MMO wish list


Pathfinder Online

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Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

KitNyx wrote:

The lack of any communication but local means has been mentioned by we "advocates for realism". As you said, it would make possible the use of spells to send messages (maybe even a role for "telegraph wizards"). We who were discussing the idea were torn apart with varying degrees of logic. Admittedly, it would make traditional MMO communication more difficult. Having a system like this would keep people who play together...together. It would make people find homes and stick around their homes versus ranging the world, because that is where their friends are. This...in my opinion is a good thing, because it forces people to act responsibly. This anonymity online which empowers people to behave in manners most of us seem to frown upon, would be to a small extent removed.

Besides, most of us use voice chat with our friends anyways (especially if the game builds a voice chat in to compensate for the lack of anything but local chats in-game). This would be a +1 from me, but I think we would be out voted...if the devs even cared amount majority opinions.

So:

- you get voice chat & you fluently speak one of the common languages used by the playerbase
- so you get a big advantage in game

-you don't use voice chat and/or your write/read but don't speak fluently the more used languages
- you are marginalized

Can't say that I like a mechanic that benefit 30-40% of the playerbase and penalize the others.

To be honest I can say I hate the idea.

Goblin Squad Member

Fair enough and I agree with your points. While I wish chat would be limited to local channels (at least until telepathy is added to everyone in the Pathfinder campaign setting), I can definitely see how it would hamper traditional modes of communication in an MMO. Likewise, I agree it is not viable without further consideration.

[quote=Diego Rossi}So:
- you get voice chat & you fluently speak one of the common languages used by the playerbase

I am not sure what you mean here...as an advocate for realism I hope no one can talk to each other except in their respective language...elvish, dwarvish, orcish...I intend to learn mine prior to release of the game...

/humor =P


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Roaming monster tribes - instead of monsters being spawned out of thin air, certain monsters may roam around to search for shelters. Once they found a shelter(and/or food source), the population number would slowly increase.

Few monster tribes remain neutral or even friendly terms with the nearby towns, however most eventually become a threat to travelers and nearby towns. The civilization npc community may realize them as a threat once their trade routes / occupants are being harassed, and will find ways to eradicate those threat (usually by asking players to do it, or on rare events they may try it on their own).

If a character belongs to the same monster race/monsters that tribe is friendly with (by spell effect or disguise), or simply charismatic enough, the character may even be able to forge a relationship with the tribe. The player will need to know their languages to do so or other ways to communicate however.

The spell, reincarnation - Players may be raised as a different race randomly, however if using this method to raise the fallen, the characters' fame/notoriety/owned land would be lost (unless they roll the same race). If raised as a monster race, the player join the monsters' tribes instead, which would be more difficult compared to the civilization counterpart. (if not wanting the penalty, players can always choose to be raised by other spells)

Just my 2 cents.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

KitNyx wrote:


- you get voice chat & you fluently speak one of the common languages used by the playerbase

I am not sure what you mean here...as an advocate for realism I hope no one can talk to each other except in their respective language...elvish, dwarvish, orcish...I intend to learn mine prior to release of the game...

/humor =P

Exactly:

if you speak Taldane, you are ok,
If you only only speak Hallit or Skald you are a notherns savage and no one want you in group.

;-)


Baldr Sky wrote:

Roaming monster tribes - instead of monsters being spawned out of thin air, certain monsters may roam around to search for shelters. Once they found a shelter(and/or food source), the population number would slowly increase.

Few monster tribes remain neutral or even friendly terms with the nearby towns, however most eventually become a threat to travelers and nearby towns. The civilization npc community may realize them as a threat once their trade routes / occupants are being harassed, and will find ways to eradicate those threat (usually by asking players to do it, or on rare events they may try it on their own).

If a character belongs to the same monster race/monsters that tribe is friendly with (by spell effect or disguise), or simply charismatic enough, the character may even be able to forge a relationship with the tribe. The player will need to know their languages to do so or other ways to communicate however.

That is *awesome*

Goblin Squad Member

Native Windows, Mac, and Linux clients?

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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My biggest wish for this game is 1) that it is successful, which I have faith in and 2) that it expands past the river kingdoms. I want to explore the nation of Geb, witness the atrocities of Cheliax, purge the taint of the World Wound, delve into the jungles of Sargova, traverse through the Multiverse, and much more. On top of that i want pathfinder emotionally invest me into Golarion with decision making that have consequences (though that may be very doubtful). I'm guessing if they were gonna go past the river kingdoms that they are going to have expansions. They should have detailed histories explained in game for countries that are saved in codexes once a player has encountered it. I'll add more to my wishlist as soon as I come up with more ideas.


No visible healthbar/stamine bar/mana bar. At least a energy/stamina bar can be replaced by heavier breathing and grunts made by your character. Your vision getting blurred, the sound around you fades/ does a lowpass effect. You know.

Enviromental dangers. Like, when you are walking around in -20 degrees celcius, your character gets a debuff in speed or something like that, because of the cold. You can counter this by wearing more clothes, or stop and drink some special tea kind of thing. Or just make a campfire and get warm for some time.

This might be far fetched, but I would love to see different islands/continents where players are sailing ships in between.

