paizo.com Recent Posts in Skill Based Is A Bad Ideapaizo.com Recent Posts in Skill Based Is A Bad Idea2011-11-23T07:54:27Z2011-11-23T07:54:27ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Skill Based Is A Bad IdeaPurplefixerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n62m&page=2?Skill-Based-Is-A-Bad-Idea#592011-12-08T04:07:25Z2011-12-08T04:07:25Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kryzbyn wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Because that's not the direction they wish to take it.
</p>
I'd like to see what they do come up with, before saying "Nah, that sucks, go back to a class based system." </blockquote><p>Yeah, okay, I'll give that a go.
<p>I'm coming from a place of "but I don't like that" but I can work around to a place of "Let's see if it sucks before making snap judgements". I mean... I really like Pathfinder. I don't really like skill-based systems. Perhaps it will be like trout and peanutbutter?</p>
<p>"You got your peanutbutter on my trout!"
<br />
"You got your trout in my peanutbutter!"</p>
<p>...</p>
<p>•lick•</p>Kryzbyn wrote:Because that's not the direction they wish to take it.
I'd like to see what they do come up with, before saying "Nah, that sucks, go back to a class based system."
Yeah, okay, I'll give that a go. I'm coming from a place of "but I don't like that" but I can work around to a place of "Let's see if it sucks before making snap judgements". I mean... I really like Pathfinder. I don't really like skill-based systems. Perhaps it will be like trout and peanutbutter?
"You got your...Purplefixer2011-12-08T04:07:25ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Skill Based Is A Bad IdeaUleaumhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n62m&page=2?Skill-Based-Is-A-Bad-Idea#582011-12-08T08:26:33Z2011-12-02T22:52:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">superfly2000 wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I see it just as a poor example of "how we are trying to get away from grinding".</p>
<p>It seems to common belief today that you can get/achieve something without working for it.</p>
<p>I have played EVE a little bit and I can tell you that it is probably more grindy than anything else (although not saying it is bad).</p>
<p>So...to get back to my point...why not stick to the level system which is indeed more D&D like and as any kind of other system will still require some form of grinding/time consumption... </blockquote><p>The reason is resources. A MMO based on Neverwinter Nights clone, would be a better game. To make nwn clone MMO (or any MMO setting) requires at a minimum: a play balanced individual combat system, balance group combat system, an interactive environment, social and economic interaction mechanisms, and the people and funds to make the game.
<p>PLAY BALANCED INDIVIDUAL COMBAT SYSTEM</p>
<p>Neverwinter Nights demonstrated that an OGL compatible system could be coded for multiplayer. It did not implement all the features of 3.5. What game features that would be traded for full (or near full) compatibility with OGL is an economic decision. The complexity of the Pathfinder system means that abuse by player design could be rampant. Developers tend to like to keep the math in front of them. Nonlinear events like status attacks(hold, disoreint, sleep) give devs a real hard time. The more complex something is the harder it is to design. Cryptic devs even made comments that “no one likes statue fighting” in the City of Heroes forums when they have a whole archetype dedicated to that type of fighting. It would be more appropriate to say no one likes to be the helpless victim of an attack when a player cannot make an individual choice to have a defense against that attack.</p>
<p>Identifying abuse of the OGL could be crowd sourced since so may people are familiar with the system, but submissions from outside sources have been identified as not part of the business model of Goblinworks right now. Goblinworks needs a knowledge power up or cash infusion to pull off an OGL based game.</p>
<p>BALANCED GROUP PLAY</p>
<p>If balanced individual play can be achieved with OGL, the raw computation power of a server farm would make it fairly easy step to mass simulation of complex battles not possible under PnP models. Coding for coordination of this type of battle would be an extra design event and require the extra constraints of the individual combat system be developed first. The probability of success of the sequential development means the risk of failure and/or poor quality of the main game mechanic of group play is higher than starting with group mechanic and working your way down.</p>
<p>A business decision to begin with balanced group play and shoe horn an individual combat system into it, is apparently the decision of the current business model. Cheaper, in every sense of the word.</p>
<p>INTERACTIVE ENVIRONMENT </p>
