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I hate skill based systems. Sticking to class and levels would be the preferred way to go.
I don't want to have to click on an anvil a 1000 times to get Craft (Weaponsmithing) up to something usable. I just want to select it at level up. Make my masterwork sword and head out to kill goblins with it.
The best MMOs I have ever seen are persistent worlds made with Neverwinter Nights engine. Your best bet is to emulate that model.
Goblin Squad Member
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I hate skill based systems. Sticking to class and levels would be the preferred way to go.
I don't want to have to click on an anvil a 1000 times to get Craft (Weaponsmithing) up to something usable. I just want to select it at level up. Make my masterwork sword and head out to kill goblins with it.
The best MMOs I have ever seen are persistent worlds made with Neverwinter Nights engine. Your best bet is to emulate that model.
"Best bet"? For whom, exactly?
You will not have to click a button thousands of times to get a character improvement.
I'll wait to see how you do it then.
To date, I've never seen an actual fun skill based system in an MMO.
Best bet for success is to stick to what you know, and what you know is the class and level system very well.
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You will not have to click a button thousands of times to get a character improvement.I'll wait to see how you do it then.
To date, I've never seen an actual fun skill based system in an MMO.
Best bet for success is to stick to what you know, and what you know is the class and level system very well.
Ever heard of EVE? :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah I am quite happy that Paizo don't appear to follow the rest of the leveling-MMO crowd, but instead the skill-based / sandbox option of EVE and UO.
As far as I am aware there exists nothing like the EVE sandbox for a fantasy setting (AAA quality), so there should definitely be a market for that.
Also to the original poster: No one is forcing you to become a blacksmith, and spend all your time clicking a forge and anvil, just as no-one forces eve players to mine minerals all day. If you are more for getting into the fight, I am sure the game will allow for that, but some players actually like to spend the time building up their own little empire, rather than fighting with sword in hand.
You will not have to click a button thousands of times to get a character improvement.
If you intend to follow the skilling model of EVE, could you please consider adding some extra experience for characters that actually practice skill in game? And if there will be a skill queue (a wonderful thing), then let it be longer than mere 24 hours.
Uh, it's time to check on my training. Server will be up soon.
What i would NOT like to see:
Actually doing something over and over as the only way to get better at something. It takes time away from doing something that is actually exciting.
What i WOULD like to see:
A system that (1) allows you to know the basics of a skill without having to sacrifice too much in other areas allowing for jack-off-all-trades, but (2) on the other hand also allows one to master a skill at the expense of other skills. I think that would require a system that keeps rewarding further mastering of a skill even at higher levels of training.
I think the EVE skill system is the best I can think of right now regarding how to train a skill.
What about a usual improving while you are playing (or not) like many proposed here, so fighters for example, do not need to spend many hours to improve their smith skills BUT there is a bonus on the skill if you spend more time on this which can decrease if you do not practice your craft for a while.
This way, both kind of players can create great items but only the true "smiths" can excel at creating the best stuff.
Of course this should be balanced in a good way.
Maybe it would be good to have different kind of skills.
Something like Action skill and Knowledge/Profession Skills.
The first are developed during actual play, the seconds can be left to offline time, you set your pc to "working as ..." and it learns while you sleep/study/work/have a real life.
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errmm hate to be barer of bade news but...
Skill based is 1990's and out dated...sorry but it just will not fly with current mmo market. Is not ONE AAA mmo has a skill based system that was made in last 10 years did anything but tank. You have to understand as an avid mmo player are integral issues with Skill based system and biggest of them being balance. It is impossible to balance a system like this with out limiting points you can have which in turn ends up like talent points...
I was kind of excited about this project but i realize immediatly that sandbox is just dated... and tend to require teidious endless grinding that ends up kill 1000 monsters here, go kill 100 of these now go kill these... and in a round about way that ends up so tedious and unfun...
Bioware has the right idea when comes to mmo's and they are setting a new standard in mmo's. If you guys are SERIOUS about making a paizo mmo i suggest you go look at TOR. Even if you opt for an action oriented mmo over traditional hotkey mmo look at how they presented the game. Because presentation means alot!