A very well working alignment and morality system depending on your current ingame locations. Like if your moral compass tells us that you have killed many people, and eaten babies (example!!) in some parts of the world you are not welcome, or merchants can trade with you without losing some of their standing in their area. Then, if you travel to another area, where eating babies and killing people is the norm, you are loved and everyone respects you etc.

Goblin Squad Member

Aruz wrote:

No visible healthbar/stamine bar/mana bar. At least a energy/stamina bar can be replaced by heavier breathing and grunts made by your character. Your vision getting blurred, the sound around you fades/ does a lowpass effect. You know.

I actually like this, though a similar system to just the blurring needs to be in place to allow healers to note a half vague idea as to when you are hurt, but yeah I wouldn't mind the 1200 HP bar being reduced to an invisible number with 4 discernible states for you and your allies and foes to recognize

Quote:


Enviromental dangers. Like, when you are walking around in -20 degrees celcius, your character gets a debuff in speed or something like that, because of the cold. You can counter this by wearing more clothes, or stop and drink some special tea kind of thing. Or just make a campfire and get warm for some time.

No idea how likely, but I wouldn't be opposed to it, would create new use for possible spells such as protection from elements etc... as well

Quote:

This might be far fetched, but I would love to see different islands/continents where players are sailing ships in between.

A very nice idea, but at least for the start I believe the game is going to be limited to the river kingdoms, and the devs have shown very little interest in ship travel

Quote:

A very well working alignment and morality system depending on your current ingame locations. Like if your moral compass tells us that you have killed many people, and eaten babies (example!!) in some parts of the world you are not welcome, or merchants can trade with you without losing some of their standing in their area. Then, if you travel to another area, where eating babies and killing people is the norm, you are loved and everyone respects you etc.

Also a possibility, depending on how well it can be determined, there were hints of an alignment system, just brings up the debate as to how and who should know your alignment. Now if you ate that town's babies, and someone saw you, absolutely you should be kill on sight for the guards and the merchants etc.. should slam their doors and hide from you. Of course many towns will be player run, and thus they will have the options based on your in game reputation.


Onishi I was thinking about the problem with healers as well. I guess a little "IM DYING HELP ME" shout would be in order. Could be used to trick enemy healers as well, shouting for help. If friendly fire is in the game, I suppose healers can heal enemies by mistake as well ;)


Aruz wrote:

No visible healthbar/stamine bar/mana bar. At least a energy/stamina bar can be replaced by heavier breathing and grunts made by your character. Your vision getting blurred, the sound around you fades/ does a lowpass effect. You know.

No, please. 2 reasons.

1. Your health total will have to be comunicated with your PC in order to show the effects. Thus players will have at least an estimate of their health. It is a really simple UI hack from there to add in a health bar, giving people with this hack an advantage of having faster and more easily comunicated vital information. I would download this hack before even bothering to play.

2. Not everyone's computers behave the same way. Some people have sound turned off when they play. Some graphics cards don't render things properly. Audio cues like you are describing are very easy to miss, even with sound turned on (not to mention hearing disabled, I have a friend who hates being unable to play a game because of unnecessary audio cues.) Visual cues like you are describing may not display right on all graphics cards (and if they don't the game becomes more or less unplayable.) And if your computer never renders these things in the first place, or you don't have sound turned on, how do you know what you are missing and that something is wrong?

Goblin Squad Member

Caineach wrote:
Aruz wrote:

No visible healthbar/stamine bar/mana bar. At least a energy/stamina bar can be replaced by heavier breathing and grunts made by your character. Your vision getting blurred, the sound around you fades/ does a lowpass effect. You know.

No, please. 2 reasons.

1. Your health total will have to be comunicated with your PC in order to show the effects. Thus players will have at least an estimate of their health. It is a really simple UI hack from there to add in a health bar, giving people with this hack an advantage of having faster and more easily comunicated vital information. I would download this hack before even bothering to play.

2. Not everyone's computers behave the same way. Some people have sound turned off when they play. Some graphics cards don't render things properly. Audio cues like you are describing are very easy to miss, even with sound turned on (not to mention hearing disabled, I have a friend who hates being unable to play a game because of unnecessary audio cues.) Visual cues like you are describing may not display right on all graphics cards (and if they don't the game becomes more or less unplayable.) And if your computer never renders these things in the first place, or you don't have sound turned on, how do you know what you are missing and that something is wrong?

Well in defense, I do agree with the issues, but the general idea can be worked with, maybe instead of necessarily having said effects, the health-bar can be reduced down to 5 states. Healthy, Hurt, Wounded, Critical, dead. The server is calculating your health, and sending back the information, instead of it sending back 9002, it can send back 1 meaning healthy. This could still be represented by a bar, except instead of the precision of knowing exactly how much HP you have, you get a general idea, by having these in the form of icons or even a bar that isn't precise, it now works on the same specs as health bars do.

Is it necessarily a good idea, no, is it plausible enough with some work it has potential, sure.

Goblin Squad Member

I don't actually see any purpose to removing the numbers from your health/mana bar beyond making the game more frustrating, presumably for the sake of "verisimilitude"?


Scott Betts wrote:
I don't actually see any purpose to removing the numbers from your health/mana bar beyond making the game more frustrating, presumably for the sake of "verisimilitude"?