<p>EVE online has a limited PvE environment, but the main focus is on PvP. The Bartle Types for this the Killer. The Killer is small part the of gaming population. The craft economy of EVE puts the Bartle Type of Achiever into a secondary role. In a theme park MMO, the Achiever (as grinder) solves each monsters as puzzle being rewarded with xp, loot, faction points, and real life fame(within a small community). Theme parks are popular because of this mechanic, but require lots of developers to keep building new content. True sandbox MMOs, like EVE, have a relatively nondescript environments and rely on players to create the content. </p>
<p>With the apparent lack of investment funds, the sandbox model appears to be as least as much a business decision as style of play decision.</p>
<p>SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC INTERACTION MECHANISMS</p>
<p>The quality of economic management of any game is directly correlated to how complicated a game is. With a top down redesign approach, the economics become more controllable. Another business decision.</p>
<p>Social interaction is something that is difficult to comment on, because the devs haven't committed to anything yet. This could be something wonderful, but if it's too much like EVE, it will be a catastrophe. The only thing the devs seem to keeping is the world of Golarion. So first they have to spend the resources to create Golarion, then let the players take control of the world, destroying much of what they just built. If PFO is truly sandbox there will be race to see who can kill the listed rulers, even if the rulers were players who won the Alpha test. The culture and world of Golarian will probably be destroyed in short order. This is the part I don't think the devs thought all the way though on. This part of the game is not going to save any money in initial development and may actually cost more.</p>
<p>Science Fiction is about what could be, and fantasy is about what should be. The anarcho capitalistic world of EVE is sterile compared to the vivid and rich culture of Pathfinder or even games like WoW. Each idiosyncrasy adds to the value and the complexity, which is both the goal of game design and the problem of play balance. It's a mistake to go down this design path simply because of genre, but Wizards of the Coast threw away 3.5 in favor of a DPS balanced system suitable for console play(think Xbox not PC). Goblinworks is also making the Fourth Edition Mistake, but it's going to happen unless we keep pointing it out. It is possible to independently develop a game system as comprehensive as the OGL, but it certainly doesn't make good business sense redevelop a system when you already have one.</p>
<p>PEOPLE, FUNDS, AND IDEAS</p>
<p>Goblinworks is following business model where each independent decision makes business sense. Goblinworks has a license but few human resources or funds. Raising funds requires attracting investors. Investors want to see past results and future plans. Past results come from successful MMO's like EVE. Future plans require a game system, and developing in the OGL to an MMO is beyond the current resources of Goblinworks, so a new, simpler system has to be invented. The new system is like EVE and the world is like WoW, so a distinct brand identity can be made. The player on player action cuts down on some development cost. The Goblinworks team has experience with this type of model so that's what their using, but I think they need another way. They are headed for developing a game for the small niche of unrestricted PvP in a genre that is not very compatible with it.</p>
<p>The reason is why a Neverwinter Nights clone is not being made is resources, human and financial.</p>superfly2000 wrote:I see it just as a poor example of "how we are trying to get away from grinding".
It seems to common belief today that you can get/achieve something without working for it.
I have played EVE a little bit and I can tell you that it is probably more grindy than anything else (although not saying it is bad).
So...to get back to my point...why not stick to the level system which is indeed more D&D like and as any kind of other system will still require some form of...Uleaum2011-12-02T22:52:01ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Skill Based Is A Bad IdeaCaineachhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n62m&page=2?Skill-Based-Is-A-Bad-Idea#572011-12-08T08:26:29Z2011-12-02T21:34:25Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Anderlorn wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I am not too sure if I will be happy in a skill-based system especially since it does not feel like Pathfinder but I will keep an open mind. Hopefully, I can either beta test or at least have 30 days to decide if I like the game or not.</p>
<p>Pathfinder players tend to be more old fashion and may not play it if it does not feel like the role-playing game. </blockquote><p>FREE TO PLAY - there wont be any 30 day trial period because you can play indefinetely without paying a dime. There are many ways of doing this through microtransactions, where people who want to buy stuff with real money can but anyone can play.Anderlorn wrote:I am not too sure if I will be happy in a skill-based system especially since it does not feel like Pathfinder but I will keep an open mind. Hopefully, I can either beta test or at least have 30 days to decide if I like the game or not.