Finally... research research research! because what was in 20 years ago is not in now. Things worked in SWG or EQ do not fly in the present market... so if your set on sandbox that is fine but, your going to have to make it appeal to general population! Sandbox when it comes to end game=good idea, sandbox while leveling not so much. In general skill based systems suck something fierce and you have great foundation is pathfinder rpg...use it!
-Lokai-
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Goblin Squad Member
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errmm hate to be barer of bade news but...
Skill based is 1990's and out dated...sorry but it just will not fly with current mmo market. Is not ONE AAA mmo has a skill based system that was made in last 10 years did anything but tank. You have to understand as an avid mmo player are integral issues with Skill based system and biggest of them being balance. It is impossible to balance a system like this with out limiting points you can have which in turn ends up like talent points...
I was kind of excited about this project but i realize immediatly that sandbox is just dated... and tend to require teidious endless grinding that ends up kill 1000 monsters here, go kill 100 of these now go kill these... and in a round about way that ends up so tedious and unfun...
Bioware has the right idea when comes to mmo's and they are setting a new standard in mmo's. If you guys are SERIOUS about making a paizo mmo i suggest you go look at TOR. Even if you opt for an action oriented mmo over traditional hotkey mmo look at how they presented the game. Because presentation means alot!
Finally... research research research! because what was in 20 years ago is not in now. Things worked in SWG or EQ do not fly in the present market... so if your set on sandbox that is fine but, your going to have to make it appeal to general population! Sandbox when it comes to end game=good idea, sandbox while leveling not so much. In general skill based systems suck something fierce and you have great foundation is pathfinder rpg...use it!
-Lokai-
Well Eve online which the main team seems to be more then a bit familiar with, seems to have thrived pretty well over the test of time with the sandbox box, non-level based style, and I do have to point out, for an MMO to attempt a roleplay based system (IE real roleplaying) Every level based MMO I have seen has completely failed, the 4th wall is immediately broken when you say "I can't wear that for another 3 levels" or "I can't go there until I'm level 55" etc...
To an extent level based MMO's draw direct boundaries that players either knowingly enforce, or worse the game meta enforces, and yes you are right, that isn't the current trend that every MMO is doing, but you know what? I don't want pathfinder online to be WoW-Clone-900, I want it to be something new. I think both paizo and goblin games would rather do something unique that is marginally successful and slightly profitable, then do something that is a hugely popular clone that is nearly identical to 500 other games just like it. Now personally I think that actually a unique game in either case has a better chance of being profitable then another clone of the same formula that is popular right now, due to extreme saturation in the market.
errmm hate to be barer of bade news but...
Skill based is 1990's and out dated...sorry but it just will not fly with current mmo market. Is not ONE AAA mmo has a skill based system that was made in last 10 years did anything but tank. You have to understand as an avid mmo player are integral issues with Skill based system and biggest of them being balance. It is impossible to balance a system like this with out limiting points you can have which in turn ends up like talent points...
I was kind of excited about this project but i realize immediatly that sandbox is just dated... and tend to require teidious endless grinding that ends up kill 1000 monsters here, go kill 100 of these now go kill these... and in a round about way that ends up so tedious and unfun...
Bioware has the right idea when comes to mmo's and they are setting a new standard in mmo's. If you guys are SERIOUS about making a paizo mmo i suggest you go look at TOR. Even if you opt for an action oriented mmo over traditional hotkey mmo look at how they presented the game. Because presentation means alot!
Finally... research research research! because what was in 20 years ago is not in now. Things worked in SWG or EQ do not fly in the present market... so if your set on sandbox that is fine but, your going to have to make it appeal to general population! Sandbox when it comes to end game=good idea, sandbox while leveling not so much. In general skill based systems suck something fierce and you have great foundation is pathfinder rpg...use it!
-Lokai-
You are going off the idea that everyone is absolutely trying to overthrow World of Warcraft from it's seat of popularity. On the same basis of your comments I can say *Leveling* systems aren't as popular anymore due to the fact that most are burned out on such systems. It's all about the end game. The fact that I have to wait a month or two at best (going hardcore for some) to be able to play with my friends is absolutely stupid.
Most games going leveling now are simply dropping the veneer of having a great leveling experience (I am looking at RIFT) because no one pays much attention to the level 1 to level 50 (or whatever the last level is) because people just want to be at the end game.
