Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Well, since levels won't exist, and feats haven't been mentioned, talking about levels and feats means talking about a game other than the one announced. The name is misleading; this is not "Pathfinder the MMO" this is "A MMO set in the Pathfinder setting".
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- no nerfing of multiclass( my mnk5/sorc5 should be equal to a lvl10)I'm totally on board with this if you just change the wording slightly...
How about "My Monk/Sorc that I've been training for 6 months should be equal to a pure Monk or pure Sorc that's been training for 6 months"?
That's a bit unrealistic. They are equivalent to a point. But the pure class is going to have more class options open to it, and in some cases, the multiclass won't have the ability to counter some of those options. There must be trade offs for multiclassing to gain the abilities of TWO classes vs staying PURE. It has to be there, otherwise multiclassing becomes a case of munchkinism. If you are not a master of one trade, you can't put your abilities in that trade up against someone who is. Your 'edge' is then the other class that he doesn't have. And sadly, sometimes that's not enough of an edge.
In no specific order, a rough outline of what I'd like to see. Some issues don't seem like they'll be a problem for Pathfinder so far, luckily :)
1.) What I would love to see is a fantasy world that's engaging and fun to interact with, explore and exist in without relying on the modern crutch of click X or kill X tasks. I found interactions with online worlds prior to the dawning of 'click x/kill x' tasks to offer a much wider array of experiences and were inherently more dynamic as everyone's path wasn't set in stone.
I've seen enough fantasy worlds that feel as if they only exist as an afterthought and primarily are only there to facilitate the clicking of x objects to advance some menial task as a means of progression.
Quite simply, give us a vast array of tools with which to interact with the world around us. Truly develop a world that can stand on it's own as content even in the absence of all the tedious 'killx/click x' menial labor tasks.
Great big overarching 'quests' are another thing all together, and I would certainly hope to find some loftier goals that require a serious time commitment and some use of brain power to complete.
2.) Immense open world complexes to explore and venture into with your group, in the form of keeps, ruins, dungeons or abandoned villages packed with built in mechanics and rare/random spawns rather than linear instances.
I have no desire to be guided by the collar through another linear hallway that's so heavily scripted it literally plays out the same every time.
The developers story is never as important as the players personal story. Having a world with a clear set of lore and factions is great, but don't force your story down my throat. Instead give the players plenty of tools and a dangerous, exciting world in which to use them.
3.) Danger. I for one haven't appreciated any of my conquests or victories in the modern linear safety net zero risk MMO simulators. If you're creating a fantasy world populated by villainous creatures, please let it be dangerous.
The absence of risk & danger makes for a very narrow scope of experiences.
I want a long term hobby here, not a video game with cheats enabled. I'm looking to populate and inhabit an online world for an extended period of time when I invest in an MMO. Not zip to max level to get back on the same raid grind treadmill every other MMO clone has.
4.) Step away from spreadsheet gear based advancement. Modern MMOs, with their quick rides to max level and easy to complete end game raid grinds leave us all dripping in the exact same epics. Create a varied list of treasures and items and spread them throughout the world. I want to inspect someone and ask 'Wow, where did *that* come from?' as opposed to knowing from 100 feet away they're wearing rank B tier 2 raid set that they purchased with x tokens awarded from bosses, like anyone else playing that class. Bring back the exciting, interesting and fun loot of old school MMOs. Examples: Bracers of Fenin Ro, Pegasus Cloak, Tolans Bracer.
5.) Single group endgame content with large scale raids reserved as a rare and special event rather than a tedious nightly grind.
There's an intimacy and camaraderie possible with smaller groups that I've not seen replicated in large scale faceless forces. Ideally I'd like to see the hamster wheel current end game raiding has become pushed aside and see special events like that reserved for once or twice a week occasions.
There's nothing epic and adventurous, in my opinion, about swarming a boss with 20+ faceless people. I would like to see single group content be the primary form of advancement throughout the game.
6.) Step away from the disposable character situation that appears when max level can be achieved in weeks and the best gear can be obtained in the same space of time. Also force characters to face the consequences of negative behavior by not allowing fast server transfers and name changes. I enjoyed when people could actually earn a reputation, be it good or bad. That's been long gone now.
