Natural weapon build...


Advice

Dark Archive

Ok, I was tossing this idea around in my head of this savage half orc buid that fights with natural weapons...

after reading the Core rulebook and APG I am a bit more confused than before.

My initial thought was at first level take 2 levels in barbarian(unfortunately no wild rager archetype), then at third a splash in sorc (draconic bloodline for the claws)maybe draconic disciple later on...

I was thinking of maxing out str to start at 20, and taking a cha of 12?

but for the natural attacks

at level 2(1 barb level, 1 sorc)

i can have the following attacks

1 normal attack(unarmed strike?)
2 claws( draconic bloodline) = 2x 1d4 dmg
1 bite attack ( orc trait) 1d4 dmg
1 gore attack ( fiend totem lesser) 1d8

so I am seeing..
1d3+5,1d4+5,1d4+5,and a final 1d8+5(if raging)

so 5 attacks at minimum damage if all hit 30-50damage without crits ?

no the part i get confused on is going to be the to hit bonus for attacks.

i read that natural attacks are made at full BAB, unless its a secondary attack?

the other question i have is in regards to feat selection down the road i could select power attack , and weapon focus(natural weapons) are there any other feats this build would benefit from ?

also please keep in mind this must be PFS legal.

Grand Lodge

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wellsmv wrote:
(maybe wild rager archetype)
'Pathfinder® Society™ / Additional Resources' wrote:
The wild rager archetype is not permitted in Pathfinder Society Organized Play

Dark Archive

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Auke Teeninga wrote:
wellsmv wrote:
(maybe wild rager archetype)
'Pathfinder® Society™ / Additional Resources' wrote:
The wild rager archetype is not permitted in Pathfinder Society Organized Play

doh how did i overlook that.. oh well its only 1d3 damage.

Dark Archive

Why not go with a natural weapon ranger with a level in barbarian if you want to rage?

The Exchange

wellsmv wrote:

at level 2(1 barb level, 1 sorc)

i can have the following attacks

1 normal attack(unarmed strike?)
2 claws( draconic bloodline) = 2x 1d4 dmg
1 bite attack ( orc trait) 1d4 dmg
1 gore attack ( fiend totem lesser) 1d8

In order to gain the unarmed strike attack, in addition to the natural attacks, you would need to have the improved unarmed strike feat or class ability and take the two weapon fighting penalties on all your attacks for the round. You would also treat all of your natural attacks as secondary attacks to the Unarmed Strike, just like you would if you used natural weapons mixed with any melee weapon.

You are also limited to one attack per limb so you could not use the bite and gore attack in the same round.

wellsmv wrote:

the other question i have is in regards to feat selection down the road i could select power attack , and weapon focus(natural weapons) are there any other feats this build would benefit from ?

also please keep in mind this must be PFS legal.

Weapon specific feats need to be purchased for each type of natural attack, so you would need separate feats to cover claws, bite, gore, etc.

Dark Archive

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Vinyc Kettlebek wrote:
wellsmv wrote:

at level 2(1 barb level, 1 sorc)

i can have the following attacks

1 normal attack(unarmed strike?)
2 claws( draconic bloodline) = 2x 1d4 dmg
1 bite attack ( orc trait) 1d4 dmg
1 gore attack ( fiend totem lesser) 1d8

In order to gain the unarmed strike attack, in addition to the natural attacks, you would need to have the improved unarmed strike feat or class ability and take the two weapon fighting penalties on all your attacks for the round. You would also treat all of your natural attacks as secondary attacks to the Unarmed Strike, just like you would if you used natural weapons mixed with any melee weapon.

You are also limited to one attack per limb so you could not use the bite and gore attack in the same round.

wellsmv wrote:

the other question i have is in regards to feat selection down the road i could select power attack , and weapon focus(natural weapons) are there any other feats this build would benefit from ?

also please keep in mind this must be PFS legal.

Weapon specific feats need to be purchased for each type of natural attack, so you would need separate feats to cover claws, bite, gore, etc.

No, No, No.. I have to stop you here because all of your information is wrong.

First, there are no TWF penalties for mixing natural and iterative attacks. That was officially removed when the bestiary was introduced. Now when you mix them your natural attacks are considered secondary attacks (-5 to hit and only Half str bonus to damage).

Also you do NOT need the improved unarmed strike feat to take your regular iterative attacks, that feat/class feature only removes the AoO that it provokes.

Finally you CAN do the Bite and Gore together, they are 2 separate attacks neither of them actually use a limb (only arms and legs are considered limbs).

Now to the OP for feats Pa and WF are definite but also look at the style feats from UC and the intimidate feats. Your big strong and scary, use it.

Liberty's Edge

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Actually, in order to get the unarmed strike, unless it is an additional attack granted by a class feature, he would be taking TWF penalties for any additional attacks, since the unarmed attack would be his only attack.

