Self explanatory? Allow for players to play the DM. Create an awesome tool so DM's can quickly generate and populate dungeons(or even wilderness areas?) to bring players through, and then run.
The main problem with player made instances is one of balance. Some skrubs will just design them as a way of giving themselves free overpowered loot. I suppose you could automatically generate drops based of of each monsters Challenge Rating but I dunno. /shrug
Goblin Squad Member
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Why not just have your clan build your dungeon and leave it abandoned? Hopefully, it would then be moved into by mobs.
If you do not like this idea I think it illustrates a split I see forming in this community between one crowd who wants PFO to a tool to replicate online all aspects of PF, including those of the DM. The second group is looking at PFO as an invitation to make characters in a PF-based game with the devs as the DM. Of course my suggestion up top is based upon my interpretation of the information given us that the later is correct.
As mentioned by others, I just see too many problems with including player based content. One, there will always be limitations and people will get upset about those. Two, there will always be those who want to build a Twilight scenario...that has nothing to do with the PF campaign. Three, and perhaps the worst, there will be those who use it to power-level. One solution, like that used in the campaign builder in Saga of Ryzom is to disallow the earning of experience in these instances, but then they no longer feel like part of the world.
Instead of creating it out of the blue, what about building it over time as you play some kind of evil/outlaw character.
As times goes by you can build it larger and have to handle good characters looking for loot...
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Goblin Squad Member
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This topic falls squarely under "underpromise and overdeliver". We have big ideas about how to do something like this but until we're sure they could be done, and we know roughly when they could be developed and released we're not going to speculate on the potential.
But trust us, we get it.
Then this runs the problem of "Walk to end of cave, win +5000XP" trash caves
In response to general criticisms of this nature:
Dungeons could have any number of criterion to limit behavior like this. Monsters would have to come from a standardized list, dropping standardized loot of some kind. DM's would have limited choices, but enough to have editorial/thematic influence. Minimum room numbers or square footage and control of CR/XP/Gold budgets and distribution would prevent the massive room of loot and creatures. There will always be some kind of abuse in a game of this type, but I am certain the devs would be able to come up with ways to control player collusion while producing a viable creative tool set(assuming this is something they would want to do).
Then this runs the problem of "Walk to end of cave, win +5000XP" trash cavesIn response to general criticisms of this nature:
Dungeons could have any number of criterion to limit behavior like this. Monsters would have to come from a standardized list, dropping standardized loot of some kind. DM's would have limited choices, but enough to have editorial/thematic influence. Minimum room numbers or square footage and control of CR/XP/Gold budgets and distribution would prevent the massive room of loot and creatures. There will always be some kind of abuse in a game of this type, but I am certain the devs would be able to come up with ways to control player collusion while producing a viable creative tool set(assuming this is something they would want to do).
Agreed. Here are my thoughts:
1) Give players a separate GUI which allows us to select all the aspects of a dungeon (monsters, treasure, square footage, ambiance, etc) from a standardized list. However, treasure options should not be “better” than those which can be crafted by players.2) OR, It would be great to see dungeon creation in PO to simulate a combination of battlemap creation from “Halo: Reach” and the sheer versatility of “Mindcraft”. But, I suspect the coding for this method would be that nasty kind of evil…and, so much versatility may turn away some players.
3) Limit the options of dungeon creation based on a PC’s level. As a player levels their character, they are granted new options for their dungeon. This would prevent a 1st level PC from creating a 20th lvl dungeon.
4) OR, in total contrast, if PO is going to use a non-linear, skill based leveling system, THEN limit the options for dungeon creation based on the experiences of that character. So, if a PC has not come in contact with (i.e. battled and won against) a dire wolf, than their dungeon cannot include a dire wolf. This in itself would limit dungeons by a PC’s “level” and it would promote travel within the “world”.
5) Or, as a PC travels, they can knock out and “capture” monsters to put into their dungeon. Heck, “monster trainer” could even be a separate profession or character build. This would also answer the question, “How DID that dragon get in here?”
6) Once a dungeon is complete, give the creator the option to run through it immediately to see if it is what they wanted to create. This would promote good, fun dungeons. Afterwards, the player should be disallowed to enter the dungeon of their crafting OR disallowed to benefit from the rewards (XP and loot).
7) Dungeons created by player should be allowed to be modified in some way by either the player that created the dungeon OR a combination of other players, roaming NPC monsters, etc.
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Honestly, all you'd really need is an algorithm that determined how powerful the monsters are that the players used. Don't let them assign specific rewards; give three reward classes - small, medium, and large - and then have these randomly generated, with values that depend on size of dungeon, the quality and quantity of traps and monsters, and the distance of those monsters from the treasure.
Someone wants to make a dungeon that you walk in 200 ft, deal with no monsters or traps, and find a large treasure? Enjoy those 3 gold pieces. The crafter adds a great wyrm dragon to the room, suddenly the large treasure shoots up to a few thousand gold pieces and some magic items.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The upcoming EQ2 expansion (Age of Discovery) is allowing exactly this. To what extent or how they are working the logistics, I don't know (I think the release date is in a few days), but it will at least allow for the examination of a predecessor system if PFO decides to go this route.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The upcoming EQ2 expansion (Age of Discovery) is allowing exactly this. To what extent or how they are working the logistics, I don't know (I think the release date is in a few days), but it will at least allow for the examination of a predecessor system if PFO decides to go this route.
I actually realize from reading this thread that a large number of people here haven't ever actually -played- MMOs before. I can name three MMO's that allow player created dungeons (City of Heroes/Villains, Star Trek Online, and Saga of Ryzom) and another on the way (Neverwinter).
The three that have this feature it's been used to create some fantastic story telling devices that are balanced and lots of fun. Maybe everyone should do some research on what's been done before instinctively shooting down other people's ideas.
Goblinworks Founder
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The upcoming EQ2 expansion (Age of Discovery) is allowing exactly this. To what extent or how they are working the logistics, I don't know (I think the release date is in a few days), but it will at least allow for the examination of a predecessor system if PFO decides to go this route.I actually realize from reading this thread that a large number of people here haven't ever actually -played- MMOs before. I can name three MMO's that allow player created dungeons (City of Heroes/Villains, Star Trek Online, and Saga of Ryzom) and another on the way (Neverwinter).
The three that have this feature it's been used to create some fantastic story telling devices that are balanced and lots of fun. Maybe everyone should do some research on what's been done before instinctively shooting down other people's ideas.
The foundry developers from STO are directly working on the Neverwinter project now. They would definitely be the ones to watch as I can see them paving a new path using the original foundry design.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The foundry developers from STO are directly working on the Neverwinter project now. They would definitely be the ones to watch as I can see them paving a new path using the original foundry design.The upcoming EQ2 expansion (Age of Discovery) is allowing exactly this. To what extent or how they are working the logistics, I don't know (I think the release date is in a few days), but it will at least allow for the examination of a predecessor system if PFO decides to go this route.I actually realize from reading this thread that a large number of people here haven't ever actually -played- MMOs before. I can name three MMO's that allow player created dungeons (City of Heroes/Villains, Star Trek Online, and Saga of Ryzom) and another on the way (Neverwinter).
The three that have this feature it's been used to create some fantastic story telling devices that are balanced and lots of fun. Maybe everyone should do some research on what's been done before instinctively shooting down other people's ideas.
Yup, been following the game closely. Not happy about a number of decisions but I'm interested to see how the new Foundry will work. I've spent the better part of the last decade building (and DMing/running worlds) for Neverwinter Nights and love any time the community is able to contribute material to a game.
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I removed a post and a reply to it. There is enough to argue over in this forum without dragging the edition wars into it.