A few other notes would include pointing out that the more developers try and exert control over exactly how players interact with their content, the less options you leave us. Taking away creative problem solving is not a good choice. Give us the tools to approach encounters from any number of possibilities, rather than forcing us to play through some simon-says scenario in order to complete the script and win the encounter.
Many happy accidents (Kiting, FD pulling) changed the way the game was played (EQ as an example here) and added layers and possibilities that hadn't been counted on. Over the years developers have tried to reign in any loose ends and limit the ways we can interact with encounters (leashing, fixed BAF coding) and when compared to MMOs that existed before WoW nerfed the MMO landscape, they feel limited and predictable.
And finally, please make your OWN game. Sure, borrow elements that you really feel would compliment your design documents, but unless you're really confident you're going to do it better, don't simply clone.
The MMO landscape is packed full of games all chasing the exact same slice of pie. Try introducing players to elements they may not have had the opportunity to experience if their gaming career began with WoW. They've learned the basics now, they get the idea, so take off the training wheels and let go of the handlebars. Don't simply try and cater to the exact same audience as everyone else with the exact same game dressed a bit diffferently. Please.
(Edit: This is a re-post of mine from another games forums from before we had too much info regarding Pathfinder, looking back at it now makes me appreciate that a lot of my concerns have already been taken off the table - So, is it ready yet?)
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That's a bit unrealistic. They are equivalent to a point. But the pure class is going to have more class options open to it, and in some cases, the multiclass won't have the ability to counter some of those options. There must be trade offs for multiclassing to gain the abilities of TWO classes vs staying PURE. It has to be there, otherwise multiclassing becomes a case of munchkinism. If you are not a master of one trade, you can't put your abilities in that trade up against someone who is. Your 'edge' is then the other class that he doesn't have. And sadly, sometimes that's not enough of an edge.- no nerfing of multiclass( my mnk5/sorc5 should be equal to a lvl10)I'm totally on board with this if you just change the wording slightly...
How about "My Monk/Sorc that I've been training for 6 months should be equal to a pure Monk or pure Sorc that's been training for 6 months"?
what i mostly measn is to allow those classes and abilities to stack cause if they dont then basically i become a lvl 5 against a lvl 10 which is very underpowered.
truthfully i should as a multiclass be ROUGHLY as powerfull as a pure class. my mnk skills should not be as good as pure mnk and my sorc skills shouldnt be as good as pure sorc but because of my versatility i should in total be about equal.
metaphorically speaking this is like the difference between being a power fighter and being a dex fighter. the dex fighter is more likely to hit and less likely to be hit but will never hit as hard as the power fighter.
Goblin Squad Member
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what i mostly measn is to allow those classes and abilities to stack cause if they dont then basically i become a lvl 5 against a lvl 10 which is very underpowered.truthfully i should as a multiclass be ROUGHLY as powerfull as a pure class. my mnk skills should not be as good as pure mnk and my sorc skills shouldnt be as good as pure sorc but because of my versatility i should in total be about equal.
metaphorically speaking this is like the difference between being a power fighter and being a dex fighter. the dex fighter is more likely to hit and less likely to be hit but will never hit as hard as the power fighter.
So far, still pondering how to do it. With eve as the basis of a skill system done well to the point where a fairly young character can compete on equal but less versatile in combat compared to a vet, this goal is imposible and a reverse of the system (a mixed 1m on one role and 1m on another, is weaker than a 2m on one role, but a 2m on one role is barely weaker than a 41m character who has 2m in the same role.
In my opinion that is greater for the long run, because a far larger portion of the game can exist in the time after you've hit max in one archtype, than the time before, IMO a direct stacking has a high probability of making PVP flat out pointless for people who join after year 2.
That being said I think I may have a system that does balance it out.
I'm just going to jot out a fairly low set of non-archtype skills
Non-Archtype skills
HP mastery
Light armor defense
Medium Armor Defense
Heavy armor defense
Weapon skills
Greatsword
Mace
Daggers
(insert rest of weapons here)
Divine Spellcasting (unlock ability to learn divine spells, 9 ranks)
Magic Damage
School (add one entery for each school of magic) DCs
Ranger Archtype
Track
Bow Mastery -- Increase range of longbow
2 weapon mastery -- lower accuracy penelty of 2 weapon fighting.