Pathfinder players tend to be more old fashion and may not play it if it does not feel like the role-playing game.
FREE TO PLAY - there wont be any 30 day trial period because you can play indefinetely without paying a dime. There are many...Caineach2011-12-02T21:34:25ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Skill Based Is A Bad IdeaOnishihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n62m&page=2?Skill-Based-Is-A-Bad-Idea#562011-12-02T21:29:16Z2011-12-02T21:29:16Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Anderlorn wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I am not too sure if I will be happy in a skill-based system especially since it does not feel like Pathfinder but I will keep an open mind. Hopefully, I can either beta test or at least have 30 days to decide if I like the game or not.</p>
<p>Pathfinder players tend to be more old fashion and may not play it if it does not feel like the role-playing game. </blockquote><p>An MMO will never feel like a table top game. Unless you happen to have a table top that seats 100,000 very very patient people. What the table top game is is virtually impossible to replicate on a massive scale. The P&P game is more or less theme park adventures, where the world is persistent, (IE everything you accomplish, does not need to be accomplished by someone else). The story is ever changing and usually custom tailored for your players. The entire fate of the universe will rest on the hands of 3-5 characters. The boring parts and waiting can all be fast-forwarded, and when you fast forward a day the entire world also moves forward with you.
<p>Bottom line, the mechanics can not be ported over, to a world that is both persistent and real time. The feel that can be carried over, familiar spells, the Goloreon setting + monsters + themes.</p>Anderlorn wrote:I am not too sure if I will be happy in a skill-based system especially since it does not feel like Pathfinder but I will keep an open mind. Hopefully, I can either beta test or at least have 30 days to decide if I like the game or not.
Pathfinder players tend to be more old fashion and may not play it if it does not feel like the role-playing game.
An MMO will never feel like a table top game. Unless you happen to have a table top that seats 100,000 very very patient...Onishi2011-12-02T21:29:16ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Skill Based Is A Bad IdeaAnderlornhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n62m&page=2?Skill-Based-Is-A-Bad-Idea#552011-12-02T20:31:02Z2011-12-02T20:31:02Z<p>I am not too sure if I will be happy in a skill-based system especially since it does not feel like Pathfinder but I will keep an open mind. Hopefully, I can either beta test or at least have 30 days to decide if I like the game or not.</p>
<p>Pathfinder players tend to be more old fashion and may not play it if it does not feel like the role-playing game.</p>I am not too sure if I will be happy in a skill-based system especially since it does not feel like Pathfinder but I will keep an open mind. Hopefully, I can either beta test or at least have 30 days to decide if I like the game or not.
Pathfinder players tend to be more old fashion and may not play it if it does not feel like the role-playing game.Anderlorn2011-12-02T20:31:02ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Skill Based Is A Bad IdeaOnishihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n62m&page=2?Skill-Based-Is-A-Bad-Idea#542011-12-02T18:45:18Z2011-12-02T18:45:18Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kryzbyn wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Because that's not the direction they wish to take it.
</p>
I'd like to see what they do come up with, before saying "Nah, that sucks, go back to a class based system." </blockquote><p>+1 to this.
<p>Really we have no vague idea on what idea Ryan and the gang have in mind as far as how the skill system goes. My gut feeling is it is something well outside what any current games have. Now could it be just a rehash of eves system, maybe I don't have the name goblin works in my title, which means I am not qualified to tell you what is being planned.</p>
<p>What I can say is we have far too little data to say anything about what the current system is, because so far all we know is "Skill based", which could in theory mean any number of things, but directly rejecting it with less then 2 words of description, is flat out silly.</p>Kryzbyn wrote:Because that's not the direction they wish to take it.