Haha, I'm sorry. These are just my idea of a nice game. You know, not everyone shares the same opinions. I've seen most of your post, and frankly, you seem like a guy who thinks your ideas of a game are always the best.

And why cant you just say truthlikeness or realistic instead of verisimilitude, I'm not a native english speaker. In fact, English is my fourth language, I had to google that one haha. There is no need to complicate things even more.

And to Caineach, your arguments are really good. I have never thought of it that way, but then again, I have my way of playing games and other people have their ways. And I am not, and I dont know anyone, who is deaf or hearing impaired so I didnt give that any thought either.

Goblin Squad Member

English is my first language and I had to look it up. Initially the big word added an illusion of authority I think. Now its use has become a bit of a derogatory label for "us". Saying something you suggest is for "verisimilitude" just says, "oh, you are one of them..." without actually having to lower oneself to tossing about insults.

I like the idea of a customizable UI including obvious (bar) and overt (vision blurring) visual and/or audio (heavy breathing) ques for the elements on the interface (course, I also advocated a touchscreen interface).

Sovereign Court

1) Different starting areas. You want monks and samurai? Ok, you start over here. European fantasy types start over there. Etc.

2) Crafting that is worthwhile and works. I don't have the answers, just do it.

3) Other aspects besides combat, like diplomacy and social interactions.

4) Organizations/factions that you can join. Then even partake in realm vs realm combat.

5) Mounted combat.

6) Make encumberance enforceable for swimming/climbing and just plain carrying stuff. It kinda irks me that everyone in every MMO can carry the same amount of stuff.

7) World-building. I want to make a difference in the game. I want to help carve out a place in the wilds or reclaim a holy site and help build a city there.

Yes, this is what I want. Nay-sayers can start another thread listing all the things they think are Bad Ideas (TM). Anyone can come up with many reasons why something can't/won't work. It takes someone with true talent to bring them into existence.


KitNyx wrote:

English is my first language and I had to look it up. Initially the big word added an illusion of authority I think. Now its use has become a bit of a derogatory label for "us". Saying something you suggest is for "verisimilitude" just says, "oh, you are one of them..." without actually having to lower oneself to tossing about insults.

I like the idea of a customizable UI including obvious (bar) and overt (vision blurring) visual and/or audio (heavy breathing) ques for the elements on the interface (course, I also advocated a touchscreen interface).

Touch interface? By the gods!

Goblin Squad Member

Aruz wrote:
KitNyx wrote:

English is my first language and I had to look it up. Initially the big word added an illusion of authority I think. Now its use has become a bit of a derogatory label for "us". Saying something you suggest is for "verisimilitude" just says, "oh, you are one of them..." without actually having to lower oneself to tossing about insults.

I like the idea of a customizable UI including obvious (bar) and overt (vision blurring) visual and/or audio (heavy breathing) ques for the elements on the interface (course, I also advocated a touchscreen interface).

Touch interface? By the gods!

I was thinking about future proofing...how long before some tablets (not just the iPad) are powerful enough to handle this type game? Besides, with the rise of touchscreens, who knows what the next few years hold for I/O devices...maybe a decent-sized touchscreen monitor that can be held in your lap, but still plugged into your gaming computer...oh, I like that idea...

Goblin Squad Member

KitNyx wrote:
Aruz wrote:
KitNyx wrote:

English is my first language and I had to look it up. Initially the big word added an illusion of authority I think. Now its use has become a bit of a derogatory label for "us". Saying something you suggest is for "verisimilitude" just says, "oh, you are one of them..." without actually having to lower oneself to tossing about insults.

I like the idea of a customizable UI including obvious (bar) and overt (vision blurring) visual and/or audio (heavy breathing) ques for the elements on the interface (course, I also advocated a touchscreen interface).

Touch interface? By the gods!
I was thinking about future proofing...how long before some tablets (not just the iPad) are powerful enough to handle this type game? Besides, with the rise of touchscreens, who knows what the next few years hold for I/O devices...maybe a decent-sized touchscreen monitor that can be held in your lap, but still plugged into your gaming computer...oh, I like that idea...

Not opposed to the idea of touch interfaces, but it does have to be noted, it is a long way off, not just for tablets to be developed with strong enough GPUs to handle modern 3-d games, but also to factor in the raw difficulty of porting the game to a new medium. Some engines are already converted to mac/linux, and some engines function well under WINE etc... but tablets are neither too suited for running emulators nor are they a similar enough language that a port will be easy, or probable within a year of when they actually reach the necessary power.

Goblin Squad Member

Right...sorry, did not want to sidetrack the thread. Ryan gave the same response you are (which I agree with).


Nebelwerfer41 wrote:

1) Different starting areas. You want monks and samurai? Ok, you start over here. European fantasy types start over there. Etc.

Your other points I like. THis one though, I have to point out there is a reason they are doing this game in a small section of the River Kingdoms. The area is a catch all for refugees from other places. So it is not unreasonable to see people with vastly different backgrounds there. In fact, if they didn't I would feel kind of cheated.

Goblin Squad Member

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1) I definitely tip my hat for the Wandering Tribes of Monsters setting up in ruins and abandoned structures, and even building onto those structures themselves to provide additional security or shelter.

Riding past an abandoned farm and you see a pair of sickly Orcs staring at you from a pile of huddled figures in the burnt out ruins. "Gah, no, bad conscience, don't make me .... gah .... okay, okay, I'll just keep walking."