(all bonuses to attack rate, damage etc... for these skills will be under the general weapon skills, not attached to the archtype).
Animal Empathy: Can tame animals
Animal Care: 1-25% reduction to upkeep cost for tamed animals
Camouflage: Able to use stealth in empty fields
Spells (prereq divine casting level (spell level):
etc...
Basically making all of the actual damage, DCs, HP etc... general skills while the archtype gets skills around utility and flexibility that focus on the core ideals of the class. This could potentially allow full flexibility, Permit but not mandate multiclassing. No reason to worry about class damages stacking, because the archtypes are more focused on the utility abilities.
This is just a rough thrown together version, and I have no idea how to really flesh it out to figure out the basis of doing spellcasters this way, but it's a line of thinking that could potentially get the best of both worlds.
Personally I still prefer the overall eve model, using equipment as ship type and more or less limiting abilities to currently equiped gear. IMO direct stacking of damaging abilities would ruin the game for anyone trying to come in after the fact at higher levels, but in theory a more unique system, could be plausible.
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well onishi you are starting to get closer to what ive had a hard time getting across.
however i hate equipment, my ability to play the game should not be dependent on equipment.
i will grant though that eve pulls that balance off only because of equipment. but thats a problem in eve, i could lvl whatever skills but there was no point in lvling large ships unless i spent way too much time grinding(grinding can be collecting resources be they exp or money), I dont want to have to grind to get the equipment needed to play. I want to explore taking the occasional job to do something and get some money to get what i want but it should not be "to get what i need". yes equipment can make things easier by giving bonuses or removing penalties but easier and nessesary are two different things entirely.
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Goblin Squad Member
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well onishi you are starting to get closer to what ive had a hard time getting across.
however i hate equipment, my ability to play the game should not be dependent on equipment.
i will grant though that eve pulls that balance off only because of equipment. but thats a problem in eve, i could lvl whatever skills but there was no point in lvling large ships unless i spent way too much time grinding(grinding can be collecting resources be they exp or money), I dont want to have to grind to get the equipment needed to play. I want to explore taking the occasional job to do something and get some money to get what i want but it should not be "to get what i need". yes equipment can make things easier by giving bonuses or removing penalties but easier and nessesary are two different things entirely.
That's where I'm thinking PFO could be more plausible. The issue in eve, was well at least as far as I know, there weren't extremely variable tiers of each ship type. You couldn't have a basic inexpensive version of a super ship. PFO you can have a basic inexpensive full plate armor for little to no work. There can be better +'s bonuses enchantments etc... that you can get when you feel like it, but even a basic player can afford 2 short swords, or a long bow etc... So you can get benefit from your skills as soon as you feel they are ready for action. and I definently agree that the tiers of gear should have less total impact
IMO the bottom crap NPC gear, and the ultimate top of the line super expensive gear, should be 20x the difference in price, and at best double damage/damage reduction, compared to the off the shelf version, with both being subject to equipment damage over time. Basically meaning if you have a whole boatload of money, you can deal twice as much damage... but it's going to be a continous expense to attempt to use it, so you are most likely going to only be using it in situations that you absolutely need it.
That's a bit unrealistic. They are equivalent to a point. But the pure class is going to have more class options open to it, and in some cases, the multiclass won't have the ability to counter some of those options. There must be trade offs for multiclassing to gain the abilities of TWO classes vs staying PURE. It has to be there, otherwise multiclassing becomes a case of munchkinism. If you are not a master of one trade, you can't put your abilities in that trade up against someone who is. Your 'edge' is then the other class that he doesn't have. And sadly, sometimes that's not enough of an edge.- no nerfing of multiclass( my mnk5/sorc5 should be equal to a lvl10)I'm totally on board with this if you just change the wording slightly...
How about "My Monk/Sorc that I've been training for 6 months should be equal to a pure Monk or pure Sorc that's been training for 6 months"?
what i mostly measn is to allow those classes and abilities to stack cause if they dont then basically i become a lvl 5 against a lvl 10 which is very underpowered.
truthfully i should as a multiclass be ROUGHLY as powerfull as a pure class. my mnk skills should not be as good as pure mnk and my sorc skills shouldnt be as good as pure sorc but because of my versatility i should in total be about equal.
metaphorically speaking this is like the difference between being a power fighter and being a dex fighter. the dex fighter is more likely to hit and less likely to be hit but will never hit as hard as the power fighter.