I'd like to see what they do come up with, before saying "Nah, that sucks, go back to a class based system."
+1 to this. Really we have no vague idea on what idea Ryan and the gang have in mind as far as how the skill system goes. My gut feeling is it is something well outside what any current games have. Now could it be just a rehash of eves system, maybe I don't have the name goblin works in my title, which means I am...Onishi2011-12-02T18:45:18ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Skill Based Is A Bad IdeaKryzbynhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n62m&page=2?Skill-Based-Is-A-Bad-Idea#532011-12-02T17:42:10Z2011-12-02T17:42:10Z<p>Because that's not the direction they wish to take it.
<br />
I'd like to see what they do come up with, before saying "Nah, that sucks, go back to a class based system."</p>Because that's not the direction they wish to take it.
I'd like to see what they do come up with, before saying "Nah, that sucks, go back to a class based system."Kryzbyn2011-12-02T17:42:10ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Skill Based Is A Bad Ideasuperfly2000https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n62m&page=2?Skill-Based-Is-A-Bad-Idea#522011-12-02T12:05:21Z2011-12-02T12:05:21Z<p>I see it just as a poor example of "how we are trying to get away from grinding".</p>
<p>It seems to common belief today that you can get/achieve something without working for it.</p>
<p>I have played EVE a little bit and I can tell you that it is probably more grindy than anything else (although not saying it is bad).</p>
<p>So...to get back to my point...why not stick to the level system which is indeed more D&D like and as any kind of other system will still require some form of grinding/time consumption...</p>I see it just as a poor example of "how we are trying to get away from grinding".
It seems to common belief today that you can get/achieve something without working for it.
I have played EVE a little bit and I can tell you that it is probably more grindy than anything else (although not saying it is bad).
So...to get back to my point...why not stick to the level system which is indeed more D&D like and as any kind of other system will still require some form of grinding/time consumption...superfly20002011-12-02T12:05:21ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Skill Based Is A Bad IdeaElth (alias of Althurien)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n62m&page=2?Skill-Based-Is-A-Bad-Idea#512011-11-30T13:18:50Z2011-11-30T13:18:50Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Diego Rossi wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Plissken wrote:</div><blockquote> EVE's skill point system? Oh please, no. Sorry, it's just that for some skills at Level 4 or 5 can take up to 5 months to level up. I don't even want to wait 9 days for a single skill to level up. If you pay $15 monthly, that's like 1.5 skills increased by 1. Not worth it. </blockquote><p>Patently false.
</p>
Some skill can require a couple of months for the level 5 rank, but that is the equivalent of getting the last level of "falchinon master specialization" at 5 after getting:
<br />
- melee skill
<br />
— sword skill
<br />
—- two handed sword specialization
<br />
—— falchion expertise
<br />
——- falchion specialization
<br />
and the your goals of
<br />
——— falchion grandmaster specialization</p>
<p>After all that you are the best with your falchion and you should be, but a guy that has spent half of your time training it will get 80-90% of the damage you can do. </p>
<p>With all the flaws of the game EVE skill system is one of its best points. It don't depend on how many times you have hit something with that sword but in the actual time (RL time) your character has spent training with it while you were on and off line. </p>
<p>A bot will not help you with training, and that is one of the best things for a game. </p>
<p></blockquote><p>This is exactly how I have been imagining the PFO system to work as well. Thanks for putting into writing, now it's easier to visualize.Diego Rossi wrote:Plissken wrote: EVE's skill point system? Oh please, no. Sorry, it's just that for some skills at Level 4 or 5 can take up to 5 months to level up. I don't even want to wait 9 days for a single skill to level up. If you pay $15 monthly, that's like 1.5 skills increased by 1. Not worth it.
Patently false.
Some skill can require a couple of months for the level 5 rank, but that is the equivalent of getting the last level of "falchinon master specialization" at 5 after...Elth (alias of Althurien)2011-11-30T13:18:50Z