Come back an in-game month later and the Orcs have turned the Barn into a crude shelter, complete with barricades and primitive pit-traps and are raiding the nearby village for food, slaves and supplies.

2) A certain amount of realism, but not too much, for example yes I do want to skin and prepare my deer that I stalked, shot and killed. I don't want it to take a horrendous amount of time though. A minute, at most, to 'skin' the Deer, get the 'Hide' item, then harvest the 'venison' and 'misc organs' (please no critters with no livers, please. I have flashbacks to hours in Westfall crying tears of blood as my Druid waded through an ocean of boars looking for that ever-elusive organ!) and then I go on my merry way, leaving some bones and scraps of meat behind.

I do this enough, scavengers might begin to replace predators for a short while. Instead of Wolves I might be facing Goblin-Dogs, a weaker enemy but greater in number and with that accursed dandruff ability!

3)Perhaps an Alter-Ego System, in which case a player can take steps to mask their 'identity', much like Bruce Wane/Batman? By day you're a humble pork-pie maker, by night, you're the infamous Pork-Sword Avenger, bane of the local Thieves Guild (And yes I am being entirely too silly here /queMontyPython.).

Or maybe you're a Cultist for Urgotha posing as a gentle Priest of Pharasma, working your way into the trust of the biggest player-controlled town in the region to set up a device to counter or corrupt the 'Shrine' in the town and negate their ability to revive their dead PCs/NPCs, opening the door for your Cult's Zombie Invasion?

The flipside to this is you only get one Alter-Ego at a time, and your Alter-Ego will only stand up to so much scrutiny. Rip off that face-mask, either in your 'original' identity or in your 'alter-ego' state and the jig is up. Ideally this 'ability' should only be available to people who have undergone some serious training via the skill-system and are prepared to buy all new equipment or wander around virtually unarmed and unarmored to keep the ruse going as best they can. Walking around in the exact same armor with glasses and a fake nose and mustache should not cut it.

4)Death by amorous ferrets to the Holy Trinity. How you will do this, I don't know, I can't even program my DVD player, but I pray for attacks of opportunity to 'check' an enemy trying to move around an actively hostile opponent and a collision system, plus any character abilities such as shooting the enemy in the foot to pin them down or slashing them across the face to get blood in their eyes and lower their accuracy/ability to see?

5) Friendly Encountersin the wide open world. Wandering traders (both PCs and NPCs), soldiers heading to the World-Wound, pilgrims, 'friendly' monsters such as Faerie Dragons, something that doesn't involve 'Roll for Init' the instant you detect them/they detect you.

That said, I would hope that our Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate/Sense Motive somehow gets ported into the system. Being able to outright avoid combat on the odd occasion by talking somebody down, bluffing them into thinking you're their Chieftain's favourite lap-warmer, making them soil their loin-cloths on command or even being able to get 'a gut instinct' that they are about to spring a trap or might be actively looking for a way out of the confrontation (some of the enemy, at least) could be a nice touch.

6) This is my Crossbow, there are many like it, but this one is mine. Crafting will hopefully come with a small amount of customization of the end piece, be it making a Crossbow with a cherry-wood stock and engraved blued-steel parts vs a Crossbow with leather-wrapped oak for a stock and plain, unpolished iron parts. Mechanically a small advantage/disadvantage for the materials used, but not a crippling amount. I make a Crossbow, I want it to be comparable to any other Crafter with an equal skill-level.I want that Crossbow to be better, I had better train harder and seek out better materials.

Iron might be slightly inferior to Steel, but Cold Iron should be better than both, and Mithril should be much better than anything bar Adamantite or a heavily enchanted weapon. Likewise other materials, be it the wood (or bone or even more metal) used for stocks, handles, hafts and all the variety of weapon pieces should vary depending upon the materials used, as should the leathers/hides/cloths used for grips, adornments and the like, so on and so forth.

While Crafting should have a broad variety of different outcomes, a Masterwork weapon should potentially be able to be of use to a Player for a long, long time. As a Masterwork weapon, probably only a few more levels, but there should be no reason that a Player should discard the weapon for a +1 weapon of the same type if they have an attachment to that particular weapon. Perhaps it was gifted to them by another player as thanks for help with a particularly arduous quest, or maybe they found it in the tomb of an ancient barbarian king, or maybe it was thrown at their heads by the enraged father of a farm-girl and they keep it as a memento of that day.

7) Please please please let us build our own houses/forts/sheds/bunkers/succubi summoning circles anywhere we want, within the bounds of coding and players going through some sort of hurdle or time-sink to ensure people cannot just buy up everything and then forcewall-block everyone else. If I find a cave a few hours outside of town with a nice ambience, I want to be able to buy it and then make it liveable, complete with a thick, sturdy, lockable door, panelled floor and bricked up tunnels in back.


Aruz wrote:

No visible healthbar/stamine bar/mana bar. At least a energy/stamina bar can be replaced by heavier breathing and grunts made by your character. Your vision getting blurred, the sound around you fades/ does a lowpass effect. You know.

I guess a little "IM DYING HELP ME" shout would be in order.

If this is what happens when I'm injured, how will I know when I'm drunk?