Now, for the claw/claw/bite, he could do that, and those would all be primary attacks, IF he only uses his natural attacks. The gore attack would be a secondary attack, unless he were to only use the gore attack on its own, with no other attacks.

So:
+ normal to-hit claw, 1d4+Str
+ normal to-hit claw, 1d4+Str
+ normal to-hit bite, 1d4+Str
-5 normal to-hit gore, 1d8+1/2 Str

Dark Archive

is it possible to get 4 claw attacks= 2 arms & 2 legs + bite and gore ?

i see multiattack is going to be needed for the bonus...

perhaps unarmed ranger /barbarian is a better mix then later throw in the sorc and dragon disciple

The Exchange

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
First, there are no TWF penalties for mixing natural and iterative attacks. That was officially removed when the bestiary was introduced. Now when you mix them your natural attacks are considered secondary attacks (-5 to hit and only Half str bonus to damage).

Normally when attacking with natural attacks, you get one attack per natural weapon. The Bestiary says that you can swap one natural attack with one weapon attack which is held in that limb. The Weapon becomes the primary attack and all natural attacks are treated as secondary. For example Claw, Claw, Bite being changed to Sword, Claw, Bite only affects Primary and Secondary classification of the attacks.

The OP was trying to add an attack to the progression. Turning Claw, Claw, Bite into Claw, Claw, Bite, Kick(Unarmed Strike). Adding the Kick as a 4th attack causes all the natural weapons to become secondary and triggers the Two Weapon Fighting Rules.

As I recall, in PFS the only way to take Multiattack as a PC is to take it as the Level 10 Combat Style Feat for the Natural Weapon Ranger(APG). Bestiary Feats are not legal for use unless they are granted from a different legal source.

I can’t think of anything that grants extra claw attacks.

Natural Weapon builds are good at low level and ok at medium level, but they lag behind at higher levels without the right goodies. Without access to the proper feats your damage dice can’t be improved enough to catch up to weapons.

In PFS Natural Weapon Rangers are the only ones who can take Improved Natural Attack at level 6+ as bonus Combat Style Feats. In order to qualify for feats that require a natural attack, the natural attacks must be permanent, not just temporary augmentations. Natural Weapon Rangers can take Aspect of the Beast(Claw) feat as their first Combat Style feat in order to qualify.

Shadow Lodge

Personally for a natural attack build i'd either go Summoner/Synthesist or Orc barb /w toothy and getting the beast totem line, don't worry about going sorc with the draconic bloodline, it's a number of rounds per day dependent on char. having 20 str and 12 char means your dex and con are going to hurt a lot, plus the claws from the beast totem end up doing 1d8/x3 each.

Although i still think that the synthesist summoner can do natural attacks better, at first level you can get 3 attacks(1d6+2 each) with pounce really easily where as a barb needs to get to 11th level to get pounce and is stuck at 3 natural attacks

since you make all your natural attacks at full bab having 3/4 bab isn't really that painful, plus, spells are always nice


For a natural attack focused character your best bet really, is to go feral mutagen alchemist, beastmorph, with 2 levels in barb for the gore attack.

This allows pounce by level 12 (and vital strike is a viable option for charging before that since one attack with a natural weapon counts as 2 handing it).

Following that method you gain 4 natural attack easily, a bite 2 claws, and a gore.

Now as for gaining 4 claw attacks (two on the legs) i'd say that is gm fiat. Synthesists can gain claws on there legs though so it's defiantly a option. Mixing in monk can also allow you too get the unarmed attacks in a stronger fashion and gives you free access to the dragon style feat with master of many styles, which with feral combat training you could add to one of your natural weapon types. You don't NEED monk too make that work, but it helps. Consider also taking the vivsectionist alchemist type as well for the sneak attacks.

Alchemist also opens up the option of buying a decent level potion of greater magic fang, strongjaw etc, and mixing it with alchemical allocation to allow you get it on permanently. Improved natural attack and multiweapon aren't really a big deal. Don't bother mixing iterative attacks in till you hit the higher levels (i'd say about 10+) it's just not necessary before that, and with the -5 and half strength can actually end up LOWERING your damage overall. Hope this helped.

