Have you guys decided on a game engine for the MMO yet, i had read something about a year ago about a product called HeroEngine, they have rebranded to HeroCloud and they have free licencing and state they only take a fee once the game is published, it might be something to look into. One of the games that is using the HeroEngine is the new Star Wars: the Old Republic and they had said that using the hero engine was going to take a few months of the production time of the game.
here is a little excerpt from their site http://www.heroengine.com.
"HeroCloud License
The HeroCloud service gives your team a complete system for developing and launching an MMO game, 3D virtual world, or online simulation. With HeroCloud a small team is freed from the chores of managing servers and network and they stay focused on building and creating their product.
HeroCloud includes access to the all of HeroEngine, the leading platform for collaborative online game design. Your team is issued a set of accounts and passwords and you download the HeroBlade toolset to access your very own online world. No matter where your team members are located, whether in the same room or around the world, they meet in your world to work together to build your online world.
Once you are ready to launch your world to your customers, HeroCloud takes care of the details. We provide access to global billing solutions, we give you a console to monitor your usage and performance, and we give you the ability to add and remove servers as needed.
Licensing fee: Free, including access for up to 99 developers. Once (or if) your game is published and begins making money, we keep 30% of revenue.
Hosting: We host your server in the cloud for free. No need to build separate operations team.
Billing: We provide integrated billing options to instantly accept credit cards and other payment options.
"
Goblin Squad Member
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We are definitely planning to use an existing engine. This will help us get the game in your hands as soon as possible. :-)
But, we aren't ready to make any announcements about which engine in particular - we'll have to close that deal first.
Sounds good. My first question after reading the announcement, and the the Goblinworks website and FAQ was exactly the question about the engine. The good thing is that there are plenty of high-quality engines out there, so that should ensure that at least graphically we will get an awesome PF MMO experience.
Keep us posted!
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Goblin Squad Member
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We are definitely planning to use an existing engine. This will help us get the game in your hands as soon as possible. :-)
But, we aren't ready to make any announcements about which engine in particular - we'll have to close that deal first.
Sounds good. My first question after reading the announcement, and the the Goblinworks website and FAQ was exactly the question about the engine. The good thing is that there are plenty of high-quality engines out there, so that should ensure that at least graphically we will get an awesome PF MMO experience.
Keep us posted!
Mind you, an engine doesn't make a game automatically attractive. Excellent art direction is just as important as an excellent engine. Thankfully, this is Paizo we're talking about. Art direction is something of a fetish for them.
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Whatever you do, please don't pick Gamebryo!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Whatever you do, please don't pick Gamebryo!
Agreed on the Gamebryo thing. From my minimal knowledge about these things, I believe there are a few Korean MMO's that use the Unreal Engine. That engine looks great, and combat in it always seems to be very fun :) Just a thought, though there could be technical hurdles there that I'm not aware of.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't rightly know what engine you're using, but you mention that cross-platform support will be post-launch. While understandable, you could save yourself a ton of money, development time, and hassle by doing one of the following:
1 - Transgaming's Cider wrapper. Finish the Windows implementation, toss Cider around it, and have it ready for Cross-Platform launch on day one. Pro: Less development time. Con: Additional licensing fees.
2 - Do what Blizzard, Bungie, and a ton of others have done, and develop two applications that read from a single resource library. The way this works is that your developers only have to write one library format, while your front-end guys put together two separate applications that simply interpret those libraries in a way that the user's OS can understand. A patch to the game need only be done to the back-end library, with minimal changes to the front-end client. Pro: Shortened development cycles, which save money, time, and manpower. Unlike option 1, you're not licensing out a second application to get your game to market. Con: You're essentially working with two applications at that point.
Mac support is trivial, these days, honestly. The hardware is either factually identical, or in cases where it is not, functionally identical, between the two camps. Your issues will be with software and software only. And, hey, bonus, since it's a microkernel MachBSD/Darwin, implementation for Mac OS X will give you potential for other *nix platforms as well. There are a ton of "professionals" that will give you Very Good Reasons why you don't want to do cross platform support out of the gate. These people are not paying attention to actual user numbers, and live in 1987. Do not listen to them.
