I don’t know if this has been done, but I thought I would post my version of the main-gauche (especially since I just did a conversion of the swashbuckler). Does it try to do too much?
Master Arminas
Light Exotic Weapon
Parrying Dagger
Cost: 15 gold
Damage (S): 1d3
Damage (M): 1d4
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range: 10 feet
Weight: 1 lb.
Type: Piercing
Special: Disarm
Description: Also known as a main-gauche, the parrying dagger has a long, thin blade and is normally crafted with a basket hilt. When this weapon is wielded as the second weapon in two-weapon fighting, the wielder gains a +1 shield bonus to his armor class. The weapon's light weight makes it very suitable for counter-attacks against foes that leave themselves open to attack. When used to conduct an attack of opportunity, the wielder of a parrying dagger does not suffer the normal two-weapon fighting penalties when he makes the attack with a parrying dagger, but his damage modifier is still 1/2 his Strength modifier. Although the parrying dagger can be thrown, the weapon is very unwieldy when used in such a fashion, and the wielder suffers a -2 penalty to hit (in addition to the normal penalties for attacks at greater thant he first range increment).
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I don’t know if this has been done, but I thought I would post my version of the main-gauche (especially since I just did a conversion of the swashbuckler). Does it try to do too much?
Master Arminas
Light Exotic Weapon:Parrying Dagger
Cost: 15 gold
Damage (S): 1d3
Damage (M): 1d4
Critical: 18-20/x2
Range: 10 feet
Weight: 1 lb.
Type: Piercing
Special: Disarm
Description: Also known as a main-gauche, the parrying dagger has a long, thin blade and is normally crafted with a basket hilt. When this weapon is wielded as the second weapon in two-weapon fighting, the wielder gains a +1 shield bonus to his armor class. Although the parrying dagger can be thrown, the wielder suffers twice the normal range penalties for each increment, as well as a -2 penalty to hit in the first range increment.
I would lower the critical range to 19-20/x2, since it is basically a dagger with better hand protection. I would also change the penalty to -2 for all range attacks and not worry about the increments. I really like the +1 to the shield bonus. Another facet of parrying daggers it the quick counter attack when an enemy presents an opening. Why not give the parrying dagger a +1 to attacks of opportunity if wielded in the off hand? Better chance to hit, but loses some of the Strength that could be applied to the hit.
I don't see it as too much. Ultimately it winds up being a +1 shield bonus to ac for a feat (Exotic weapon prof).
I think if you intend to make it harder to throw that it'd just be easier to remove the range increment to begin with than to add the bit about increased penalties, but that's just me.
Suggestions are now incorporated.
MA
Alternatively, drop damage by 1 category, increase crit range to 18-20 and make it a weapon of the rapier's category.
As mentioned above, drop the range increment altogether; the main gauche doesn't appear (nor was designed) as a ranged weapon. Let those who reeeeealy want to throw it do so as an improvised weapon.
'findel
So this, right?
Parrying Dagger
Cost: 15 gold
Damage (S): 1d3
Damage (M): 1d4
Critical: 18-20/x2
Range: N/A
Weight: 1 lb.
Type: Piercing
Special: Disarm
Description: Also known as a main-gauche, the parrying dagger has a long, thin blade and is normally crafted with a basket hilt. When this weapon is wielded as the second weapon in two-weapon fighting, the wielder gains a +1 shield bonus to his armor class (that stacks with the bonus granted by the feat Two Weapon Defense). The weapon's light weight makes it very suitable for counter-attacks against foes that leave themselves open to attack. When used to conduct an attack of opportunity, the wielder of a parrying dagger does not suffer the normal two-weapon fighting penalties when he makes the attack with a parrying dagger, but his damage modifier is still 1/2 his Strength modifier.
This weapon makes conducting disarm attacks easier, granting a +2 bonus on all Combat Maneuver checks to disarm an opponent and granting the wielder a +2 bonus to his CMD against disarm attempts made against him. The parrying dagger is not design to be thrown, but a character with the Throw Anything feat can do so, using the listed damage and critical range of the parrying dagger, rather than that of an improvised weapon.
So this, right?
Parrying Dagger
Cost: 15 gold
Damage (S): 1d3
Damage (M): 1d4
Critical: 18-20/x2
Range: N/A
Weight: 1 lb.
Type: Piercing
Special: Disarm
In order to be 'legit', it either should be a d4 damage 19-20 weapon OR a d3 damage 18-20 weapon (reduce by 1 die category for small).
I can understand why the counter-attack ability of the main-gauche fits the weapon thematicly, but it seems a little odd to me in how it is implemented.