The best way to make it viable that you can start adventuring with your buddies without holding anyone back is a skill based system. UO was amazing in it's time - the first MMO (not MUD)! They had it down until they started adding all the new power-up adamantine armor or whatnot. You could out of the gate go ANYWHERE in the world and still have a chance to survive. Granted at low skill combat you wouldn't do much or be able to take much punishment, but you could still adventure with friends.
Once everyone and their mother hit that final level, other than leveling up alts to have other options to play most people will. be. done. with the leveling grind. I mean seriously, at this point Blizzard can remove the whole level 1-84 leveling process and NO ONE would cry over it. Maybe twinks who PvP or those who actually worked to get there, but the leveling process is mundane now.
It isn't because the trend of MMOs has something right, it's the fact that most skill based systems you've seen done were most likely not well thought out or done. I honestly don't know of any "skill based" games after UO. People throw out EVE so I can only take their words for it. Beyond EVE, I am willing to bet any "skill based systems" you've mentioned were some hybrid of the level/skill system like WoW is. They were NOT pure-skill based like UO which was a dang fine game back in it's time.
It also doesn't help that in leveling games that once you hit a certain level you generally don't return to most areas for any practical purposes anymore. You stay in the big cities except to travel to PvP or do dungeons. Once you've passed the level 20 area, you have no dang reason to go back to it except maybe for achievements.
Then, once you hit that max level it's the grind for better gear. This is why in another thread I suggested making store bought items more than enough to do anything so we don't need to do the gear grind. The idea I need to grind past 8 "tiers" of gear to be useful is *stupid*.
Here's another concept to try out
Have TWO systems. The skill based system for general online and world play. Then have the traditional Core RPG level system for special adventure paths that can be opted for. So you can do an adventure path at level 17 today, then tomorrow do an level 4 adventure path. You set up your levels at the time you begin the adventure paths specifically (kind of like dungeons or instances in other games) and can have the skill based stuff for the online specific game.
You hold the flavor of the skill system changing the world and making it better. You also hold the traditional RPG flavor of levels doing adventure paths that you don't have to make new characters for but simply set the necessary levels prior to doing them. It takes the level grind out of the way while allowing you to keep that level flavor.
Another idea is when you do specific type quests it helps with the skill system. Example, doing blacksmith quests reward you with freebie "blacksmith skill points". So you aren't simply doing the same action over and over. It could be a whole quest line indoctrinating you into the Order of the Hammer or something, most of which introduces you to important NPCs or has you travel around to various places to keep the economy fluctuating outside of an Auction House.
Lastly, your argument that skill based MMOs fail because of the current trend is flawed.
The reason I state this is because you would be hard pressed to show me these truly skill based systems that failed. Chances are if you could, no one really heard of them in the first place due to not being from a reputable company. Secondly, we could look at their marketing scheme and see that most likely they dealt with more of the underground market than the mainstream.
Third and finally, all the companies I am aware of now have been doing leveling based systems. After Ultima Online there never was a true skill based system to try. - Again never played EVE so I can't comment on that game specifically. It isn't they failed, it's that players in recent years weren't given the opportunity to play a genuine one that wasn't some hybrid of the level system.
The key to this is because they can make preset content by which they can fire and forget and the game generally runs itself. Leaving the developer's focus to be solely on end game content. Whereas UO had a volunteer team that had GM-type powers or connections to truly immerse people into the world without the need to "go to that dungeon or level to 80". Another key issue with skill based is that since it's not level based we need to avoid making 20 levels of uber gear that are obsolete as soon as people start accessing the end stuff. UO had it where store-bought gear was all you needed, if that. You buy the gear and good to go for adventuring. A PC blacksmith could make you a masterwork sword that was better than the store bought stuff and was plenty for anything you wanted to do - even kill Balrons(balrog equivalent in UO).
With a level system you need those uber items to continue being up to snuff, but a skill base system tends to hurt more because of uber items. Yes, UO had it's magical weapons that were better than normal items but not so much that you had to spend hours to grind for that one weapon or item. [Prior to EA adding special metals to make gear with or stats into the items]
Skill based systems are awesome... in actual tabletop RPGs where the GM is working directly with the players. In video games and especially MMOs I'm not sure it can work. There are some things a video game just can't do... until we have true AIs and direct neural interface anyways.