Best of luck, guys!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mind you, an engine doesn't make a game automatically attractive. Excellent art direction is just as important as an excellent engine. Thankfully, this is Paizo we're talking about. Art direction is something of a fetish for them.
Scott is right, It's not the engine that make the game attractive, it's the sum of the parts that make it attractive.
If a single part is crappy it makes the whole game look crappy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Whatever you do, please don't pick Gamebryo!
Dark Age of Camelot/Warhammer Online from the mmorpg side of things used the Gamebryo engine decently to portray the essence of the respective IP. For single player there is really no better example at the moment than Skyrim (and the previous Elder Scrolls/Fallout 3 games). Even with the complexity of the world, it allows for a decent range of hardware setups. The Unreal engine, while nice, is more for single player eye candy games over mmorpgs.
My biggest hope is of course 64 bit and multithreading support out of the gate. HeroEngine does not support the latter yet.
...potential for other *nix platforms as well.
I can only hope...
There are a ton of "professionals" that will give you Very Good Reasons why you don't want to do cross platform support out of the gate. These people are not paying attention to actual user numbers, and live in 1987. Do not listen to them.
As a long-time Linux user, I'd like to second you here--because I would like nothing more than to see a Linux version of PFO--but I'm not entirely sure the numbers support you. On the one hand, Mac has been hovering at around ~10% market share for the past several years. On the other hand, among the subset of home computers priced at $1,000 or more, they have ~90% market share. What that tells me is that the overwhelming majority of people with significant disposable income buy Macs. If you're trying to sell a non-essential item, targeting people with significant disposable income is generally a pretty goo strategy. That being said, hard-core computer gamers still overwhelmingly favor PCs (I would guess that the ~10% of $1,000+ home computers that are PCs, are overwhelmingly gaming rigs).
Bottom line is: I'm skeptical as to how much the market numbers have moved since the late '80s. I would very much like to see some actual numbers. Do you happen to have any handy?
That's a very good point about folks with disposable income buying Macs now. They are seen as the premium PC. I saw the revolution happen with programmers as well - at least half of the web programmers have moved to OSX.
That's all we have at home now. Cut us off from DDO so far. PFO could pick us up in a heartbeat as WoW is not as fun as we'd like.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As a long-time Linux user, I'd like to second you here--because I would like nothing more than to see a Linux version of PFO--but I'm not entirely sure the numbers support you. On the one hand, Mac has been hovering at around ~10% market share for the past several years. On the other hand, among the subset of home computers priced at $1,000 or more, they have ~90% market share. What that tells me is that the overwhelming majority of people with significant disposable income buy Macs. If you're trying to sell a non-essential item, targeting people with significant disposable income is generally a pretty goo strategy. That being said, hard-core computer gamers still overwhelmingly favor PCs (I would guess that the ~10% of $1,000+ home computers that are PCs, are overwhelmingly gaming rigs).
Bottom line is: I'm skeptical as to how much the market numbers have moved since the late '80s. I would very much like to see some actual numbers. Do you happen to have any handy?
The only numbers I have are based directly on my experience working with them.
(As a side note... The numbers that most "industry professionals" quote are drawn from the most easily polled source: That being front-office and back-office companies. These are what we refer to as "marketing numbers," and use the same kind of math that has people believing that a gigabyte is an even-million bytes. Using these numbers, you get the range of 5 to 10 percent of computer users using Mac OS. This is completely factual for the subset of users being polled. If you look at actual retail data and end-user data, the numbers are a lot different.)
From 1998 to 2001, I worked for a cable modem ISP here in California. I had head-end data for all the user-OS clients hitting our service. Of our 6+ million users across 20 states, Puerto Rico, Canada, Japan, and Hong Kong, approximately 40% were using Macs. Approximately 50% were using Windows. The remaining 10% were various flavors of Unix, a few dozen OS/2 Warp machines, and two people on BeOS.
That's over two and a half million Macs. Figure two computers per household on the average (this may seem a generous estimate, but our install data showed that 90% of our installs were multi-computer households), and you're looking at over a million users with a Mac in their house, and that's over a decade ago. In the intervening time, the Mac market share has only grown larger.
I realize my data is completely subjective and anecdotal, but it is based on the hard data that I had access to at the time. (Fun fact, it's that same data that I tossed in the face of our Sales and Marketing Managers to convince them that their people needed to bone up on their Mac knowledge! Victory for the Customer Support Team!)