My main concern is that it might not be used, for example I would imagine that most characters using a main-gauche would normally make attacks of opportunity (AoO) with their primary hand weapon since, 1) it would have the same to hit as the main-gauche, 2) would probably have a larger damage die, 3) have the full str. modifier.
Another thing as written it seems to imply that a main-gauche never deals full str. damage on AoO, even when wielded in the primary hand.
I would suggest having the counter-attack ability allow the wielder to make one attack with the main-gauche and their primary weapon with the normal penalties for two weapon fighting when making AoO. Hopefully that wouldn't be too powerful.
Purely off-the-cuff suggestion: When dual-wielding and using a main-gauche, when you make a full attack, you gain an additional shield bonus equal to the number of attacks you do not make with the main-gauche.
That way, if you have TWF and don't attack with it, you get a +2 shield bonus, ITWF is +3, and GTWF is +4.
OK, Take 3.
Parrying Dagger
Cost: 15 gold
Damage (S): 1d3
Damage (M): 1d4
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range: N/A
Weight: 1 lb.
Type: Piercing
Special: Disarm
Description: Also known as a main-gauche, the parrying dagger has a long, thin blade and is normally crafted with a basket hilt. When this weapon is wielded as the second weapon in two-weapon fighting, the wielder gains a +1 shield bonus to his armor class (that stacks with the bonus granted by the feat Two Weapon Defense). The weapon's light weight makes it very suitable for counter-attacks against foes that leave themselves open to attack. If the wielder is using two-weapon fighting and wields the parrying dagger in his off-hand, he gains one bonus attack of opportunity per round. This bonus attack of opportunity must be taken with the parrying dagger and follows the rules for using two weapons in combat (including applying only one-half of the wielder's Strength bonus on rolls for damage).
This weapon makes conducting disarm attacks easier, granting a +2 bonus on all Combat Maneuver checks to disarm an opponent and granting the wielder a +2 bonus to his CMD against disarm attempts made against him. The parrying dagger is not design to be thrown, but a character with the Throw Anything feat can do so, using the listed damage and critical range of the parrying dagger, rather than that of an improvised weapon.
I like the new wording for the counter-attack ability of the main-gauche master arminas, a very good job IMO.
For something theoretical, if a character had combat reflexes (feat), or some other method of having multiple AoO per round, the current wording would prevent the counter-attack ability to be used again. Was this done to limit the power of counter-attack? I could see it going either way. I think it would be cool to have the exra attack for each AoO, after all it would take two feats to do that and they're still taking the penalties on the attack roll. Just a thought.
I intended for it to only be one bonus AoO each round; after all, this is just an exotic weapon, not a magical one! lol
Still, you can get to AoO per round w/o Combat Reflexes, and Dex+1+1 (right) with. So it ain't too shabby.
Master Arminas
I intended for it to only be one bonus AoO each round; after all, this is just an exotic weapon, not a magical one! lol
Still, you can get to AoO per round w/o Combat Reflexes, and Dex+1+1 (right) with. So it ain't too shabby.
Master Arminas
Not too shabby at all master arminas. I hope that you'll let everyone know how it works in play.
Thanks, ChaiGuy. I made if after doing a conversion of the 3.5 Complete Warrior Swashbucker, after I realized there is nothing like a main-gauche in Pathfinder Core.
Master Arminas
The listing of the disarm bonus in the weapon's description might be a bit excessive. Simply mentioning that it has the disarm quality ought to be enough, unless you are trying to give it an additional +2 to disarm for a net +4 (+2 of which doesn't specify that you have to use the main-gauche to do it). Also, the disarm quality doesn't give you a bonus to resist being disarmed as far as I'm aware (though I have been wrong before). The listing in the paragraph also doesn't specify if the unnamed bonus to resist disarming applies to all weapons being wielded or just the main-gauche (I'm guessing you mean the latter).
I like the concept of a fencer getting a bonus attack of opportunity... but should it come from the equipment itself? It seems to be a dagger with a basket hilt- any commoner that picks it up, though, suddenly gets a virtual Combat Reflexes feat, whether he's actually trying to fence or is two-weapon fighting with the main-gauche in his off hand and a pork shank in his main. It makes the weapon worth the exotic weapon proficiency and makes it desirable to use, but as it stands, the benefit is there without the feat too.
I'm wondering if a basket-hilt can't be made as a modification to existing one-handed weapons, like weapon straps or something. Fencers could use them as parrying shields, while other, more brutal character archetypes can use them like brass knuckles if the weapon gets sundered...
