoning did not get less effective for wizards just because a shiny new class walked around the corner.

It kinda did, though. If you want to play a summon monkey, a summoner just does it better.

This inevitably segues into the "yes but a wizard can do OTHER stuff" line, which is totally true, but not relevant to the person who just wants to summon lots of badass creatures to gnaw on her enemies.

Anyway! We can totally have this discussion in another thread. No point in having it here unless the OP says "hm, maybe I should play a conjurer who summons". Which he doesn't seem to be doing.

Doug M.

As the OP I can say I will NOT be playing a conjurer who summons.

[Shadowfoot]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Tentative build: Halfling wizard (abjurer). Start with 15 Int and 14 Dex (16 racial). Opposing are two of enchantment, illusion, or necromancy.

Nice! Thanks looks effective as long as we rush.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Shadowfoot wrote:

Nice! Thanks looks effective as long as we rush.

Thanks!

Staring at it again, I do notice that he's pretty vulnerable to grappling, especially as he goes up levels and his BAB falls behind. Mage Armor and Shield don't affect CMD, so he'll start with something like 12 (+3 Dex +1 Dodge -1 Str -1 size) at first level. That's pretty feeble, and it won't get better soon. So watch out for grapplers, because they will laugh at your wonderful AC. Throw a rank or two into Escape Artist, maybe -- there has to be a trait that gives you this as a class skill, which would give you +7 on your grapple-escaping check for a single rank. Then at 7th level, pick up Dimension Door. It's verbal only, so you can escape from grapples with a word, and it's a handy spell for you anyhow -- lets you blip around the battlefield, moving your area-effect buffs where they're most needed.

It looks like a viable build, but I'd be curious to know how it plays.

cheers,

Doug M.

[Cheapy]

Check out the Go Unnoticed feat as well.

With the new Stealth playtest rules (you do want to help playtest the new rules, right? :) ), the feat allows you to hide at the beginning of combat, and stay hidden.

Somehow.

[Mike Schneider]

LazarX wrote:

Mule back cords are not going to overcome the PHYSICAL limitations of your extremely small size, such as your spellbook being physically larger than you are.

That's what haversacks and Mage Hand are for.

= = = = =

Because I love multiclassing; and because everything is always trying eat tasty halflings....

STR-05
DEX+16
CON:14
INT:17 (all bumps)
WIS:14
CHA+09

01 monk1 [Flowing archetype][Redirection][Improved Reposition], Agile Maneuvers
02 wiza1 1st
03 wiza2 Weapon Finesse
04 wiza3 2nd, INT>18
05 wiza4 Deflect Arrows
06 wiza5 3rd, FEAT

Features:
* Monk skill set to sink all those points into (Escape Artist, yay!).
* Monk AC buffs.
* Flurry for two attempts to deliver a touch-attack.
* Immediate action to reposition enemy melee attacker (and you threaten unarmed).
* Deflect rays!
* CMD double-dips dexterity instead of including strength.
* Evasion available with monk2 if you want it; also another feat.

[Jiggy]

Mike Schneider wrote:

* CMD double-dips dexterity instead of including strength.

I don't see anything in your suggested build that alters CMD in any way whatsoever.

EDIT: And if you meant CMB and are thinking Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse will "stack", you're mistaken. For any weapon-using maneuvers, they are redundant.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Mike Schneider wrote:

Because I love multiclassing; and because everything is always trying eat tasty halflings....

STR-05
DEX+16
CON:14
INT:17 (all bumps)
WIS:14
CHA+09

Is this a point buy? 20 points? Because this build won't work so well with a 15 point buy, I think.

Mike Schneider wrote:

01 monk1 [Flowing archetype][Redirection][Improved Reposition], Agile Maneuvers

Wait wait. Flowing archetype gives you Redirection, which lets you make a reposition or trip attempt as an immediate action if attacked. Succeed and the enemy must save or be sickened, in addition to being tripped or repositioned.