I just spent the last several minutes trying to get actual-factual data on Mac/Windows distribution for various popular Cross-Platform MMO's, but unfortunately that's all locked down, and my last name is not Assange.
Given that Paizo's a Mac-House, however, and that I can back up Mr. Kalmes' statements about programmers (not just web programmers - nearly everyone I work with at that place with the Y and the ! in it's name use Macs, whether they're developers, programmers, or simple Site-Up monkeys like myself), I'm of a mind that there's some serious potential, here.
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I think maybe the most revealing stats are the ones used by the Humble Indie Bundle and Wolfire Games. They get like two-thirds of their revenue (roughly) from Windows, and one-third split more or less evenly between Mac and Linux users.
They've found added benefits from supporting Linux, too: Since it's such a small community, it's easier to make waves and get Slashdotted (or the 2011 equivalent) for writing a Linux game. And the kind of players they get on Linux are not only more loyal and more willing to pay for stuff (like Mac owners), they're also more likely to send extremely detailed and helpful bug reports.
Windows is in decline, and the Humble Bundle people are ahead of the curve with cross-platform support. I strongly suggest Paizo take cues from them. (Heck, Android and iPad support might be where to aim in the long long run.)
Umm...I really hope you are wrong.
I regard the mobile games platforms as some form of uber console-like and uber casual platform.
I mean this is meant for people playing when commuting by trams or somtehing.
Far from the in-depth game experience that I'm looking for.
Sure...if you are looking to "sell as many copies as possible in a small time frame as possible", doing what everyone else is doing...this might be a good idea.
If you're looking to make a groundbreaking in-depth fantasy experience you need to look at PC and windows.
Many people will have it still...and besides...we all know where the best looking games can be made theese days...
About game engine I would like to say that staying as far away as possible from anything that has already been made is the best thing to do.
Well...maybe looking at Neverwinter Nights then like I said before...but that game engine has many years on its neck and probably needs a lot of work...beside the fact that it would be virtually impossible to get licensed to work with it.
Anyway...looking at that...maybe you could find something new...
Using these numbers, you get the range of 5 to 10 percent of computer users using Mac OS. This is completely factual for the subset of users being polled.
The Mac OS market share numbers I've seen (~10%) aren't based on polling, they're based on sales, but I would actually think that scientifically-conducted polling would provide a more accurate picture of which OSes people are actually using.
Of our 6+ million users across 20 states, Puerto Rico, Canada, Japan, and Hong Kong, approximately 40% were using Macs. Approximately 50% were using Windows. The remaining 10% were various flavors of Unix, a few dozen OS/2 Warp...
This is interesting, and I think it jives with what I said about people with more disposable income buying Macs: if ~90% of home computers sold are PCs, but only ~50% of home computers on the internet are PCs, that means that a whole lot of people who buy PCs can't afford an internet connection (or at least don't choose it as a budget priority).
Again, however, the last point I was trying to make in my previous post is that "computer users" != "computer gamers." Of your 6+ million users at that ISP, I'd be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority did not play MMOs, or AAA games in general. To figure that out, we'd need to see serious market research. Unfortunately, serious market research usually costs $$$. However, this is very telling:
I think maybe the most revealing stats are the ones used by the Humble Indie Bundle and Wolfire Games. They get like two-thirds of their revenue (roughly) from Windows, and one-third split more or less evenly between Mac and Linux users.
They've found added benefits from supporting Linux, too: Since it's such a small community, it's easier to make waves and get Slashdotted (or the 2011 equivalent) for writing a Linux game. And the kind of players they get on Linux are not only more loyal and more willing to pay for stuff (like Mac owners), they're also more likely to send extremely detailed and helpful bug reports.
I can say that, as Linux user, I tend to be pretty loyal to any developers who release native Linux versions of their games. A big driver behind this is that so few developers choose to do so. I wonder if that same level of extreme loyalty would remain if Linux games weren't so rare...but I somehow doubt if we'll ever find out. Bioware really cashed in on this with the Linux-based community that produced so many great modules for NWN, and I'm sure that Paizo could benefit in a similar way from providing a Linux client for PFO.