The listing of the disarm bonus in the weapon's description might be a bit excessive. Simply mentioning that it has the disarm quality ought to be enough, unless you are trying to give it an additional +2 to disarm for a net +4 (+2 of which doesn't specify that you have to use the main-gauche to do it). Also, the disarm quality doesn't give you a bonus to resist being disarmed as far as I'm aware (though I have been wrong before). The listing in the paragraph also doesn't specify if the unnamed bonus to resist disarming applies to all weapons being wielded or just the main-gauche (I'm guessing you mean the latter).
I like the concept of a fencer getting a bonus attack of opportunity... but should it come from the equipment itself? It seems to be a dagger with a basket hilt- any commoner that picks it up, though, suddenly gets a virtual Combat Reflexes feat, whether he's actually trying to fence or is two-weapon fighting with the main-gauche in his off hand and a pork shank in his main. It makes the weapon worth the exotic weapon proficiency and makes it desirable to use, but as it stands, the benefit is there without the feat too.
I'm wondering if a basket-hilt can't be made as a modification to existing one-handed weapons, like weapon straps or something. Fencers could use them as parrying shields, while other, more brutal character archetypes can use them like brass knuckles if the weapon gets sundered...
Just a +2 on disarm in total. The bonus against disarm should apply only to the main-gauche (parrying dagger), not other weapons. I thought that if you didn't have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, you couldn't get any benefit of the special abilities of a weapon, such as the disarm, shield bonus, or bonus AoO. Am I wrong?
Master Arminas
I'm pretty certain that features of a weapon can be made use of whether you're proficient or not unless specifically stated. A hook is always better at tripping than a spike, for example. The -4 nonproficiency penalty still applies, though, which makes it unlikely to make an overwhelming difference unless you actually are proficient.
Things like the bastard sword's handedness, because it's specifically listed as only for those proficient, are exceptions that are listed in the description. That one, in my mind, sets a precedent that if it's not excluded in the description, it's fair game. You are perfectly within your rights to say it only gains the Disarm quality for those proficient in its use.
Edit: Wording. Bleh.
And Take 4.
Light Exotic Weapon
Main-gauche
Cost: 15 gold
Damage (S): 1d3
Damage (M): 1d4
Critical: 19-20/x2
Range: N/A
Weight: 1 lb.
Type: Piercing
Special: Disarm
Description: Also known as a parrying dagger, the main-gauche has a long, thin blade and is normally crafted with a basket hilt. When this weapon is wielded as the second weapon in two-weapon fighting, the wielder gains a +1 shield bonus to his armor class (that stacks with the bonus granted by the feat Two Weapon Defense). The weapon's light weight makes it very suitable for counter-attacks against foes that leave themselves open to attack. If the wielder is using two-weapon fighting and wields the main-gauche in his off-hand, he gains one bonus attack of opportunity per round. This bonus attack of opportunity must be taken with the main-gauche and follows the rules for using two weapons in combat (including applying only one-half of the wielder's Strength bonus on rolls for damage).
This weapon makes conducting disarm attacks easier (as the disarm special weapon quality) and also grants the wielder a +2 bonus to his CMD against disarm attempts made against the main-gauche itself. The main-gauche is not designed to be thrown, but a character with the Throw Anything feat can do so, using the listed damage and critical range of the main-gauche, rather than that of an improvised weapon.
While any character may pick up and use the main-gauche without spending a feat on proficiency (at a -4 penalty to hit), the shield bonus conferred by this weapon, the bonus on CMD versus disarm attacks conferred by this weapon, and the counter-attack bonus attack of opportunity conferred by this weapon require actual training in the proper use of the main-gauche. As such, these properties can only be used by a wielder who has selected the Exotic Weapon Feat for the main-gauche.
Is that worded better, Parka?
Master Arminas
Quite clear! I apologize if I come off badly, I'm working on my own material that may be released commercially later, so I've been involved with a lot of rules-fu lately. Count me in on people interested in how it works out!
You come off no worse than any editor I have ever spoken with (come to think about it . . . lol). No, seriously, honest raw critiques are why I post here. Thank you.
Master Arminas
Well, it worked out really well. The swashbuckler in my campaign has really taken to it. We tested it out over two gaming sessions in which I 'gave' him the exotic weapon proficiency feat for free. He liked it so much that he is planning on spending a feat to gain proficiency with the weapon now.
Thanks again for the all the advice and suggestions.
Master Arminas
While I generally like your write up of the Parrying Dagger/Main Gauche, I have to disagree on a few points. And I'm sure they're brought up for balance purposes, but I see it a bit differently.