EDIT:- Also, here is a thread that might be interesting for you, though I'm warning you your gm will HATE you.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/theDragonStyleVivisectionistBeastmorphFeralMutagenAlchemistAnExer ciseInRidiculousness

(try to remove any auto-spaces that have been put in before following it)

Also a further advantage for alchemists is they can gain the shapechange line of extracts.


skinwalker wearboar gets you gore/ 2 hooves feral mutagin for bite and 2 claws lvl two looking at 6 attacks 4 primary 2 secondary there is an archtype to alchemist that replaces bombs for sneak attacks witch for this crazy amount of attacks can be worth it.

also if you want the claws and bite away from feral mutagen their is a race trait for orcs called tusked you can get it with the trait addopted then go 2 lvls of ranger for natural attack style it gets you 2 claw attacks


wellsmv wrote:
Auke Teeninga wrote:
wellsmv wrote:
(maybe wild rager archetype)
'Pathfinder® Society™ / Additional Resources' wrote:
The wild rager archetype is not permitted in Pathfinder Society Organized Play
doh how did i overlook that.. oh well its only 1d3 damage.

If you are going with Barbarian, though, all those Natural Attacks benefit from your increased Strength from Rage.

I was thinking that a good way to increase your base damage is with levels in Warpriest. Take Weapon Focus for all your Natural Weapons, and they will do Sacred Weapon Damage instead of regular Natural Weapon Damage: 1d8 for a level 1 Warpriest, 1d8 for a level 5. If you dip 1 level in Ranger, you can use a Wand of Strong Jaw, and all your natural attacks will inflict damage as if you were 2 sizes bigger: 2d6 for a level 1 Warprist, 3d6 for a level 5. If you take 2 levels, you might get Precise Shot. Why Precise Shot? Well, why not? Use your Bow at range, use your natural Weapons in melee. You don't have to put down your Bow when you are in melee: switching hands, taking 1 hand off your bow, those are Free Actions. A Wand of Gravity Bow, makes your arrows do a base 2d6 damage at the cost of 2 Prestige Points: that 2 level dip is a small price to pay for a very big payoff.

I was thinking a good race for this would be a Tengu with Claws: 3 attacks/round for starters. Take a level in White Haired Witch, and you get a Hair Attack. Your Hair Attack gets a Free Grapple. Wear Armor Spikes, and now you are up to 5. Acquire a Helm of the Mammoth Lord, and you get a Gore Attack, too. Take Hamatula Strike, and your Gore and Bite get a Free Grapple, too, with the Armor Spike Damage. Take Snake Style and Feral Combat Training, and so will your claws.

So far we are up to 10 attacks/round with a base damage of 1d8. 5 of them will do 3d6 if you buff yourself with a Wand of Strong Jaw, 5 will do 2d6 if your buff yourself with a Wand of Lead Blades.

You'd dip a level in Monk or Brawler to get Improved Unarmed Strike to take Snake Style to apply it to your Claws.

Can you mix unarmed strikes into your Full Attack without demoting your Primary Natural Attacks to secondary? Well, technically, in the description of Monk and Brawler Unarmed Strikes, they count as Natural Weapons for the purposes of effects that improve natural weapons, but the idea seems very controversial. I recommend asking your GM at the table, make your point, but if he still refuses, shrug your shoulders and settle for 10 attacks/round instead of 12. Taking a level in Monk or Brawler will still serve the purpose of letting your apply Snake Style to your Claws and get 2 bonus attacks via Hamatula Strike.


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Tentacle cloak.
For gore, you can also use the Helm of the Mammoth Lord.
If you want claws without a level dip, or blowing two feats, there's one type of gloves that will GIVE you natural weapons.
Otherwise, Deliquescent Gloves to amp them.
Fleshwarped Scorpion Tail (Sting attack, three of which each day are poisoned).


Vinyc Kettlebek wrote:
I can’t think of anything that grants extra claw attacks.

Monstrous Physique and turn into a 4 Armed Sahaugin?

NeverNever wrote:
feral mutagen alchemist

The Feral Mutagen Alchemal Discovery gives you 2 Claws and a Bite for 10 minutes even at level 1. A Feral Mutagen will still give you a +4 Strength (that stacks with a Belt of Strength) and a +2 Natural AC Bonus.

If you take an Alchemal Tentacle, you don't get a Natural Attack Slot to use it: you have to use your regular, iterative attacks, but if you have a Natural Attack build, anyway, your've probably been hurting for a use for these attacks, anyway. This is a perhaps not-bad way to use your regular attack slots without interfering with your many, many natural attacks. An Alchemal Tentacle is still a Tentacle; a Tentacle is still a Natural Weapon.

Plus, I was just talking about using Grappling and Armor Spikes to effectively get extra attacks: Tentacles have Grab, and that gives you a +4 on all your Grapple Checks. A Crab Familiar, available through another Alchemal Discovery, would give you another +2.

NeverNever wrote:
Synthesists... vivsectionist

Awesome concepts. Not allowed in PFS.

NeverNever wrote:
well for the sneak attacks.