Windows is in decline, and the Humble Bundle people are ahead of the curve with cross-platform support. I strongly suggest Paizo take cues from them. (Heck, Android and iPad support might be where to aim in the long long run.)
You make a very good point about Android and iOS support. iPads and their Androids equivalents are already starting to displace PCs for many home applications, and I think that trend is only going to accelerate. As I mentioned earlier, Mac has the "premium home computer" market cornered, leaving Windows with the (very large but very low-margin) lower end of the home computer market. That portion of the market is going to be rapidly disrupted by even cheaper devices like Android pads and Chromebooks.
I still think that the hard-core gamers are going to stick with Windows PCs for a considerable length of time, but that will eventually change as the rest of the Windows market erodes around them. Plus, a whole new generation of gamers is going to grow up on iPads and Android tablets, and they may not like the desktop gaming experience nearly as much.
If the game engine is a good one and isn't too much of a hassle to manage, then I don't care which one they use.
I regard the mobile games platforms as some form of uber console-like and uber casual platform.
This might be true initially, but is already changing.
I mean this is meant for people playing when commuting by trams or somtehing.
A lot of people thought that, but they're actually seeing significant use in the home. I have several friends who own iPads, and it's almost all they use around the house anymore. They only sit down at a more traditional computer when they have extensive typing to do (e.g. a long email).
If you're looking to make a groundbreaking in-depth fantasy experience you need to look at PC and windows.
Nobody here is arguing that they shouldn't support Windows, only that they should also support other platforms. The original Neverwinter Nights from Bioware was "a groundbreaking in-depth fantasy experience," and it was available for Windows, Mac, and Linux, all from day one. (Maybe the Mac support was delayed a little, but I remember buying it a day or two after release, taking it home, and playing it immediately on my Linux box.)
...we all know where the best looking games can be made theese days...
Any game designed with proper cross-platform support will look just as good on a Mac or on Linux as it will on Windows. In fact, since an average Mac has much better hardware specs than an average PC (and a much less bloated OS), a cross-platform game has the potential to generally look better on Macs than it does on PCs.
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A fair number of gamers in the $1k+ section of the market will likely build their own pc's, so won't show up in any pc sales figures. High end graphics cards alone are $500+. Sales figures for GTX 580/590's and AMD 6970/6990's might give an idea about the size of this demographic. Not sure where you can find those figures though.
A fair number of gamers in the $1k+ section of the market will likely build their own pc's, so won't show up in any pc sales figures. High end graphics cards alone are $500+. Sales figures for GTX 580/590's and AMD 6970/6990's might give an idea about the size of this demographic. Not sure where you can find those figures though.
That's a very good point, although sales figures for high-end video cards would be hard to compare to sales of home computers if your goal is to get a measure of the total number of potential customers out there: an average gamer probably only buys a new computer every few years, while the kind of power-gamer who builds his own systems probably upgrades his video card at least once a year, so a given number of power-gamers will manifest in market numbers as many more sales than the same number of average gamers.
Market research is hard because of exactly this kind of issue: the number you want to measure (number of potential customers using each kind of system) is impossible to measure directly, so you have to measure by proxy, but the relationship between the proxies (systems sold, etc.) and the number you want (actual customers) is often very hard to figure out. I think that the Humble Bundle numbers are by far the most compelling numbers posted here thus far, because they deal with actual sales of games, broken down by platform. Those numbers would indicate that if your game is Windows-only, you're giving up at least a third of your potential market, and quite possibly the most loyal and helpful customers.
I saw the revolution happen with programmers as well - at least half of the web programmers have moved to OSX.
I read that as OS/2 for a second. Imagine my confusion! :-/
High end graphics cards alone are $500+.
Not really. I have Nvidia 550i which is a cheaper "bulk" kind of graphics card for a lot cheaper than that. Actually I bought a ready made HP computer where the whole computer wasn't all that expensive.
You don't need an Nvidia GTX 590 just to play.
This is misleading and a way for the industry to get payed for their so called high-end or newest cards.
Its just like the car industry that don't charge so much for their bulk model but if you want a model with more power or luxury...you'll pay.
For buying anything technological the rule is to always be at least one step behind the newest shiniest things.