The Main Gauche/Parrying dagger is ESSENTIALLY a short bladed version of the Rapier, with an emphasis on it's parrying quality (though the Rapier is an excellent parrying blade on it's own.) Since most of the weight of this weapon is in the hilt and guard portion, I'd just keep it at 2 lbs, like a Rapier (probably 1.5, but let's round up).
As it is designed in a fashion similar to a Rapier (designed for pokey-pokey fencing-style combat), but with a dagger-sized blade, I would say it is a 1d4 damage weapon (1d3 for small) with an 18-20 crit, LIKE the Rapier. To justify the extra combat bonuses this weapon provides, I would state that the shield bonus only applies in any round where the weapon is not used for attack purposes. Stick with the Improvised Weapon when thrown idea, because they really are HORRIBLE for throwing purposes. You already have them costing 15gp, which is exactly what I would have put it at, making it double the cost of a Kukri (basically) for a bit more functionality.
Finally, I would not make it an Exotic Weapon. Like the Rapier, I feel this should be a Martial Weapon. Unless you're a fighter, feats are hard enough to come by as it is! I would probably state that any class (and maybe race) that has proficiency in the Rapier ALSO has proficiency with the Main Gauche (as it's basically the same thing, only shorter.) This will make it a bit more accessible to players who want a good fencer/swashbucker type, but don't want to "waste" a feat to understand how to poke someone with a dagger, LOL! I think this makes sense for characters who are more finesse than brute force, such as rogues and elves.
Of course, this is all just my OPINION, based on my perception of the weapon, it's design and method of use. And I might be a little biased toward it, as I prefer finesse fighters over hulking brutes. ;)
Dot.
I added the main-gauche to my own games, because I got sick of every single dual-wielder running around with a kukri... plus, drawing a rapier and kukri is just wrong :P
Mechanics-wise, I gave it the exact same stats as a kukri, except for damage type (P, instead of S). Martial light weapon, same price, weight, etc. I like it far better as a martial weapon, since it allows more people to access it without spending a feat on it.
If I was going to add anything else to it, I'd consider having it give a +1 shield bonus to AC when the user is fighting defensively or using total defense, and is wielding two weapons with a main-gauche in his off-hand. That small, situational bonus would allow it to remain a martial weapon. Giving it that, however, makes it mechanically superior to the kukri (since they're basically identical already), but I'd rather see more dual-wielders using a traditional dueling weapon in their off-hand as opposed to an over-glorified axe-machete*.
If you really want to keep it as an exotic weapon, then giving it the abilities you've described are alright.
*(Note: I personally don't like the kukri as a weapon, and I dislike its prevalence in PF [which is solely based on it's 18-20 crit range], so my bias shows sometimes.)
1. It should be allowed to be used as a simple dagger by someone without proficiency, similar to the bastard sword or swordbreaker dagger. So that way, a fighter could pick one up at 1st level, get the realy important feats then, and the the exotic prof. when he levels up.
2. I actually do think it's too much—not because of balance, but because of design. You're getting more intricate with the rules for this weapon others in the game, I feel. It's a weapon designed for parrying blows. The +X AC emphasizes this best, stick with just that. The AoO, while it has some players, doesn't match the mechanics of the game that well: if someone casts a spell in front of you and provokes an AoO, why are they easier to hit with the main gauche than with an axe?
Interesting, I never saw this when arminas posted this three years ago. Not sure the reason for the threadsurrection, but an interesting post.
For something less... powerful, or to make it a martial weapon rather than exotic....
The main-gauche is really largely used defensively. I'd say that, in a martial weapon version... you only get the shield bonus to AC if you forgo off hand attacks for a full attack, which still stacks with Two-Weapon Defense. Because the whole point is you're using the main-gauche to block attacks, not make them. If you're making the attacks, you're not blocking.
I wouldn't have it grant an extra AOO, but give it a +1 bonus when making attacks of opportunity with it.
A character with the duelist prestige class also gains a +2 bonus to parry attempts with the main gauche and an additional +1 bonus (for a total of +2) when making an attack of opportunity granted by the duelist's riposte ability. Duelists using a main gauche to parry and riposte treat the main gauche as a weapon with the disarm special quality when using these class abilities.
It is also specifically designed for parrying in a specific style of fighting, so I would be inclined to limit the bonus to AC to opponents using Light or 1h weapons, and not natural or 2h.
This is once again getting too in-depth with the minutia of the weapon's real-life characteristics that aren't expressed for other weapons.
It's easier to block/disarm a sword attack when using an axe because you can catch the blade in the hook of the blade, but no axe grants a +1 on disarm attempts vs. swords.
Just give it +X shield bonus and you're done. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.