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So many posts here that I'm sure my wants and requests have already been thrown into the mix; so there'll only be one thing I will offer in this thread:

Bards - please please please, do not leave the bard class relegated to just being a glorified buffer. There is so much more to playing a bard than just singing your songs to give your team mates bonuses.

I'd love to see the Peform skill offer up chances for a Bard to pretty much have a chance of making money in any community - and not just singing or dancing either. I'd love to see as wide a range of musical and performance related actions possible within programming ability - dance, instruments, juggling, poetry, even stage-type acrobatics - this is a suedo medieval setting, those are pretty much the forms of entertainment that both the commoners and nobles would most likely enjoy.

Also a Reputation based score dependant on one's character's performances and audience response so a player can keep track of how well they are received and where they can expect to perform in-game from village inns all the way through to a King's Audience chamber! Even have this reputation affect how vendor prices are calculated in a "Fame" type way - "O no sir, this fine bottle of wine is on the house after sir's wonderful performance this evening." :)

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Onishi wrote:

Well in defense, I do agree with the issues, but the general idea can be worked with, maybe instead of necessarily having said effects, the health-bar can be reduced down to 5 states. Healthy, Hurt, Wounded, Critical, dead. The server is calculating your health, and sending back the information, instead of it sending back 9002, it can send back 1 meaning healthy. This could still be represented by a bar, except instead of the precision of knowing exactly how much HP you have, you get a general idea, by having these in the form of icons or even a bar that isn't precise, it now works on the same specs as health bars do.

Is it necessarily a good idea, no, is it plausible enough with some work it has potential, sure.

Why do you want to deny the player information about his own status? Would you also hide the amount of damage the player is taking from each attack, or hide it behind a long list of adjectives?

At my gaming table, dice rolls are rarely, if ever, hidden, damage is read out loud, and players communicate their characters health freely. What's the difference between seeing a visual indication of an ally's condition and having to wait for the ally's macro to detect the new condition and send a message reporting it? (Or, if scripting of that level isn't supported, the player noticing and hitting the 'say my health is now x' button.)

Healers are hard enough to play with the blame they get for people getting themselves killed. People already pay no attention to how much damage they take, since the healer is supposed to keep them up. Don't make it harder by denying everyone feedback regarding what is happening.

Goblin Squad Member

Daniel Powell 318 wrote:
Why do you want to deny the player information about his own status?

I used to play Arctic MUD, and it never said "You hit so-and-so for 17 points of damage." It just said "You bruise so-and-so" or "You massacre so-and-so".

I always liked that, and I really think it would be better if the Theorycrafters had enough of a margin of error in their calculations that they couldn't identify the Best Build, so that people would feel free to try different things without feeling like they were unnecessarily handicapping their character.

Also, the number of Hit Points you have is an abstraction. I don't know personally in real life if I have 100 hit points or 1000, but I would know I have a broken arm, or I'm feeling dizzy, or my abdomen has a huge slash in it and my entrails are starting to spill out. I'm always surprised that people are so attached to Hit Points in the computer age. Hit Points started out as a simple way to keep track of damage in an Pen & Paper world where it wasn't feasible to track each discrete injury. Now that we're using computer to track it for us, do we really still want to use Hit Points?


Nihimon wrote:
Daniel Powell 318 wrote:
Why do you want to deny the player information about his own status?

I used to play Arctic MUD, and it never said "You hit so-and-so for 17 points of damage." It just said "You bruise so-and-so" or "You massacre so-and-so".

I always liked that, and I really think it would be better if the Theorycrafters had enough of a margin of error in their calculations that they couldn't identify the Best Build, so that people would feel free to try different things without feeling like they were unnecessarily handicapping their character.

Also, the number of Hit Points you have is an abstraction. I don't know personally in real life if I have 100 hit points or 1000, but I would know I have a broken arm, or I'm feeling dizzy, or my abdomen has a huge slash in it and my entrails are starting to spill out. I'm always surprised that people are so attached to Hit Points in the computer age. Hit Points started out as a simple way to keep track of damage in an Pen & Paper world where it wasn't feasible to track each discrete injury. Now that we're using computer to track it for us, do we really still want to use Hit Points?

To your first point, about old games, I will say that in every one of those style games I could tell how much damage I was doing. If I bothered to collect data (and believe me, people would,) I could get a serious, detailed view and optimize just as much. All hiding it does is make it more difficult for optimizers. People will run the numbers and backtrack the math within a reasonable margin of error, because some people enjoy doing it. All giving the math to the players does is give level the playing field between those willing to put in the effort and those who are not.

As for your second point, hit points are used because people are used to them and it can relate information to the player quickly. Many games have more detailed systems. People aren't proposing it for PFO because the basis for PFO is the table top RPG, which uses hit points. If the game was based off of Shadowrun or Mech Warrior, people would be advocating more of a wounds system.

Goblin Squad Member

Caineach wrote:
... in every one of those style games I could tell how much damage I was doing.

That's true only to the extent that you had access to other basic data in its raw form, for example your total hit point pool.

But more importantly, reading your post made me realize I was breaking one of my cardinal rules. I need to recognize that there are people who find it fun to crunch the math on their chars with precision, and I shouldn't be recommending systems that take that away without a very, very good reason, and I don't think that saving some hypothetical player from feeling like he's unnecessarily handicapping his character if he doesn't use the Best Build is even close to being that reason.