A smart fighter will take high dex and select the dextrous feat to use that in a fight, and use a weapon that is designed to be used as such like a rapier granting a further bonus. In the long run, it's the smarter choice, because str buffs are easy to come by even at level one, and the ability to avoid being hit is paramount at any level. But that doesn't really answer your statement.
You would have comparable hp based on class, and saves, and other level dependent minutiae that add the two levels together. You won't be getting lvl 10 class skills however, as you aren't lvl 10 in either class. Best you will get is lvl 5. Your spells will NOT be cast at spell level 10, but spell level 5, as you don't HAVE 10 lvls of spell casting, unless the spell description specifically states casting level as character level and not class level, which most refer to class level.
The bonus to multiclassing is the benefits of adding the 1st level abilities gained and the option to progress in both classes. You can't just add them all up together. Some things in each are going to remain separate and at lvl 5. If you have been playing games and casting spells at lvl 10 while multiclassed, you have been in error concerning the rules or running homebrew games.
Also, I believe that sorcerer is a character creation choice, not a multiclass option for later, due to the bloodlines being something you have to be born with, much like character race. If you didn't realize at birth you had that potential, sorry, you don't get it later on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let’s have some non-static encounters.
How about being able to fight on top of a moving horse drawn carriage.
Instead of just beating enemies to death, this could open a new range of options, trip, push or throw your opponents over the side and they are left behind in the dust.
Or the player could jump off the carriage as a means of escape, ok, you might end up being stranded in the middle of the wilderness with minimum equipment, but at least your alive and have a story to tell at the next tavern or inn.
This could also apply to a boat on the river attacked by pirates or the classic giant octopus capsizes said boat and you have to swim to shore to escape.
Some great ideas flying around, cant wait to actual get into the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would love for the devs to build a large open arena outside one of the main cities to hold Olympic style events in PFO. Give use the tools and we will create the content.
Build a large open arena for:
1. Sack races
2. Horseshoes
3. Targets for archery Contests
4. Hammer throwing
5. Shovelboard
6. Pall-Mall - hitting a ball through iron rings
7. Jousting
8. Fox Hunting
9. Pen for cock fights
This would be a monthly event with prizes and gifts and of course anyone could attend you would just need to contact Blackuhuru to register.
End of the year winners competition to crown the best in each category.
I would also like to see games for gambling as I plan on building a brothel/speakeasy. Well maybe not a brothel but there will be booze and gambling.
As much as I love combat, I love non combat events just as much!
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Goblin Squad Member
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- no nerfing of multiclass( my mnk5/sorc5 should be equal to a lvl10)
"Equal"...this word grates on my nerves. It's such a loaded word that means so much to so many people.
The only way to make a mnk5/sorc5 truly and actually "equal" to either a mnk10 or sorc10 is to indeed make them either a mnk10 or a sorc10, or to change the game mechanics so that a monk and the sorc can do all the same things.
Anything short of completely changing all paths/classes/abilities etc. to make all characters do the exact same thing is ultimately going to end up in some "equality" or "balance" cheerleader complaining that he saw another character do something that his character can't do and how unfair it is. I'm not saying you will personally go to this extreme, but be careful in how you call for "equality" or "balance". Every MMO forum has its share of people who want the game to be made up of only a single class that merely uses different animations or different sequences of abilities to achieve the exact, identical, same end. Absolute rubbish!
A monk has a higher BaB than a sorc and progresses through unarmed damage levels. A sorc can cast spells and doesn't gain unarmored bonuses or increases in unarmed die damage levels. To suggest that multi-classing, if this is indeed what is being suggested, should mean not carefully choosing gains and losses as it does in PnP, but that you should simply be both in the full meaning of it, is completely absurd. I'm not sure if that's what you indeed meant by that, but please say it's not. and please find a different word other than "equal" or "balanced" because they're both trash words in an MMO.
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What I think those who are in support of fully viable multiclassing are saying is that, in certain situations, multiclassed characters should be just as viable as single-classed characters.
Let's look at the above multiclass as an excellent example. The Monk/Sorcerer, using only Pathfinder core rules, is about as horrible a character as you could make. None of the ability scores line up, and there is no way either class makes up for the others misgivings (monk doesn't provide enough melee options/viability, and sorcerer spells don't make up for the loss of BAB, hit points, etc.).