Nice -- but you still suffer AoOs from doing this. Improved Reposition lets avoid the AoO, but that's a separate feat. So you're taking Improved Reposition as your monk bonus feat, and Agile Maneuvers as your first level feat?

I guess that makes sense. If you're attacked, you can instantly lash out with a Reposition, with a CMB of [BAB+Dex bonus+2 feat]. At first level that will be +5, which is not bad. And if you succeed, the enemy must immediately make a DC 11 Reflex save or be sickened for one round.

Mike Schneider wrote:

02 wiza1 1st
03 wiza2 Weapon Finesse

In what, and why?

Mike Schneider wrote:

04 wiza3 2nd, INT>18
05 wiza4 Deflect Arrows

Don't you have spells (and/or a crazy high AC) for that?

Mike Schneider wrote:

* Monk skill set to sink all those points into (Escape Artist, yay!).

Roger that.

Mike Schneider wrote:

* Monk AC buffs.

For some reason I thought the Monk's AC was deflection. Nope -- straight bonus. So you get +2 to AC and CMD. Sweet.

Mike Schneider wrote:

* Flurry for two attempts to deliver a touch-attack.

Ho. That's a new one for me. Nice.

Mike Schneider wrote:

* Immediate action to reposition enemy melee attacker (and you threaten unarmed).

Well, your odds aren't great. But with your AC, this isn't a huge issue.

Mike Schneider wrote:

* CMD double-dips dexterity instead of including strength.

Are you sure? Agile maneuvers gives you Dex on CMB instead of Str, but you're still stuck using Str on CMD. You just get to add your monk AC bonus as well. So in this case, +2 Monk and -2 Str cancel each other out, leaving you with a CMD of BAB +Dex bonus -1 for size.

Mike Schneider wrote:

* Evasion available with monk2 if you want it; also another feat.

I'd beeline straight for the "avoid 3x level energy damage", myself.

How does the catching rays thing work?

Doug M.

[Jiggy]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Mike Schneider wrote:

02 wiza1 1st
03 wiza2 Weapon Finesse

In what, and why?

You don't choose a weapon for Weapon Finesse. It applies to all eligible weapons.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Jiggy wrote:

You don't choose a weapon for Weapon Finesse. It applies to all eligible weapons.

Hangover from 3.5.

So I guess he wants the Finesse for touch attacks. But wouldn't *ranged* touch attacks be the way to go with this guy? Why put the wizard into combat if you don't have to?

Doug M.

[Mike Schneider]

Jiggy wrote:

Mike Schneider wrote:

* CMD double-dips dexterity instead of including strength.

I don't see anything in your suggested build that alters CMD in any way whatsoever

Double-dipping DEX in inherent to Agile Maneuvers (STR is no longer factored at all; DEX calculates for CMB, then is added again for CMD.

Quote:

EDIT: And if you meant CMB and are thinking Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse will "stack", you're mistaken. For any weapon-using maneuvers, they are redundant.

I took both because you can't apply Weapon Finesse to repositions (or other non-weapon maneuvers; i.e., as if by wearing a Grappler's Mask); Weapon Finesse is for applying touch-attack spells.

...Of course halflings are still small, and eat a CMB/CMD penalty for that.

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

05 wiza4 Deflect Arrows

Don't you have spells (and/or a crazy high AC) for that?

Why take chances? If you run into an assassin archer who can unload 30-50 points of damage with just his Manyshot (not counting the other arrows), stopping that bad boy is bloody nice when you're stuck with puny wizard hit-dice and you're not playing a CON-maximized build. (Suffice to say if that archer is also an arcane-caster, he could have True Strike lined up on that Manyshot, guaranteeing it'd burrow right through your AC no matter how good it is 95% of the time.)

Deflect Arrows is one of the very best feats in the game as it scales massively with level and is automatic and doesn't cost an action. Imagine getting hit, and then saying, "I have an ability which lets me instantaneously heal all of that damage without an opposed check!" -- how awesome would that be?