Skill based systems tend to work well with modern and futuristic settings because that is expected from a scientific viewpoint or framework. When you consider fantasy, the choices would be much less, and may give the appearance of being shallow, unless you have a class framework to help support it.
In addition, skill based systems tend to loose focus (or the unique factor), as everyone tends to take the same builds.
While I actually like the sandbox style (TSW for example), I think I would miss the pathfinder classes and all of their alternate archtypes & alternate class features. Could there be a way to keep classes, but allow for freedom of where you wanted to grow within their available class abilities?
I think it would be odd to have ranger favored enemy, an eidolon, channeled healing and flurry of blows all within one character.
(well sure you could multi-class for this... but you'd be far weaker in any one of those aspects than someone specilized in them)
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Goblin Squad Member
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While I actually like the sandbox style (TSW for example), I think I would miss the pathfinder classes and all of their alternate archtypes & alternate class features. Could there be a way to keep classes, but allow for freedom of where you wanted to grow within their available class abilities?
I think it would be odd to have ranger favored enemy, an eidolon, channeled healing and flurry of blows all within one character.
Well based on the FAQs and questions/answers that the developers have been posting, they seem to be 100% in agreement on using all of the core classes adding archtypes. I would have to guess that the system of gaining abilities spells etc... will be either based on certain skill levels or something to that extent if they do not do a level based system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I began reading these boards after receiving the email in my inbox, and when I started I was positively VIBRATING with excitement. The more I read, the more my excitement falls and fades.
All I want is a powerful, versatile system to RP online with my friends, and instead we're getting this skill-based POS that sounds like EVE tacked on over my favorite RPG.
CRs
Class Levels
Party Levels
Conning (as in: Considering Different Power Levels)
Spell Levels
None of this works in the skill-system. You're gutting Pathfinder for flavor and leaving the elegant skeleton to rot in the sun. Bad Form. DDO made gameplay impossible for the casual gamer. Without a ready and easily formed group I couldn't handle quests. I explored the jungle and found myself stomped. Bad design decision. In EVE online I found myself CONTINUOUSLY confounded by the slow... crawling... pointless... leveling... system... It took forever. No, no button-presses, just pointless waiting. That's a browser game, not an MMO. Meanwhile, top-level pirates would slide out of the dark and vaporize you to suck the marrow from your vacuum frozen corpse, and you couldn't HOPE to defend yourself, and the economy was so bloated that without being in on the ground floor there were titanic hurdles that could never be overcome.
I don't like them. I don't want them. I and others like me will be forced to take our money elsewhere.
You HAVE a game system! Why are you reinventing the wheel!? Why would you license the name if you're not going to make the electronic game? Are you just capitalizing on the brand recognition? What exactly is -wrong- with the Pathfinder game and it's painstakingly balanced rules that makes you feel you need to create something else for it?
Persistent NWN worlds were infinitely playable... they tried to be true to form in an online world, but even they fell short. You have an opportunity here, but you're going to waste it on something NOT Pathfinder? That hurts me deep down where the puppies live.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just a quick note: XP/leveling system gives the no-life grinders an edge over everybody else. EVE-style passive skill leveling doesn't do that. What you ask for and what you want is not always the same.
List of things people like to complain about in MMOs without really understanding them:
"I hate skill-based systems!"
"I hate level-based systems!"
"I hate open-world PvP!"
"I hate subscriptions!"
"I hate easy resurrection!"
The best is when you hear something along the lines of "You should do it this way: [insert set of features that are utterly impossible to implement in an MMO, or are antithetical to the project's goals], it's the only way I'll play your game!"
If you happen to go with a skill based/crafting system then you should make any item that drops in game also able to be created by players. The biggest issue I had with games is that equipment takes precedence over actual game play skill.
If you make a PVP system you should also use a bluff system that allows people to be able to mask their levels. Also if you do PVP you should consider that people select a style they model their equipment after. This would stop people from being able to tell you level by the equipment you have. This would help limit some of the PVP gankers that just want to kill lowbies. I am just making the above suggestions because I have been on both sides of being the ganker and gankee.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If it is a sandbox then I think something slanted to a skill based leveling system is more appropriate, IMO.
Why can there not be both Class and Skill based in one game?
This is just an idea, feel free to improve upon it, but why not? At the base all classes use skills, why not have the foundation of the game be based on a skill system. Then have an additional layer of classes on top.