As GoblinWorks is going with earning badges as you increase specific skills, I would like to see a variety of multiclass badges that allow for viable (key word!) multiclassing options across the board.
For Example: A character with a combination of monk abilities and sorcerer abilities could gain an ability similar to a Magus, allowing the character to cast low-level spells once per round as part of a melee attack. In MMO terms, this would likely constitute making certain touch spells cast instantly and be applied to your next melee attack, as opposed to having individual attack animations.
This kind of synergy allows the multiclass characters to make up the difference between themselves and the single class characters in a way that is unique to their play styles without sacrificing viability in any chosen "role" (i.e., there may not be tanks, but if I want to play like a tank, I should have multiple ways of accomplishing that goal outside of going straight fighter/paladin).
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I think those who are in support of fully viable multiclassing are saying is that, in certain situations, multiclassed characters should be just as viable as single-classed characters.
While the idea you suggested is interesting and I would kind of like to see it, I am still very skeptical of the total viability of it. The big thing is the mixture of low and high level characters into the same battles. If they could find a way to mix in characters of multi-class to be comperable power I would be in favor of it, but I think the greater fear is 4-5 years down the road, when we are looking at double castoned multiclass characters, and trying to ensure they are not instantly 1 shotting people who are under half way to cap.
Not saying it wouldn't be awesome if they could do it, but if I had to chose between 2 extremes (note I don't expect either extreme be what is the end result of the game, I am calling them extremes for a reason)
Extreme 1: You can only have the abilities of 1 archtype at a time
Extreme 2: All abilities not only stack but add together unique abilities making a double capstoned character not only able to crush all sub 20's, but also obliterate single 20s
Between the 2 extremes, the first one is still fully playable, admitted limited in what all your character can do, it can still make a fun game 8 years into the game, much like while you can only pilot one class of ship at a time in eve, but people still work on mastering all of the other ships in eve, the game has been around for nearly a decade and people are still nowhere near bored with it.
Extreme 2. you are pretty much looking at an impassable entry barrier 5 years in. you know it's going to be 2.5 years before you are worth anything, and even then you are going to be clobbered by the now 7.5 years in vets, the only way new characters will have any significance is if the current vets all get bored and leave.
I would like a nice hybrid, but honestly I would say 80% towards category 1, and 20% bleed over from other classes, would result in a more long lasting game in which all participants have an impact and matter, compared to the other way around.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the key is to change the way we think about "levels".
Instead of thinking that a 5/5 Monk/Sorc should be comparable to a 10 Monk or a 10 Sorc, we should instead think in terms of time devoted to training up Monk and Sorc skills. It may well be that in the time it takes someone to get to 10 Monk or 10 Sorc, they could have instead gotten to 7/8 Monk/Sorc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But should you make two characters comparable just based on time invested? Why should people who don't want to bother carefully planning their choices and who end up making frivolous choices be on par with those who focus and specialize their characters on the specific tasks they want to be good at?
Essentially, while there are issues with the PnP level system, I see using time invested as an equalizer to be a poor solution.
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But should you make two characters comparable just based on time invested? Why should people who don't want to bother carefully planning their choices and who end up making frivolous choices be on par with those who focus and specialize their characters on the specific tasks they want to be good at?
Essentially, while there are issues with the PnP level system, I see using time invested as an equalizer to be a poor solution.
It really all comes down to how you want to reward players. Do you want to reward players for careful planning and executions of a character, or do you want to reward them for a unique character design? By allowing for relative viability of a variety of builds, you reward a player for doing both options.
Yes, someone who takes the Jack of all Trades approach to the extreme (I'm a 1st level EVERYTHING!) is going to get screwed, but multiclassing can, and should, be done well, and there should exist options for those that wish to do it well, while allowing for flexibility in character choices.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Blaeringr, I didn't mean to suggest "using time invested as an equalizer".
Obviously, two characters who have the same investment in time will be significantly different characters because of the specific choices made. Isn't this true in PnP, too? Or are all Level 10 Rogues "equal" to such a degree that you thought I would think they'd have to be "equal" in PFO, too? Personally, I would expect even in PnP that the choice of feats and such would lead to significantly different characters. Sorry if it wasn't clear to you that I wasn't making a ridiculous suggestion.