Goblin Squad Member

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Several people have already made these points, but I'm going to put in my two bits anyway for emphasis.

1) When crafting gear/items, you should actually be able to feel like you are wielding an item you made yourself, or that your good friend made for you as a reward, not just "this purple sword that everyone uses cause it's the best crafting recipe at this level". Either ways to customize the item's appearance, or just inscribe a name or phrase on it. Or even, go more like pre-CU Star Wars Galaxies and allow you to put "upgrade points" into different stats on the gear, allowing you to fine-tune its specs.

2) Playable races outside the core seven. Specifically, lizardfold and kobolds. I know that it's a pain to make character models and animations for less-humanoid races, but it would add a lot to the game's world, knowing that the centaur tribe that just moved near your town might have a few players in it. Maybe not all of these races are available from the start, leading to...

3) Do what Pathfinder does. If you think it's too overpowering to let players make some races/archetypes at the beginning, let them unlock the ability to do so. Maybe you can't play as a centaur until you both earn a plains-exploration badge, and get into good reputation with a centaur tribe. Maybe you can't make a kobold character until you've earned the trust of a kobold tribe. The one problem here is that some people would make throwaway starting characters, unlock the new races, and then immediately roll one of the unlocked races as their main, ignoring their original character.

4) Most importantly... I'd like my actions in the game to MEAN SOMETHING. I can't tell you how many times, while grinding in a theme-park MMO, I've wondered how more of the creatures can still spawn, after I've at least killed a good town's worth of them, if not rampaged through their main stronghold twice in that day alone. When me and a few people I joined up with go raiding a hobgoblin stronghold, they shouldn't all just pop back up in five minutes. Maybe a few groups of reinforcements will spawn, but if we keep at it, we should be able to clear out the whole building. Permanently. Or at least, until some other monster calls it home. Or we declare it the start of a new town.


Deadestdai wrote:

So many posts here that I'm sure my wants and requests have already been thrown into the mix; so there'll only be one thing I will offer in this thread:

Bards - please please please, do not leave the bard class relegated to just being a glorified buffer. There is so much more to playing a bard than just singing your songs to give your team mates bonuses.

I'd love to see the Peform skill offer up chances for a Bard to pretty much have a chance of making money in any community - and not just singing or dancing either. I'd love to see as wide a range of musical and performance related actions possible within programming ability - dance, instruments, juggling, poetry, even stage-type acrobatics - this is a suedo medieval setting, those are pretty much the forms of entertainment that both the commoners and nobles would most likely enjoy.

Also a Reputation based score dependant on one's character's performances and audience response so a player can keep track of how well they are received and where they can expect to perform in-game from village inns all the way through to a King's Audience chamber! Even have this reputation affect how vendor prices are calculated in a "Fame" type way - "O no sir, this fine bottle of wine is on the house after sir's wonderful performance this evening." :)

I was thinking of how Entertainers and Inns etc. can be made more useful.

I dont know if this has been mentioned or discussed before though, but couldnt they make some kind of mental fatigue? Like, your character has been fighting/crafting/fishing/whatever for 5 days straight, and has now reached rock bottom in his mental fatigue. In order to regain your spirit you go watch a bard sing some stuff, go have a drink in the inn, go watch some exotic dancers or go pray in your church.

The mental fatigue could gimp your character slightly in some way, like -5% crafting speed or some s+*!. And you only get completely drained after a long time, so that it doesnt become a chore to go binge drinking lol.

Goblin Squad Member

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Arbalester wrote:
4) Most importantly... I'd like my actions in the game to MEAN SOMETHING. I can't tell you how many times, while grinding in a theme-park MMO, I've wondered how more of the creatures can still spawn, after I've at least killed a good town's worth of them, if not rampaged through their main stronghold twice in that day alone. When me and a few people I joined up with go raiding a hobgoblin stronghold, they shouldn't all just pop back up in five...

This, and then some.

Please, please, please make it so that, if I clear an area and post guards at the only entrances, nothing should appear in the cleared area unless it has snuck past my guards, or it has entered through a secret door. Make it so that mobs only spawn if their spawn point is controlled by their faction. Otherwise, they have to spawn at a controlled spawn point, and walk back to their original spawn point.

Also, please don't create a scenario where I have to stand in line behind three other players to kill a named mob. Once I kill a named mob, I really don't want to see it alive again unless it's been resurrected.

Goblin Squad Member

Deadestdai wrote:

I was thinking of how Entertainers and Inns etc. can be made more useful.

I dont know if this has been mentioned or discussed before though, but couldnt they make some kind of mental fatigue? Like, your character has been fighting/crafting/fishing/whatever for 5 days straight, and has now reached rock bottom in his mental fatigue. In order to regain your spirit you go watch a bard sing some stuff, go have a drink in the inn, go watch some exotic dancers or go pray in your church.

The mental fatigue could gimp your character slightly in some way, like -5% crafting speed or some s&%@. And you only get completely drained after a long time, so that it doesnt become a chore to go binge...