I hate class systems because you are stuck as that class and (for me) kills creativity.
Lets say you create a character, you can pick a class which automatically selects skills for you to use or a custom option that allows you to pick and choose skills to work on ala UO. If a class is chosen it places you on a rail so to speak, a linear path (just like other MMOs with a class system) and may (or not) automatically increase certain stats. Now later you can derail yourself from a class and increase/decrease certain stats if you so choose.
I like the option of gaining different skills (thus dropping others) later in a game if I can.
I would be highly disappointed if Pathfinder Online jumped on the ole' class based system bandwagon.
"Z"
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you happen to go with a skill based/crafting system then you should make any item that drops in game also able to be created by players.
"Aw man, another quest to go out and retrieve dire bear gizzards? Maybe I'll just craft the gizzards myself, this time. Now, where did I put my portable stem cell laboratory?"
Oh, you meant, like, equipment. Sorry.
A lot of people at the moment are hyperventilating on the lack of information and the ideas about the game we have conjoured up in our minds. I would suggest that we should all just calm down for a little while and wait for Goblinworks to release information when they feel confident enough.
Skill-based system could be anything from EvE, Perpetuum, Mortal Online, Darkfall or even skyrim for that matter.
Goblinworks Founder
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A lot of people at the moment are hyperventilating on the lack of information and the ideas about the game we have conjoured up in our minds. I would suggest that we should all just calm down for a little while and wait for Goblinworks to release information when they feel confident enough.
Skill-based system could be anything from EvE, Perpetuum, Mortal Online, Darkfall or even skyrim for that matter.
This is from the goblinworks FAQ. I do wish people would stop the panic mongering and actually research instead of listening to word of mouth.
There is an Archtype system to complement the skill system.What classes will I be able to play?
Pathfinder Online's innovative archetype system includes specific paths of development that reflect the classes in the tabletop game, so if you want to play a character that mirrors a classic tabletop class, you'll be able to do it. However, Pathfinder Online is driven by more diverse player activity than the classic adventurer-focused tabletop experience; Pathfinder Online players will be able to act as merchants, farmers, miners, teamsters, caravan guards, spies, and explorers, and in any other role the players choose to create. Characters will have a wide variety of skills to develop, allowing them to be highly customized to the player's preference.
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Pathfinder Online's innovative archetype system includes specific paths of development that reflect the classes in the tabletop game, so if you want to play a character that mirrors a classic tabletop class, you'll be able to do it. However, Pathfinder Online is driven by more diverse player activity than the classic adventurer-focused tabletop experience; Pathfinder Online players will be able to act as merchants, farmers, miners, teamsters, caravan guards, spies, and explorers, and in any other role the players choose to create. Characters will have a wide variety of skills to develop, allowing them to be highly customized to the player's preference.[/i]
I saw that already. It's what got me concerned in the first place.
When I read it, I translate it from marketing-speak as:
The game system has nothing to do with the pathfinder rules. But, hey, pretend to be anything you want! Most of what you will be doing is boring tedious tasks like clicking on a farm to grow enough corn to feed enough cattle to get enough cow hides to make enough leather that you make into a mediocre leather armor. Then you can click on squirrels until your animal skills are high enough to get a dog to follow you. Now go be a ranger! Too dull for you? Great! Just enter your credit card number and you can get to killing those kobolds without all the mind-numbing virtual drudgery. Otherwise, warm up that finger, 'cause you'll be clickin'
Chief Technical Officer
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Pathfinder Online's innovative archetype system includes specific paths of development that reflect the classes in the tabletop game, so if you want to play a character that mirrors a classic tabletop class, you'll be able to do it. However, Pathfinder Online is driven by more diverse player activity than the classic adventurer-focused tabletop experience; Pathfinder Online players will be able to act as merchants, farmers, miners, teamsters, caravan guards, spies, and explorers, and in any other role the players choose to create. Characters will have a wide variety of skills to develop, allowing them to be highly customized to the player's preference.[/i]I saw that already. It's what got me concerned in the first place.