I removed some posts. Flag it and move on.
Goblinworks Founder
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1. Make crafting in depth like a game of it's own, in a game. People will be adventuring I want to be the one who creates the items that they use. I want to be the one who repairs their broken sword, mend their armor.
2. Breakable items - helps with the crafting community. They can repair an item but it takes away durability little by little till they need a new one. Items can be destroyed by acid monsters, or lost due to death. Magic items need a special type of person to repair so that one is sought out.
Make crafting an actual market and not just another thing that can be done while you're bored and set to make 20 short swords while you are not at keyboard.
3. Multi-classing is the spice of life they have the abilities of two classes they are not always as powerful as a dedicated single class. But it's nice to have someone who maybe grabs heals from one area while adding damage/debuffs/buffs from another class to help out and support others with the same abilities. "Don't worry I'll add in some heals to help you out and abilities that will enhance our groups fighting abilities."
4. Body guards to gather that rare material that only I have the ability to extract or know what it is. Giving out quests to adventurers to gather these items.
5. No global chat - keep it to yells makes it feel more realistic (well to the extent that a video game can provide). Makes the usual spots for adventurers to find a quest/groups equal to how they would in a game (inn/bar/bulletin board) . Also lessens the usual talks of global chat that bog it down and make most just leave that channel altogether.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1) Skills - Leveling up skills, gaining new abilities or spells should entail a graphical increase in power from 1 to 2 and so on. It's purely cosmetic but I'm tired of seeing the same looking fireball or swing of a sword the same every time.
2) UI - Should be fully customizable. All frames should be allowed to be moved freely to our desire.
3) Crafting - Player driven. I would prefer a system similar to SWG. Very robust, highly customizable, randomization of materials. (timed release of certain materiel's, some only to be seen once a month) The more complex the system the better. Crafter's will have sense of pride/community when people seek them out for rare items, repairs etc.
4) Durability decay with items - This helps the crafting community & the need to replace an item.
5) Mentoring system- Allow higher level classes to skill/level down to the lower/lowest player in party. Nothing like playing with a friend or family member who is 5 levels lower & can't play together due to level
disparity. With the level cap @ 20, Ryan Dancey mentions he would like to see the first characters emerge around two-and-half years after launch. I prefer not to change my game-play decisions based on anyone else time-frame. This allows flexibility to continue my journey but also help lower level players, without making the content trivial.
6) Combat - A mix of traditional MMO (EQ/WOW) and Action or Positional Styles (SWTOR/DAOC) with some collision detection thrown in. (Warhammer) Collision detection makes the combat more visceral. This can provide a complex and more engaging style of combat to enhance the user experience.
Maybe also combine spell/combat sequences to " chain " with your party to create a more devastating or new type of spell that otherwise would not be attainable solo.
7) Animations - Must be fluid, responsive & provide feedback to the user as it relates to the actions being performed on screen. I should be able to tell what is going on screen by the spell or swing of a weapon, not looking down at combat log to see what hit me. This applies to buffs/debuffs/roots/snares/mez/sleep/dots/blocks/parrying/dodges etc
8) Instancing - Keep it to a minimum, if any at all. This breaks immersion & takes me out of the world. I understand it will be needed for possible unique spawns or dungeons but keep it to a minimum.
9) Classes/Careers - Open Paths to leveling for all- Allow for entertainers/gatherers/crafters/explorers/pvp'ers to advance how they choose within the world. This will allow for many different types of gamers to enjoy/play how they wish. This can foster a healthy/living
breathing community.
10) PVP - Prefer open world PvP. I like the idea that your are entertaining unrestricted PvP in some locations. No battlegrounds like WOW or Rift. If you are doing this, make it similar to DAOC, a persistent always on location with no player cap.
11) Player created modules/content - Allow for DM's to create/design thier own unique stories into the PO universe. Similar to NWN.
12) Individual Player Shops/Inns or town specific ones. Also Settlement/Kingdom shops. Make them all link so we don't have to check 100's of individual shops.
13) Graphics - I would like to see something that fits the universe of Pathfinder Online & the art that is represents. There are several engines to choose from. I do not know which would be best, but whatever works to ultimately see your vision through without sacrificing quality.