Ever played Star Wars Galaxies (pre-Combat Update)? That had a few systems that encouraged a lot of player interaction, including a fatigue system like what you're describing... it was called Battle Fatigue, and it could only be cured by watching/listening to a performing Entertainer, which was a player class. In return, Entertainers could only improve by getting Mental Healing Exp, which was only earned when they healed a watcher's Battle Fatigue. That kept the cantinas busy at all hours of the day.

Goblin Squad Member

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On another note, something on the wishlist I haven't seen mentioned yet (unless it's somewhere on pages 3-7...)

Make player/creature effectiveness based on current health/vitality.

I know the tabletop Pathfinder does this also, but I'm getting kinda sick of having my character take two axes to the thigh and five crossbow shots to the chest, and still be able to attack and move exactly as well as at full health, so fights just go: I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm suddenly dead.

There's no MMO, and even no RPG, I can think of that uses this model (Well, Fallout uses something like this). I'd like to see a game where you do less damage, have less effective abilities, and/or move slower as your current health drops. This would make healing more important, and make mistakes more costly, both for the players and the creatures.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Arbalester wrote:

On another note, something on the wishlist I haven't seen mentioned yet (unless it's somewhere on pages 3-7...)

Make player/creature effectiveness based on current health/vitality.

I know the tabletop Pathfinder does this also, but I'm getting kinda sick of having my character take two axes to the thigh and five crossbow shots to the chest, and still be able to attack and move exactly as well as at full health, so fights just go: I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm suddenly dead.

There's no MMO, and even no RPG, I can think of that uses this model (Well, Fallout uses something like this). I'd like to see a game where you do less damage, have less effective abilities, and/or move slower as your current health drops. This would make healing more important, and make mistakes more costly, both for the players and the creatures.

Betrayal at Krondor had a system where, as you lost health, your skills degraded. The concept breaks one of the weak rules of game design: It handicaps someone who is losing, because they are losing. Once a character got hit a few times, they became worthless until healed. It made for interesting turn-based tactical decisions about movement, but a wounded character couldn't disengage from a faster, unhurt one anyway.

Goblin Squad Member

Arbalester wrote:
But I'm getting kinda sick of having my character take two axes to the thigh and five crossbow shots to the chest, and still be able to attack and move exactly as well as at full health, so fights just go: I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm suddenly dead.

I'd actually like to see this solved a different way. You're absolutely right that attacking at full power after taking two axe shots to the thigh is kind of silly.

I remember reading an argument for why D&D originally used Hit Points, and why they had them get so much higher for higher level fighters. One part of the argument was that, when you lost Hit Points, it wasn't really always that you got hit. Part of the reason high level Fighters had such high hit points was to model their ability to parry and block, etc. So, in reality, even though you were down half your hit points, you might not yet have been blooded, or even knocked around all that much.

I'm not sure how PFO could change this significantly without really blowing away a lot of players' expectations. Personally, I'd kind of like to see a lot more parries and dodges and shield/armor blocks, with hits that land really ruining the day of the person they land on.

Goblin Squad Member

Oh brilliant, I would love to see this...HP between level 1 and 20 actually increase very little, but ways and chance to dodge/parry/block do increase dramatically...based on skill with weapons/armor or raw reflexes of course.

There is no reason a level 20 blacksmith should necessarily have higher HP, dodge, parry, or block than a level 1 blacksmith. Of course, and unfortunately, blacksmith/crafter is probably not a class/skill tree.


Arbalester wrote:
Deadestdai wrote:

I was thinking of how Entertainers and Inns etc. can be made more useful.

I dont know if this has been mentioned or discussed before though, but couldnt they make some kind of mental fatigue? Like, your character has been fighting/crafting/fishing/whatever for 5 days straight, and has now reached rock bottom in his mental fatigue. In order to regain your spirit you go watch a bard sing some stuff, go have a drink in the inn, go watch some exotic dancers or go pray in your church.

The mental fatigue could gimp your character slightly in some way, like -5% crafting speed or some s&%@. And you only get completely drained after a long time, so that it doesnt become a chore to go binge...

Ever played Star Wars Galaxies (pre-Combat Update)? That had a few systems that encouraged a lot of player interaction, including a fatigue system like what you're describing... it was called Battle Fatigue, and it could only be cured by watching/listening to a performing Entertainer, which was a player class. In return, Entertainers could only improve by getting Mental Healing Exp, which was only earned when they healed a watcher's Battle Fatigue. That kept the cantinas busy at all hours of the day.

O yes, played from Beta and on for a couple/few years. it was a pretty cool system and yes, made performance really useful. Using that as a model, I'd also like it to apply to npc's also and perhaps make it so a "well loved" character who has performed in a village/town/city/area for long enough and gotten better known to see benefits thereof such as far more positive interactions with NPC vendors, etc - ie. cheaper accomodation/food/taxes(?)/etc.

Goblin Squad Member

KitNyx wrote:
Oh brilliant, I would love to see this...HP between level 1 and 20 actually increase very little, but ways and chance to dodge/parry/block do increase dramatically...based on skill with weapons/armor or raw reflexes of course.

I second this. This would be hard to make properly to not lock out people with poor reflexes, but if there were some way to make this more strategy-based, I would love it.

Goblin Squad Member

I think any character should be able to enter a Maximum Defense stance and be able to effectively defend themselves, for at least a few rounds, against a single attacker even if that attacker is significantly more powerful. Of course, they shouldn't be able to do anything else while they're using Maximum Defense. Think of the Hobbits running around parrying and dodging while the orcs and the cave troll are trying to kill them.