Quote:

But wouldn't *ranged* touch attacks be the way to go with this guy? Why put the wizard into combat if you don't have to?

Well, provided the charge/grab monster doesn't mind you zapping it all day, that's what you'll do.

Usually they mind.

[Jiggy]

Mike Schneider wrote:

Double-dipping DEX in inherent to Agile Maneuvers (STR is no longer factored at all; DEX calculates for CMB, then is added again for CMD.

...Are you under the impression that CMD is calculated from your CMB and therefore anything affecting the latter will affect the former? Because that's not how it works. They're two separate stats, calculated independently of each other.

If that's NOT what you're thinking, then you simply need to re-read Agile Maneuvers. ;)

[wraithstrike]

Jiggy wrote:

Mike Schneider wrote:

Double-dipping DEX in inherent to Agile Maneuvers (STR is no longer factored at all; DEX calculates for CMB, then is added again for CMD.

...Are you under the impression that CMD is calculated from your CMB and therefore anything affecting the latter will affect the former? Because that's not how it works. They're two separate stats, calculated independently of each other.

If that's NOT what you're thinking, then you simply need to re-read Agile Maneuvers. ;)

IIRC CMD=CMB+10+other modifiers so if dex is replacing str it should allow a double dip.

[Jiggy]

wraithstrike wrote:

IIRC CMD=CMB+10+other modifiers so if dex is replacing str it should allow a double dip.

Nope. The formula you cite is nowhere in the rules ever.

It's slang/shorthand that's handy for bringing a 3.5er into PF if their character isn't going to be using maneuvers and you just want to get their character legal. But it's not how CMD is actually calculated.

Unfortunately, the first person takes it as shorthand and passes it to the second person who takes it as the norm and passes it to the third person who takes it as the rule and passes it to the fourth person... You get the idea.

Whenever someone tells you how a rule works, 9 times out of 10 they're either citing the shorthand they told themselves so they could remember it when they first read it, or else they're reciting what they were told by someone else who was citing the shorthand they told themselves so they could remember it when they first read it.

This is why everyone should make a habit of noting any unfamiliar rule they encounter and looking it up themselves later.

/rant

The rule:

The REAL rules wrote:

Combat Maneuver Defense: Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers. A creature's CMD is determined using the following formula:

CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier

Note the total absence of any reference to CMB whatsoever. Altering one does not inherently alter the other.

[wraithstrike]

I think the issue is that people look at CMD as [str or dex mod] for that ability, which is how it gets short-handed. That is definitely what was in my mind, but the RAW disagrees with my memory, and the RAW version does stop double dipping.

[Mike Schneider]

Jiggy wrote:

...Are you under the impression that CMD is calculated from your CMB and therefore anything affecting the latter will affect the former? Because that's not how it works. They're two separate stats, calculated independently of each other.

Otherwise reliable opinions differ, so methinks that should be FAQ'd.

(Q. Have you ever tried to grapple a ferret when it's running up your pants? Almost impossible.)

[Jiggy]

wraithstrike wrote:

I think the issue is that people look at CMD as [str or dex mod] for that ability, which is how it gets short-handed. That is definitely what was in my mind, but the RAW disagrees with my memory, and the RAW version does stop double dipping.

Shorthand is the bane of my existence. Even back when I was regularly giving official answers to Magic: the Gathering rules questions on another forum (tested-and-certified Rules Advisor and everything), an alarming number of questions were based solely on someone treating their own mental shorthand as being the rule/card text. I kid you not: I have taken judge calls at tournaments where the person's finger was touching the part of the card that had the explicit answer to the question they were asking.

/nostalgia-rant

[Xaaon of Korvosa]

LazarX wrote:

Shadowfoot wrote:

How effective are halfling wizards? I'm thinking of an abjurer and wondering what race would be best. I'm expecting lots of travel in the first 10 levels.