When I read it, I translate it from marketing-speak as:
The game system has nothing to do with the pathfinder rules. But, hey, pretend to be anything you want! Most of what you will be doing is boring tedious tasks like clicking on a farm to grow enough corn to feed enough cattle to get enough cow hides to make enough leather that you make into a mediocre leather armor. Then you can click on squirrels until your animal skills are high enough to get a dog to follow you. Now go be a ranger! Too dull for you? Great! Just enter your credit card number and you can get to killing those kobolds without all the mind-numbing virtual drudgery. Otherwise, warm up that finger, 'cause you'll be clickin'
I can't decide if your decision to read the worst in things is really depressing, or if the fact that such a horrifically negative view pretty much ensures that you will be pleasantly surprised makes up for that.
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I can't decide if your decision to read the worst in things is really depressing, or if the fact that such a horrifically negative view pretty much ensures that you will be pleasantly surprised makes up for that.
Pathfinder Online's innovative archetype system includes specific paths of development that reflect the classes in the tabletop game, so if you want to play a character that mirrors a classic tabletop class, you'll be able to do it. However, Pathfinder Online is driven by more diverse player activity than the classic adventurer-focused tabletop experience; Pathfinder Online players will be able to act as merchants, farmers, miners, teamsters, caravan guards, spies, and explorers, and in any other role the players choose to create. Characters will have a wide variety of skills to develop, allowing them to be highly customized to the player's preference.[/i]I saw that already. It's what got me concerned in the first place.
When I read it, I translate it from marketing-speak as:
The game system has nothing to do with the pathfinder rules. But, hey, pretend to be anything you want! Most of what you will be doing is boring tedious tasks like clicking on a farm to grow enough corn to feed enough cattle to get enough cow hides to make enough leather that you make into a mediocre leather armor. Then you can click on squirrels until your animal skills are high enough to get a dog to follow you. Now go be a ranger! Too dull for you? Great! Just enter your credit card number and you can get to killing those kobolds without all the mind-numbing virtual drudgery. Otherwise, warm up that finger, 'cause you'll be clickin'
Past experience dose not granite future results.
It how ever is a very good indicator.And experience tells me I really dislike the skill base MMORPG's. And that they are just as boring as watching paint dry. Every one I have ever played has the same problem.
If your not using the class/level model? Is it really pathfinder? Not to most people that play PNP pathfinder. Can it be a good game yes. Will it be pathfinder to the majority pathfinder fans? Not really, because the class / level system is the base of the game if you remove it. You have no real tie to the game system. Now you can set it where ever you want. But that dose not change the fact most PNP players will want to see a familiar game system. Not something completely different from the PNP. They will want to play there Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, and Wizards. And they will want to play them in such a way that they could make the same character for PNP, or to make there PNP pathfinder character in the Pathfinder MMORPG.
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Goblinworks Founder
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I can't decide if your decision to read the worst in things is really depressing, or if the fact that such a horrifically negative view pretty much ensures that you will be pleasantly surprised makes up for that.
Pathfinder Online's innovative archetype system includes specific paths of development that reflect the classes in the tabletop game, so if you want to play a character that mirrors a classic tabletop class, you'll be able to do it. However, Pathfinder Online is driven by more diverse player activity than the classic adventurer-focused tabletop experience; Pathfinder Online players will be able to act as merchants, farmers, miners, teamsters, caravan guards, spies, and explorers, and in any other role the players choose to create. Characters will have a wide variety of skills to develop, allowing them to be highly customized to the player's preference.[/i]I saw that already. It's what got me concerned in the first place.
When I read it, I translate it from marketing-speak as:
The game system has nothing to do with the pathfinder rules. But, hey, pretend to be anything you want! Most of what you will be doing is boring tedious tasks like clicking on a farm to grow enough corn to feed enough cattle to get enough cow hides to make enough leather that you make into a mediocre leather armor. Then you can click on squirrels until your animal skills are high enough to get a dog to follow you. Now go be a ranger! Too dull for you? Great! Just enter your credit card number and you can get to killing those kobolds without all the mind-numbing virtual drudgery. Otherwise, warm up that finger, 'cause you'll be clickin'Past experience dose not granite future results.
It how ever is a very good indicator.And experience tells me I really dislike the skill base MMORPG's. And that they are just as boring as watching paint dry. Every one I have ever played has the same problem.
If your not...
I'm both a PnP player and an MMO/PC player and whilst I am always very skeptical of marketing jargon, I am not that concerned with the current information.