I think the benefit of a Defender type of class, such as Paladin or Fighter, should be that they have really good Defenses even without resorting to Maximum Defense, so they can act offensively as well. Of course, if a Paladin goes into Maximum Defense, he should be able to hold out, relative to the prior example, for at least 10 rounds.

Goblin Squad Member

My suggestion would be to not penalize people for not wanting to group all the time and set up all content to be viable for a solo player. A good example of a game that does this now (to some extent) is SW:TOR. While the game eventually does force you to group up, for a majority of the game you can get by with an NPC companion. Allow that through the entire game and that'd be great. =)

Goblin Squad Member

darkling23 wrote:
My suggestion would be to not penalize people for not wanting to group all the time and set up all content to be viable for a solo player. A good example of a game that does this now (to some extent) is SW:TOR. While the game eventually does force you to group up, for a majority of the game you can get by with an NPC companion. Allow that through the entire game and that'd be great. =)

I doubt that is going to be viable for this game outside of the high sec low reward zone. Which while you can get by in, if as Ryan puts it "getting the lowest possible reward for the time" is what you consider penalizing, that is going to be an issue for you I believe.

The best rewards are going to be in the low sec areas, which even if you can survive the monsters/content just fine, you may be attacked by gangs of PCs that may outnumber and outlevel and outskill you.

Goblin Squad Member

So there's going to be no way to avoid griefers? Nonstop PVP, everywhere?

I'm going to make a new character and be ganked within 5 minutes and have my starting gear looted? Like in UO?

Goblin Squad Member

darkling23 wrote:
My suggestion would be to not penalize people for not wanting to group all the time and set up all content to be viable for a solo player. A good example of a game that does this now (to some extent) is SW:TOR. While the game eventually does force you to group up, for a majority of the game you can get by with an NPC companion. Allow that through the entire game and that'd be great. =)

At first, I didn't think this was really going to be applicable to PFO, because it's not like you're going to need to complete a ton of quest content in order to level up.

But then I realized that it might be very applicable. There are going to be things that we're going to have to do in-game in order to receive certain Merit Badges. I can see how some Merit Badges (I don't think all Merit Badges are going to be equivalent to class levels) would require acting in a group - maybe a Merit Badge for Healing Another in Combat, if such a thing exists. But I totally agree with Darkling23 in that our archetype Merit Badges should be soloable.

Goblin Squad Member

darkling23 wrote:

So there's going to be no way to avoid griefers? Nonstop PVP, everywhere?

I'm going to make a new character and be ganked within 5 minutes and have my starting gear looted? Like in UO?

No.

I strongly recommend you read the blogs.

You will be subject to attack if you venture into uncivilized territory, but it's not a free-for-all everywhere.

Goblin Squad Member

darkling23 wrote:

So there's going to be no way to avoid griefers? Nonstop PVP, everywhere?

I'm going to make a new character and be ganked within 5 minutes and have my starting gear looted? Like in UO?

I second Nihimon here, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but at least learn the basics of what has been announced before complaining. Heck even the post you were responding to there, I was stating that in the areas you are safe, is where you will recieve the lowest reward for your time. Going out into the high risk areas where the rewards are greatest, is where you are in the most danger. Also your gear cannot be looted, if you are killed by a player, you can only lose your non-equipped carried items, so basically your potions and whatever resources you gathered from the dangerous area you traveled to.

Goblin Squad Member

1 - Warforged character race.
2 - Undead character race.
3 - Elven slave girls.

In that order.

Goblin Squad Member

Oh, and action based combat. If you're going to make a game that underscores the differences between a slow pen and paper campaign verses how it should look on computer, I think this is a big one. No arrows following you around corners, attacks ignoring obstacles, etc. Give it a slight FPS feel. Not too much that casual players get overwhelmed, but enough to boost that sense of immersion.

Please.

Lantern Lodge

Some things I want to see,
- drow, werepanthers, tieflings eventually(maybe once you lvl a char high enough it unlocks new races that require lvl adjustments if you make any)
- leadership feat
- shugenja
- no nerfing of multiclass( my mnk5/sorc5 should be equal to a lvl10)
- good polymorph spells
- those few themepark elements have good story(about the only thing I liked about swtor)

Goblin Squad Member

I would like to see some greater reasoning or effect behind the soul-binding ability
The Soul-bind ability should link to a religious edifice, shrine, church, temple etc. This would also bring a characters alignment into play. If your alignment changes then you fall out of favour with that particular religion and may be ostracised and therefore not able to bind to any of that religions place of worship.
A penance would be required to rebind to a location belonging to said religion, be it monitory or some heroic deed. Or the character could try to win favour with another religion and Soul-bind to one of their buildings.
If a character chooses not to join a religion then they could choose from any of the locations but would have to make a regular donation or some such.

Goblin Squad Member

DarkLightHitomi wrote:
- no nerfing of multiclass( my mnk5/sorc5 should be equal to a lvl10)

I'm totally on board with this if you just change the wording slightly...

How about "My Monk/Sorc that I've been training for 6 months should be equal to a pure Monk or pure Sorc that's been training for 6 months"?

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