They might fail Treantmonk's test of optimization, but they can still be fun and effective. Heck one of the wizard iconics in Ultimate magic is a halfling. :)

Key thing is... think of your other strengths as a halfling. You may find some very good things there. Dragon magazine ran an article on hafling wizards a long while back. It's worth digging up even for Pathfinder.

That's OK I would never ever play a character using Treantmonk's optimization...and if anyone ever tried it in my game, they better have detailed encumbrance listed, cuz that 5 or 7 Str is gonna hurt...

[Jiggy]

Mike Schneider wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

...Are you under the impression that CMD is calculated from your CMB and therefore anything affecting the latter will affect the former? Because that's not how it works. They're two separate stats, calculated independently of each other.

Otherwise reliable opinions differ, so methinks that should be FAQ'd.

An unofficial site showing you a handy shortcut is not grounds for declaring unambiguous Core Rules FAQ-worthy.

[Mike Schneider]

Turn-about is fair play: declaring core rules to be unambiguous is not grounds to maintain a discrepancy shouldn't be FAQ-worthy.

(IMO there's plenty of precedent for arbitrary, contradictory stuff in this game. E.g., applicable weapons to trip/disarm and all that, which was changed just recently.)

[warren Burgess]

Does anyone remember the Book/Movie Willow that was about a halfling Wizard ;)
But In all I agree with most of the previous post properly build any race can be a great wizard

[Jiggy]

Mike Schneider wrote:

Turn-about is fair play: declaring core rules to be unambiguous is not grounds to maintain a discrepancy shouldn't be FAQ-worthy.

Then how about this:

The official Core Rules give the exact formula for calculating CMD.

The SRD is not the rules. It contains the rules, but it also contains other stuff (like helpful sidebars and charts). Remember, Paizo does not run or manage the SRD. The folks who do run the SRD copy/paste the rules and then add their own aids. Being in the SRD does not constitute being a rule.

Now, if you can find me:
• Rules text,
• FAQ text,
• or developer commentary
stating that CMD is derived from CMB, then we can argue conflicting rules or designer intent or whathaveyou. But so long as the only "contradiction" is between the actual rules and a separate entity's Helpful Shortcut, there's really nothing to discuss.

[3.5 Loyalist]

FallingIcicle wrote:

Halfings make great wizards. Their small size is pretty much nothing but a benefit. It's not like they really suffer from the lack of strength or reduced speed (at least not when you can conjure mounts or fly).

The truth is, pretty much any race can do well as a wizard. Even those with a -2 penalty to Intelligence can do well. It's only a 1 or 2 point difference in save DCs and a couple bonus spells per day difference. Just make sure you start with at least a 14 Int and you'll be fine as long as you put all of your level-up ability points into Int. Wizards have the means to overcome whatever weaknesses they may have due to race.

Sometimes, it's more fun to play a less optimal race. I once played a Kobold Wizard and when I told the rest of my group what I was planning on playing they all looked at me in shock. Why would you want to be a kobold, they asked? One player even laughingly suggested that I should get a bonus level (the opposite of a level adjustment) for playing such a weak race! But it turned out to be one of the most enjoyable characters I've ever played.

So, don't listen to what the min/maxers say. If you think a halfling wizard would be a fun character to play, go for it!

I agree. I've had the most fun, with non-optimised characters. You spend less time worrying about making it all fit and making the best character, and have fun instead doing crazy stuff/having a good time.

My low wis barb/fighter in a heavy spellcasting game was great, and lasted quite a long time. Even passed some will saves with his 7 wisdom.

On Thursday I start a game as a 7 dex scout with great str and wisdom, and zen archery. Ha ha ha.

Yeah, it is great fun not playing the most optimaly builds, not taking the most optimal races for what you are doing.

[Jiggy]

Re: Agile Maneuvers
I contacted the good folks of the SRD and informed them of the confusion caused by their "Just So You Know" box. Problem solved.

[Mike Schneider]

Good. (I generally don't care what the rules are so long as everyone is on the same page.)