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I guess I'm having the same problem as other people have had in the past. I have a core group of 3-4 players who make almost every session. And then I have a few other players that drop in on occasion and are 2 levels below everyone else.
Once my core gets to level 5 and 6, I'll be unable to run tier 5-9 scenarios without excluding the casuals. At level 7 they'll be forced to play down to subtier 5-6.
I wish there was a (good and fair) way to have a level 4 character play at subtier 5-6. It would make event planning a lot easier.
The only solutions I have think of are:
1) Have the core make new level 1 PCs to level up the casuals. Problem with this is I think the core want to continue on with their current PCs, and there's the possibility for long hiatus for casuals. In other words, it could be pointless.
2) Once the core gets to level 6 and 7, we play subtier 3-7 (or 1-7) exclusively, so everyone can play (except level 1-2 PCs).
3) Maybe recruit more non-casual players and make the casual players sit when we're at 6 players?
Any other ideas? Has anyone else been in this position?
Can anyone tell me what strategies worked and what didn't work?
I can see my core getting to level 7 (and maybe beyond, I think they're coming to Gencon with me this year) and we'll be stuck with 3 PCs at level 7/8 and everyone else at level 3-4. Doh! I don't really want that, since I feel the high levels are the most interesting, and they'd be forced to finish things off with only 3 PCs (which would be dangerous). Not only that, we'd exclude all other players for at least 6 months, which isn't going to happen.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Play a PFS-approved module, with all-new PCs. Have the players with 4th-level PCs apply the experience to those characters, raising them to 5th level. Have the players with higher-level PCs apply the experience to a new PC.
Also, have people with 7th-level PCs take Slow experience for a couple of levels.
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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I recommend to my players that when they reach the levels of the pregens, its time to build a second character, just in case. If you are scheduling and announcing scenarios in advance, some of this is eliminated. Alternatively, it might be time to recruit one of your players into GMing... and expand your group's base size. More players means more fun!
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I recommend to my players that when they reach the levels of the pregens, its time to build a second character, just in case. If you are scheduling and announcing scenarios in advance, some of this is eliminated. Alternatively, it might be time to recruit one of your players into GMing... and expand your group's base size. More players means more fun!
I agree, sounds like you should have a second GM/Table prepped, so if everyone shows up you should be able to have the second GM run a lower level table. This obviously depends on the sizes of your group as well. I always tell people they should crate a new level 1 when they reach 4, just in case there is an offering you want to partake in that is low level, you won't have to use a pregen or make one on the spot.
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Players with a stable of characters at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc., will find it easier to play in both home games and ones at events.
I have found from personal experience that you might show up to play at a convention with a character legal for the scenario but it does not fit well with the other character level and/or character mix at the table. Having a few choices will make for a more enjoyable experience.
The other consideration is that you might experience character death. What would your group do if one of your higher level characters died and had to start over at the beginning. You would then be tiered 1st, 4th and 7th and you issue is now worse.
Having multiple characters at various levels really is a good thing.
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The most important thing is that it is not your fault as the coordinator if the players do not want to compromise. Sure they may want to play the same character exclusively, most do. But since this is a cooperative game, every needs to be cooperative.
As some have said
-higher level characters can go the slow XP route so the lowers can catch up
-run some modules. the low levels can "level up" their PC and everyone will be playing/receiving appropriate challenges and rewards
-add a second table so the APL's are easier to accommodate
-the causal player are very casual, the higher lever players should have a secondary, back-up character to use. They will only need them occasionally when the others attend.
-Rotate GM's so you have more options for scheduling. They could apply the GM credits to another character so they have more player options.
-Consider changing the schedule. If you are running every week, eventually you will run out of scenarios. This is an issue many of us have had to deal with. I would recommend switching to an schedule where you alternate weekly between a mid/high tier mod and a low tier mod. That could make it easier for the players to schedule their attendance and know what PC to expect.
It is always good to add more players, so if you think they may be out there, run some impromptu gamedays with either First Steps or the Beginner Box. Focus the events on new players. Advertise at the bookstores, local schools, library, etc. Even a couple of new players could help resolve some of your issues.
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Thanks for your feedback.
Sorry, I should have mentioned that it's a home game, so there's no possibility of having a second table. Besides, I don't think accommodating more casual players really solves the problem.
I should have also mentioned that we're all (very busy) professionals and we play only once every 3-4 weeks. So that makes options like slow XP less viable, unless we want to wait until 2040 to reach level 12. :)
Initially, modules looked like a good idea, however I have some concerns:
1) My biggest concern is that it seems you get a very limited amount of gold per module. For example, in "Feast of Ravenmore" it says you get only 675 gold for subtier 1-2 but you gain 3 XP. That's really, really low, and it's a major PC nerf (you should gain 1500g instead). Am I reading the entry right?
2) A PC get only 4 PA with 3 XP. Slight nerf, but it's ok.