14) Guild/Player housing - Let these be placed inside Settlements or Kingdoms. Allow the inside to be decorated etc.
15) Ship construction & Sea Travel with battles on ships at sea.
16) Underwater areas/Swimming
17) Weather /Seasonality - Full seasons & Day/Night cycles - Environmental impact, earthquakes etc effect the land permanently or for a period of time.
18) Shareable quest log or maps - Share quests currently on, also save completed quests to refer back to, especially Heroic type quests. Allow us to make markers or detailed notes on maps, and share this with party or individuals.
These are a few ideas I have, I'm sure some have been repeated but hopefully I added some new ones. I wish nothing but success for you. =)
6) Combat - A mix of traditional MMO (EQ/WOW) and Action or Positional Styles (SWTOR/DAOC)...
Most of what you wrote made sense but did you just say 'Lets make a traditional MMO' here? Don't we have enough of thoose already?
For your information the combat, as well as almost anything else, doesn't differ between WoW and SWToR.
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Goblin Squad Member
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6) Combat - A mix of traditional MMO (EQ/WOW) and Action or Positional Styles (SWTOR/DAOC)...Most of what you wrote made sense but did you just say 'Lets make a traditional MMO' here? Don't we have enough of thoose already.
For your information the combat, as well as almost anything else, doesn't differ between WoW and SWToR.
I certaintly don't want a traditional MMO by any sense of the means. The combat does differ as there is not an auto attack in SWTOR compared to WOW.
Ok...didn't notice that...but that is not really a big difference.
I'm glad you don't want them to make another WoW/Traditional MMO-clone-thing.....
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6) Combat - A mix of traditional MMO (EQ/WOW) and Action or Positional Styles (SWTOR/DAOC)...I certaintly don't want a traditional MMO by any sense of the means. The combat does differ as there is not an auto attack in SWTOR compared to WOW.
Okay, I've gotta differ with you on this point. Having played SWTOR extensively (and consequently unsubbed) I have to say that SWTOR does have auto-attack, just not the way you think of it in most games. Look at every weapon-based class, and you notice that you HAVE to use your "basic attack" (hammer shot, flurry of bolts, etc.), because of the way the attrition mechanics work. It's an auto-attack... that you have to press.
Also, no, SWTOR and WoW combat are not different. In fact, one of my gripes with the game is how much it's WoW with a Star Wars skin. Better storytelling, yes, but I would actually argue that WoW does PvE better.
/tangent
A better example for action/positional combat would be Tera or GW2, though admittedly, the later hasn't been released yet, but there's enough beta footage out there to know what I'm talking about.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've probably said this before in this thread even, but I want to make sure there's a voice for the other side of this debate too.
"action/positional combat" is fine as an option, but please don't make it required. From my perspective, my character has the skills that make him good at combat. I shouldn't have to personally have "mad skillz" to roleplay a skilled fighter.
Obviously, there's going to be some skill required on my part, but I really don't want it to be like I'm playing Street Fighter every time I fight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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6) Combat - A mix of traditional MMO (EQ/WOW) and Action or Positional Styles (SWTOR/DAOC)...I certaintly don't want a traditional MMO by any sense of the means. The combat does differ as there is not an auto attack in SWTOR compared to WOW.
Okay, I've gotta differ with you on this point. Having played SWTOR extensively (and consequently unsubbed) I have to say that SWTOR does have auto-attack, just not the way you think of it in most games. Look at every weapon-based class, and you notice that you HAVE to use your "basic attack" (hammer shot, flurry of bolts, etc.), because of the way the attrition mechanics work. It's an auto-attack... that you have to press.
Also, no, SWTOR and WoW combat are not different. In fact, one of my gripes with the game is how much it's WoW with a Star Wars skin. Better storytelling, yes, but I would actually argue that WoW does PvE better.
/tangent
A better example for action/positional combat would be Tera or GW2, though admittedly, the later hasn't been released yet, but there's enough beta footage out there to know what I'm talking about.
I played an Assassin in SWTOR to (70Valor). All of my attacks must be pressed manually or as you say " basic attack ". You cannot sit back swing your saber and do damage. There is a difference.
I'm not talking about the attack itself,the fact you must press a button to perform that attack. I agree WOW did this better. I also un-subbed from SWTOR.