A good price can only be attained at the bulk products...also theese products are almost as good.
Don't try to fry me with statistics now. I'm playing BF3 on my computer and it works just great.
High end graphics cards alone are $500+.Not really. I have Nvidia 550i which is a cheaper "bulk" kind of graphics card for a lot cheaper than that.
Errmm...
He said "high end" graphics cards are $500+, and you responded by saying, "No they're not, I got a mid-range card for much less." In no way does that refute his statement.
You are correct that second- and third-tier hardware costs significantly less and is almost as good. However, for some gamers the extra power of cutting-edge power is worth it. You don't need it to play, but it makes an appreciable difference. I used to maintain a tricked-out top-of-the-line gaming rig, and no single part stayed in it for more than a year before getting replaced. Over time I spent less and less time playing games, and it no longer made sense to spend that kind of money on hardware, so I stepped down to second- and third-tier hardware. It was at that point that I also stopped building my own systems because I realized it actually costs more to build your own than to buy a pre-built if you're not maintaining a bleeding-edge gaming rig.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope they use some newer engine like CryEngine 3 (also used by this Korean sandbox MMO http://www.archeage.com/en/pds/media )
What I have heard so far on Pathfinder Online from Ryan and others makes me have high hopes for this game. Finally a proper well built fantasy sandbox MMO. There is not a single AAA sandbox out there in the fantasy setting even though Ultima Online was the game that initially helped lauch the whole genre.
The best of Eve Online with the best of what the Pathfinder IP has to offer. This can only be good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Steam compiles some interesting statistics on their users: Steam Hardware & Software Survey
These are what we refer to as "marketing numbers," and use the same kind of math that has people believing that a gigabyte is an even-million bytes
You mean billion, right? Mega is million. Giga is billion.
And yes, a gigabyte is an even one billion bytes. No more, no less.
If you want the thing that means 1024³, that's gibibyte (GiB).
The fact that this is done wrong all the time doesn't mean that giga becomes 10^30 when talking about bytes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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These are what we refer to as "marketing numbers," and use the same kind of math that has people believing that a gigabyte is an even-million bytesYou mean billion, right? Mega is million. Giga is billion.
And yes, a gigabyte is an even one billion bytes. No more, no less.
If you want the thing that means 1024³, that's gibibyte (GiB).
The fact that this is done wrong all the time doesn't mean that giga becomes 10^30 when talking about bytes.
I had never before seen "gibibyte" or the whole IEC created (and IEEE adopted, which is interesting and was unknown to me) system. Thanks for sharing that KaeYoss...it is good to learn new things.
I had never before seen "gibibyte" or the whole IEC created (and IEEE adopted, which is interesting and was unknown to me) system. Thanks for sharing that KaeYoss...it is good to learn new things.These are what we refer to as "marketing numbers," and use the same kind of math that has people believing that a gigabyte is an even-million bytesYou mean billion, right? Mega is million. Giga is billion.
And yes, a gigabyte is an even one billion bytes. No more, no less.
If you want the thing that means 1024³, that's gibibyte (GiB).
The fact that this is done wrong all the time doesn't mean that giga becomes 10^30 when talking about bytes.
I'm like an anarchic fonts of knowledge.
Speaking of SI prefixes and their binary derivatives: we had tera and tebi for quite a while now. We should move forward. And baby steps are for babies, so I demand a HD with a capacity to be measured in YB. Or YiB. As long as it's over 1.0 in both. :D
It's about time to make them invent new prefixes. What will be after yotta?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You mean billion, right? Mega is million. Giga is billion.
I did. It was late. I plead ambulatory somnolence.
And yes, a gigabyte is an even one billion bytes. No more, no less.
If you want the thing that means 1024³, that's gibibyte (GiB).
The fact that this is done wrong all the time doesn't mean that giga becomes 10^30 when talking about bytes.
Interesting. I've been working with computers for 20 years, and never has that come up. I'm going to use this in Wednesday Night Trivia from now on.
It's about time to make them invent new prefixes. What will be after yotta?
Zetta, obviously. ;)
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Icarus Studios (who originally built the Fallen Earth MMO) have an engine ("platform") called xScape, which apparently has support for more than just Windows PC's at the client end (as well as a lot of features at the server side of things).