The Elder Scrolls games are a good example of a skill based system, I have no problems whatsoever making a character that can mimic a traditional Pathfinder or even Basic D&D class using a skill based system.
I will always consider myself a table top gamer first and a PC gamer second, yet I have absolutely no problem with skill systems. d20 rules are a skill system with archtypes, pre-3e rules were a class system. I prefer skill systems.
Also, what some people find dreary and boring (growing corn to feed cattle to get cow hides)I can guarantee you that there would be a whole other portion of the community that would squeal in delight. If you don't want to farm cattle to make hide, go and hunt deer instead.
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Goblinworks Founder
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Sandbox when it comes to end game=good idea, sandbox while leveling not so much.
-Lokai-Can someone explain this philosophy for me? Because I don't get it at all.
Personally speaking, I don't WANT an 'end game.' I want the same kind of roleplay and interactive experience at the start of the game as at the end. 'Leveling' should be something that happens along the way, something you grind for.
Indeed, I'm not sure if people understand the concept of sandbox.
I for one would be far more interested in a sandbox with no limit. That is a true sandbox to me, leveling skills is just something that happens while you adventure, it isn't a chore that needs to be done so you can be a hero at level cap.
I am really hoping that being in a low level dungeon or area will be just as fulfilling as a high level. I'm also hoping that playing through a second or third time will be uniquely different to the first time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Indeed, I'm not sure if people understand the concept of sandbox.I for one would be far more interested in a sandbox with no limit. That is a true sandbox to me, leveling skills is just something that happens while you adventure, it isn't a chore that needs to be done so you can be a hero at level cap.
I am really hoping that being in a low level dungeon or area will be just as fulfilling as a high level. I'm also hoping that playing through a second or third time will be uniquely different to the first time.
You can simulate this by having limits that are not feasible to reach. For instance, if the number of points necessary to level a given skill increases exponentially, eventually you will get to a point where it takes months of straight grinding to level...and the next one will take even more. At this point you are still technically gaining experience toward the next level, but you are also as good as the best in the world at your given skill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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EVE's skill point system? Oh please, no. Sorry, it's just that for some skills at Level 4 or 5 can take up to 5 months to level up. I don't even want to wait 9 days for a single skill to level up. If you pay $15 monthly, that's like 1.5 skills increased by 1. Not worth it.
The whole point of those skills is that reaching level 5 in them is a tremendous achievement, and is typically associated with training the ability to pilot or use some of the best equipment the game has to offer. Because of the corp structure, most pilots will never need to spend a month and a half training a single skill.
The funny thing about all this is that it is still some kind of "leveling up" we are talking about.
I say to not remove this vital thing of D&D and Pathfinder...
...I mean...why?
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I miss my Ultima Online. Resurrect it , preaty please.
I miss my Ultima Online. Resurrect it , preaty please.
Too late for resurrection... Animate dead is the only possibility left...
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
EVE's skill point system? Oh please, no. Sorry, it's just that for some skills at Level 4 or 5 can take up to 5 months to level up. I don't even want to wait 9 days for a single skill to level up. If you pay $15 monthly, that's like 1.5 skills increased by 1. Not worth it.
Patently false.
Some skill can require a couple of months for the level 5 rank, but that is the equivalent of getting the last level of "falchinon master specialization" at 5 after getting:- melee skill
-- sword skill
--- two handed sword specialization
---- falchion expertise
----- falchion specialization
and the your goals of
------ falchion grandmaster specialization
After all that you are the best with your falchion and you should be, but a guy that has spent half of your time training it will get 80-90% of the damage you can do.
With all the flaws of the game EVE skill system is one of its best points. It don't depend on how many times you have hit something with that sword but in the actual time (RL time) your character has spent training with it while you were on and off line.
A bot will not help you with training, and that is one of the best things for a game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Apart from being robust against botting, an open sandbox game must do what it can to let the "normal" players have a chance against the 24/7 players.
If grinding is the way to go this will not happen unless you restrict interaction heavily - which in turn is anathema to open sandbox.
Players playing 24/7 have other advantages (mostly on an organisational and/or social and/or knowledge basis) that makes up for not being that much more powerful mechanically.
So sandbox plus leveling by playing is hard to do just as skill based auto level plus themepark is.