3) They won't be playing their own PCs. Modules are a nice "break", but we just finished "We Be Goblins", I don't think they're ready for another departure from their "mains".
4) It's hard for everyone to find the time to play 8 hours straight. In addition, the casual players can't commit to attending 2 sessions in a row (which is the problem anyway).
The other consideration is that you might experience character death. What would your group do if one of your higher level characters died and had to start over at the beginning. You would then be tiered 1st, 4th and 7th and you issue is now worse.
I don't think this is a factor. Once you get to 5th level, the party earns enough gold to pay for 2 raise deads even without external gold or PA. They're all friends, so they're not going to let one guy go down without the group going down (in which case they'd all start at level 1).
I do however agree that making new level 1 PCs is not a bad idea. I'll see what they think.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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1) My biggest concern is that it seems you get a very limited amount of gold per module. For example, in "Feast of Ravenmore" it says you get only 675 gold for subtier 1-2 but you gain 3 XP. That's really, really low, and it's a major PC nerf (you should gain 1500g instead). Am I reading the entry right?
Not quite. It's double that if the players are moving at normal experience progression.
3) They won't be playing their own PCs. Modules are a nice "break", but we just finished "We Be Goblins", I don't think they're ready for another departure from their "mains".
They can play versions of their main characters at different levels. Play Godsmoth Heresy with 1st-level versions of the PCs.
4) It's hard for everyone to find the time to play 8 hours straight. In addition, the casual players can't commit to attending 2 sessions in a row (which is the problem anyway).
It doesn't have to be 8 hours straight. See if you can work around the casual players' schedules, maybe?
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It sounds like you've got a solid group of people that really want to play and a second group that doesn't much care. Why are we making the people that care accommodate the people that don't?
I'd give pregens of the needed level to the casual players. As already stated, they're casual. They don't care what they're playing.
Or, since this is a home game and we don't have to worry about legal PFS characters, just level up the casual players to join the committed ones.
But, whatever you do, don't penalize your group of interested players.
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I do however agree that making new level 1 PCs is not a bad idea. I'll see what they think.
I think just having the 'regulars' make 1st level characters, then running first steps when only they are around.
Once you get to 2nd level, the season 0-1 modules are rather easy to 'play up' to the characters that are 3-4 tier.
Once the casual players 'catch up' have them make 1st level characters who are 'junior' to the '1st gen' of new characters.
Ever thought of explaining the problem to the casual players and scheduling a 'catch up' day, perhaps on a weekend, where you run 2-3 modules for them.
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It sounds like you've got a solid group of people that really want to play and a second group that doesn't much care. Why are we making the people that care accommodate the people that don't?
I see what you mean, however I'm still trying to increase the number of core players, which means having new players. And it's hard to tell if these players will be casual or committed.
It's easy to accommodate new players right now, it will be harder later. If I want to increase the core player base, some accommodation has to be done.
I'd give pregens of the needed level to the casual players. As already stated, they're casual. They don't care what they're playing.
I see what you mean and I think by the time they get to level 7/8, I'll know who is casual and is ok with playing a pregen. The super casuals will definitely be ok with it.
The Mike Brock suggestion of applying credit to level 1 PCs with upper tier scenarios would really help with this particular suggestion (when it's implemented).
Or, since this is a home game and we don't have to worry about legal PFS characters, just level up the casual players to join the committed ones.
I'd strongly prefer to keep everything PFS legal. Not only for myself, but I don't want confuse my players.
Thanks for your feedback. Keep it coming. Stories, experiences of epic failures or successes are good too.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Or, since this is a home game and we don't have to worry about legal PFS characters, just level up the casual players to join the committed ones.
What are the ramifications of playing a PFS OP PC in a group where you know that other characters aren't PFS legal? It's been my understanding that the session doesn't count for you, you can't get a Chronicle sheet, and you can never again play that scenario for credit. (A friend of mine down south has said that it keeps you from playing the PC, and while I can see his interpretation of the rules -- you've played the character outside of the OP environment -- I don't necessarily agree.)
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Or, since this is a home game and we don't have to worry about legal PFS characters, just level up the casual players to join the committed ones.
If you do this, you're not playing PFS anymore, you can't report the games, no one gets Chronicles, and the characters aren't legal at conventions or anywhere else. At that point, you're playing a home campaign, just using the PFS scenarios for adventures. If that's what you are doing, great - but I thought you were trying to play legal PFS, just in a home instead of a game store.
One reality of the PFS experience: no one can play just 1 person all the time unless their group always plays together and no one misses. One of the already-suggested ideas will get you past the level 5 jump, or you can use some of the newer Season 3 scenarios which are Tier 3-7 and which will get you through this as well.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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If you do this, you're not playing PFS anymore, you can't report the games, no one gets Chronicles, and the characters aren't legal at conventions or anywhere else. At that point, you're playing a home campaign, just using the PFS scenarios for adventures.