Maybe worth it to look into, and maybe contact them?
Speaking of SI prefixes and their binary derivatives: we had tera and tebi for quite a while now. We should move forward. And baby steps are for babies, so I demand a HD with a capacity to be measured in YB. Or YiB. As long as it's over 1.0 in both. :D
Uh, if YB is yottabyte then what spelling has YiB? Yippibyte?
It's about time to make them invent new prefixes. What will be after yotta?
Zetta, obviously. ;)
Zippibyte?
Zippibyte?
Zeppobyte.
Speaking of SI prefixes and their binary derivatives: we had tera and tebi for quite a while now. We should move forward. And baby steps are for babies, so I demand a HD with a capacity to be measured in YB. Or YiB. As long as it's over 1.0 in both. :DUh, if YB is yottabyte then what spelling has YiB? Yippibyte?
Yobibyte. Yobi is short for yotta binary. I'm sure the pattern has emerged now.
That should be changed to Yodabyte.
EDIT: You may /facepalm now.
Yobibyte. Yobi is short for yotta binary. I'm sure the pattern has emerged now.Speaking of SI prefixes and their binary derivatives: we had tera and tebi for quite a while now. We should move forward. And baby steps are for babies, so I demand a HD with a capacity to be measured in YB. Or YiB. As long as it's over 1.0 in both. :DUh, if YB is yottabyte then what spelling has YiB? Yippibyte?
Somewhere I have seen Mibibyte instead of mebibyte and it got stuck in my head.
Somewhere I have seen Mibibyte instead of mebibyte and it got stuck in my head.Yobibyte. Yobi is short for yotta binary. I'm sure the pattern has emerged now.Speaking of SI prefixes and their binary derivatives: we had tera and tebi for quite a while now. We should move forward. And baby steps are for babies, so I demand a HD with a capacity to be measured in YB. Or YiB. As long as it's over 1.0 in both. :DUh, if YB is yottabyte then what spelling has YiB? Yippibyte?
A hippibyte, on the other hand, is only seven bits, because I once found a seven-leaf clover and that was, like, so awesome, man.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's a very good point about folks with disposable income buying Macs now. They are seen as the premium PC. I saw the revolution happen with programmers as well - at least half of the web programmers have moved to OSX.That's all we have at home now. Cut us off from DDO so far. PFO could pick us up in a heartbeat as WoW is not as fun as we'd like.
I do have to say, what cut you off from DDO? While there is no official support, I know with WINE I can run DDO with full capabilities in linux (research PYLOTRO). I'm pretty sure wine works in OSX also since it is unix based.
Speaking of that, that is also one area you most likely will be able to keep your linux fans, and possibly macOS fans, (though admittedly not quite the same adoration you would get for official support, it is far cheaper). Most games work in WINE as long as you do not slap in some worthless crap like game guard on top of it.
I'm pretty sure wine works in OSX also since it is unix based.
Under OSX you have to use Darwine. Programs that work under wine don't necessarily work under Darwine.
Most games work in WINE as long as you do not slap in some worthless crap like game guard on top of it.
I wouldn't go so far as to say "most," and even many of the ones that do work, don't work perfectly. My gaming time is limited, so I have to be picky about which games I buy. I apply a lot of different criteria, so "native Linux executables" is far from the only factor I consider, but it's a big one. For me to go to the trouble of running a game under wine, it has to be something I really want to play, whereas I might buy a game that seems only moderately interesting if it has a native Linux version. In one case, there was a game I wanted to play so badly that, when it wouldn't run properly under wine, I set up Windows XP on VirtualBox just so I could play it: Arcanum (I'm a huge sucker for steampunk).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why do this?
Delusions of Grandeur coupled with bad manners I would say, but I could be wrong.
.I hope they use some newer engine like CryEngine 3
While the Cryengine produces fantastic results, it is also very taxing on the hardware.
I played Aion and liked the looks a lot (but I would have preferred to not be the only male char in my guild...) but the PvP was awful in the sense that NC-Soft did actively promote heavy zerging and even top notch PCs suffered heavy slow done when 500+ people showed up for a fortress raid (and no open world PvP action could ever be found anywhere else).
So I would prefer a graphics engine that produces ok results really really fast.