Sneak Attacks! That has seemed to me like an interesting way to take a Natural Attack Build. Instead of going with Warpriest, go with Ninja or something. Take Quick and Greater dirty tricks to lock in your Sneak Attack Damage by making your Opponents Blind, and Deaf, too if they have Blind Fighting or Blindsight. Pack a Wand of Negate Aroma, maybe? Once your opponent is Blinded (and Deafened, or whatever) then all 10-12 attacks/round all get Sneak Attack Damage. You might go Bludgeoner, Shatter Defenses, Cornugeon Smash, and Sap Master. Both have advantages and disadvantages.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
If you take an Alchemal Tentacle, you don't get a Natural Attack Slot to use it: you have to use your regular, iterative attacks, but if you have a Natural Attack build, anyway, your've probably been hurting for a use for these attacks, anyway. This is a perhaps not-bad way to use your regular attack slots without interfering with your many, many natural attacks. An Alchemal Tentacle is still a Tentacle; a Tentacle is still a Natural Weapon.

okay, i normally wouldn't necro a thread but this is just wrong. there are no "natural attack slots" (except sort of for eidolons). having a natural attack means you can use it as part of a full attack and natural attacks can never use iteratives. if you use a manufactured weapon, it uses your iterative attacks and all your natural attacks are treated as secondary. if you only use natural attacks, tentacle attacks like the ones provided by the tentacle discovery and evolution are (normally) secondary.


cuatroespada wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
If you take an Alchemal Tentacle, you don't get a Natural Attack Slot to use it: you have to use your regular, iterative attacks, but if you have a Natural Attack build, anyway, your've probably been hurting for a use for these attacks, anyway. This is a perhaps not-bad way to use your regular attack slots without interfering with your many, many natural attacks. An Alchemal Tentacle is still a Tentacle; a Tentacle is still a Natural Weapon.
okay, i normally wouldn't necro a thread but this is just wrong. there are no "natural attack slots" (except sort of for eidolons). having a natural attack means you can use it as part of a full attack and natural attacks can never use iteratives. if you use a manufactured weapon, it uses your iterative attacks and all your natural attacks are treated as secondary. if you only use natural attacks, tentacle attacks like the ones provided by the tentacle discovery and evolution are (normally) secondary.

My understanding of Natural Attacks has grown since this post.

Yes, there are Natural Attack Slots. They might not be called that, but in the sense of how I mean the term, yes there are.

Alchemal Tentacles are Natural Weapons, but they do not grant a Natural Attack Slot. You use the same game mechanic to attack with them as you would with a longsword. There is no talk in the description of their being either primary not secondary Natural Attacks.

Usually, Natural Weapons grant Natural Attacks. A Tengu with Claws and a Bite wearing armor with armor spikes and has 2 weapon fighting and multiattack, gets 5 Attacks/round: 2 Claws, a Bite, a primary hand attack, and an off-hand weapon attack. Because of the Feats, all of those attacks are at -2 on the attack roll. If this character dipped a level in White Haired Witch, she would gain a Hair Attack in addition to the rest. If she took to levels in Barbarian and took Lesser Fiend Totem, she would get a Gore Attack, too, wracking it up to

Bite
Hair
Gore
2 Claws
2 Armor Spikes

What if the character had a Tentacle Cloak? Well Tentacle Cloaks grant 2 Tentacle Attacks that add to the rest, so

Bite
Hair
Gore
2 Tentacles
2 Claws
2 Armor Spikes

What if the character took the Tentacle Alchemal Discovery? That is a Natural Weapon, but not a Natural Attack. To use the Tentacle, she wold have to replace one of the Armor Spike Attacks.

Bite
Hair
Gore
2 Tentacles
2 Claws
Armor Spikes/Tentacle.

I was debating with someone recently about whether a Natural Weapon were a Weapon. It seems clear to me that it is. You can make attacks with it. It is listed as a Weapon in a Fighter Weapon Training Group. Wildshaped Druids are Proficient with them. They can be enchanted as a weapon such as through an Amulet of Mighty Fists or a Magic Fang Spell.

Consider the consequences of asserting Natural Weapons and Natural Attacks are the same thing. Lets say my Tengu takes a level in Monk and takes 2 Weapon Fighting. Now her Full Attack is

Bite
Hair
Gore
2 Tentacles
2 Claws
and 2 Unarmed Strikes

Review Monk and Brawler Unarmed Strikes and not that they "count as Natural and Manufactured Weapons for the purposes of effects that improve Natural Weapons." That would mean that when you throw 2 Monk Unarmed Strikes in to your Natural Attack routine, your Primary Natural attacks are no longer demoted to Secondary. You'd just get 2 more attacks.

The reason why this doesn't work is that Monks do not get an Unarmed Natural Attack Slot. They use the same Actions to attack with them as they would with weapons, so their unarmed strikes do indeed interfere with their natural attacks, demoting them from primary to secondary. I used to be of the opposite opinion on this matter, too.

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