Scott, I understand about the non-reporting, and the absence of Chronicle sheets, but I'm not sure about why the legal PCs are no longer legal.
Let's say I play my PC up to 4th level. I play a game with Players A, B, and C, and find out during the last fight that Player C just made up a 4th-level PC. Obviously, I shouldn't get credit for the adventure or keep that Chronicle. But it's pretty harsh to say that I should never be able to use my PC again.
Even in the case that DMFTodd is talking about, there's nothing keeping me from cloning my legal Pathfinder Society character and playing it in that home campaign. (If the other dudes are creating characters out of whole cloth, then I should be able to make one out of crbon paper.) As long as (a) I keep the PCs legal explots seperate, and (b) never play (for a Chronicle) an adventure that was spoiled for me in a home campaign, everything should be copacetic, yes?
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If you do this, you're not playing PFS anymore, you can't report the games, no one gets Chronicles, and the characters aren't legal at conventions or anywhere else. At that point, you're playing a home campaign, just using the PFS scenarios for adventures.Scott, I understand about the non-reporting, and the absence of Chronicle sheets, but I'm not sure about why the legal PCs are no longer legal.
Let's say I play my PC up to 4th level. I play a game with Players A, B, and C, and find out during the last fight that Player C just made up a 4th-level PC. Obviously, I shouldn't get credit for the adventure or keep that Chronicle. But it's pretty harsh to say that I should never be able to use my PC again.
Even in the case that DMFTodd is talking about, there's nothing keeping me from cloning my legal Pathfinder Society character and playing it in that home campaign. (If the other dudes are creating characters out of whole cloth, then I should be able to make one out of crbon paper.) As long as (a) I keep the PCs legal explots seperate, and (b) never play (for a Chronicle) an adventure that was spoiled for me in a home campaign, everything should be copacetic, yes?
Actually, in your scenario, the one person just wouldn't get credit, as if they were playing a pre-gen (there is nothing different from a pre-gen and a made up character from a reporting standpoint) so why should the legal characters suffer due to ignorance?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Actually, in your scenario, the one person just wouldn't get credit, as if they were playing a pre-gen (there is nothing different from a pre-gen and a made up character from a reporting standpoint) so why should the legal characters suffer due to ignorance?
I didn't realize that playing groups, half with legal PFS characters, and half with made-up characters*, were legal. So, to answer Scott, there's nothing keeping the folks who are falling behind from artificially leveling up their PCs, so long as those particular players don't try running those characters at cons? The legal PCs get Chronicles, and the others don't?
* Yes, yes, they're all made-up characters. You know what I mean.
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I didn't realize that playing groups, half with legal PFS characters, and half with made-up characters*, were legal.
I don't think this is correct. Now, Todd has been a Venture-Captain longer than me, but I have always been under the impression that either a table is PFS-legal or it isn't; not legal = no PFS credit for anyone. Otherwise, your PFS-legal guys could coast through supported by a cast of non-legal PCs, which upsets the balance that PFS strives to preserve.
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I didn't realize that playing groups, half with legal PFS characters, and half with made-up characters*, were legal.
I don't think this is correct. Now, Todd has been a Venture-Captain longer than me, but I have always been under the impression that either a table is PFS-legal or it isn't; not legal = no PFS credit for anyone. Otherwise, your PFS-legal guys could coast through supported by a cast of non-legal PCs, which upsets the balance that PFS strives to preserve.
I agree with Scott. All characters at the table have to be PFS legal characters (including PFS pre-gens).
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When a player of a higher-than-first-level character gets a blank look on his face when asked for his Pathfinder ID number, it's not a good sign.
It's a sign that the GM or the coordinator hasn't informed everyone what the situation is. If you're playing PFS with folks, those folks need to know it, and know what that entails. If someone just shows up to play Pathfinder and no one tells them about PFS, how are they expected to figure it out?
GMs can reserve PFS numbers in advance from the website, and just hand a player a card if they don't already have a number. Even if the player doesn't register, you have a number to go with that game.
I have a "Cheat sheet" for new players that explains both the subtleties of Organized Play plus helps them choose factions (if they're starting in a regular scenario) that I'm happy to share with anyone who wants them. It gives new players at the table something to read while the GM preps the game, and answers most of the common questions.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I have a "Cheat sheet" for new players that explains both the subtleties of Organized Play plus helps them choose factions (if they're starting in a regular scenario) that I'm happy to share with anyone who wants them. It gives new players at the table something to read while the GM preps the game, and answers most of the common questions.
Ooooh, pick me! I want to read/use it for my new players.
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I have a "Cheat sheet" for new players that explains both the subtleties of Organized Play plus helps them choose factions (if they're starting in a regular scenario) that I'm happy to share with anyone who wants them. It gives new players at the table something to read while the GM preps the game, and answers most of the common questions.Ooooh, pick me! I want to read/use it for my new players.
+1 to that; I'd also love a copy of that when it's available.