Tera/GW2 - Adds some new elements to the MMO action combat which could be very interesting.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Weather I need to use a macro to use the basic attack at maximum effectiveness or just toggle a flag isn't really a critical portion of combat. Weather I need to perform some action which requires skill (as in DCUO, where the primary attacks are determined by click/directional combos) or simply tactics (press the hotkey and the attack happens) is a major difference.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Weather I need to use a macro to use the basic attack at maximum effectiveness or just toggle a flag isn't really a critical portion of combat. Weather I need to perform some action which requires skill (as in DCUO, where the primary attacks are determined by click/directional combos) or simply tactics (press the hotkey and the attack happens) is a major difference.
I agree with you here. I do not want macro's to be the main focus of combat or crafting. I think SWTOR got this right. (the combat part)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've probably said this before in this thread even, but I want to make sure there's a voice for the other side of this debate too.
"action/positional combat" is fine as an option, but please don't make it required. From my perspective, my character has the skills that make him good at combat. I shouldn't have to personally have "mad skillz" to roleplay a skilled fighter.
Obviously, there's going to be some skill required on my part, but I really don't want it to be like I'm playing Street Fighter every time I fight.
I also share your point of view. I think a even balance would be preferred. I don't think it has to be all or nothing on both sides.
I believe performing actions at the right time is better for tactical/action combat. I want combat to be engaged with the right amount of player input & my character abilities that allow him to perform his feats.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Frencith, there's certainly something cool about having that level of customization, but if there isn't a well-developed set of pre-defined actions that many players could use without ever having to define their own, I would not support this. Some people just don't want to have to build everything from the ground up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Brilliant Decius...if these player built stanzas were able to be shared, it would add teacher/student feel...without the players actually teaching anything (because the "student" would already need access to each of the components of the action).
Would this solve your concern Nihimon? If everything was customizable, but especially at the start you could seek out those more experienced to "teach you" standard stanzas?
The cool thing about this system is it allows you to customize your actions to build whatever "class" you want to be...and learning new skills is actually learning new skill components that can be used as building blocks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My primary objective is in allowing for as many diverse play styles as possible. It's just like in the other thread on combat-style, I would love to see the game let the player decide whether they wanted to rely on their twitch reflexes or or whether they wanted to rely on their character's skills.
I would love to see this kind of customization available as an option, but I would not want players to be required to either build their own or have some other player provide them a pre-made set.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Player defined actions. Some thing similar to this.
Thanks for sharing. Never seen this design element before. This adds a whole new dimension to combat & learning skills. If they could enable a "quick swap" setting so you can swap out different player defined actions based on your encounter/surroundings, I think would be refreshing. The reason for this would be for a different set for PVE/PVP spells/abilities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The game this is from then places the built actions on toolbars, which you are free to select between (I think there are 12 total, each with 20 "spots"). So, it definitely would allow quick switching situationally.
Nihimon, I understand. Likewise, in the game this came from, characters are able to train entire prebuilt stanzas (they are actually learning all the components at once...and it shows up on their bars prebuilt).
I will start a new thread so we do not hijack this thread with discussion/speculation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1-Have the ability to make any of our classic characters we are used to. All our oracles, inquisitors, monks of the 4 winds, ect. All the core and base classes with all the archetypes.4-Ability to play with any alignment, I’d like to see as player options clerics of Asmodeus and Zon-Kuthon, play anti-paladins and so on.
5-Have the ability to gain some templates after hard and higher level quests, things live vampire, werewolf, skeleton champion and lich all come to mind
Well that’s my wish list, what are yours?
Love these class ideas. I am currently running an Inquisitor I love it. With there talks of bounty hunters how can they not put this class in. Also the earnable templates would be awesome. But I think these should be exxtremely hard to get. And not overpowered.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So I didn't read the 500 posts before mine. So if this mentioned earlier I apologize.
NAMES -- Don't make every name have to be original. In life, there are lots of people named John. But allow people a last or second name. Also let titles or prefixes come into play. John could be, Sir John Doe II.
And please no specail <ascii> letters. It takes for ever some time to figure out to spell Crazyßob. Just let me name him Crazy Bob to begin with.
Class -- And let us have some core classes from the APG, ie. inquisitors and anti-palidins.