Scatterguns

[posternutbag]

I love most of Ultimate Combat, despite its flaws. I love the Gunslinger, and I love the gun rules, except the scattergun rules.

The scattergun rules are simply wrong. It is mechanically easier to hit a bird in flight with a pistol than with a shotgun firing pellets, since scatterguns take a -2 to hit when firing pellets in a burst. As someone who has shot probably thousands of rounds both wingshooting and sporting clays, this is so wrong, I don't even know where to start.

Actually, I have an idea about where to start, but I wanted to make sure I was understanding the scattergun rules before I set about to re-write them.

When fired pellets, scatterguns target everything in the burst area, but take a -2 to hit on each target. This is correct, right? If so, this is where my modifications will begin.

Thanks.

[Maxximilius]

Pathfinder is a game, not a real-world simulations of how weapons and armors interact.

[Abraham spalding]

A couple of other thoughts:

The burst is a cone and as such is also a touch attack -- you're liable to get several birds in that cone if there are some there.

Also I think you are confused -- there isn't a scattergun any more. There is a blunderbust, Culverin and then there is the shotgun (well there is also the dragon pistol but that hardly counts in this case).

The Culverin has a range of 30 which means it will stay a touch attack further out than the pistol (though is likely to knock you on your butt).

The shotgun is a 30 foot cone and has touch attacks out to 100 feet.

[posternutbag]

Abraham, I am using "scattergun" as a class of firearm, specifically, a firearm that fires pellets in a cone, ie the blunderbuss and the shotgun.

My point is, it is easier to hit a single target using a pistol than with a gun with the scatter quality that is firing pellets (perhaps I should have phased it like that from the start. I know scattergun was an earlier weapon).

No weapons system is perfect, I get that. But if a rule makes a weapon or item worse at what it is supposed to do, then that is a problem that needs to be addressed. It is true that a gun with the scatter quality, when loaded with pellets, has a chance to hit more than one opponent within the burst, but it is actually harder to hit an individual opponent within that burst, due to the -2 to attack. That is my problem with firearms with the scatter weapon quality that are firing pellets.

[Maxximilius]

Not at all. If you want to attack a single creature with a firearm, you can do it even with a blunderbuss or a dragon pistol, by simply not doing a scatter attack. You attack only one creature without suffering additional penalties. There is also the dragon breath cartridge that does a scatter attack as a real elemental cone, allowing for a reflex save instead of needing you to hit AC.

[kyrt-ryder]

I'll admit when the gun rules were being debated during the playtest (even though we were explicitly told to ignore them somehow >.<) I was expecting 'scatterguns' to be more of a reflex save, DC = 10+1/2 BAB+dex or similar.

[posternutbag]

Let me try to put this another way then. It should be easier, not harder, to hit a close opponent with pellets/shot. There are two reasons wingshooters use shot shot/pellets. Occassionally you get a two-fer, but mostly, its much easier to hit something in flight with shot than with a single round, yet the rules for Pathfinder firearms model the exact opposite.

[Maxximilius]

... which brings me back to my two previous answers.
Pathfinder isn't a reality simulator, yet when it comes to firearm, people seem to wish the game should be one. If you believe these rules are a problem, then you should also fix the crossbow, make so that a rapier can't deal damage to an armored+high natural armor creature, etc.

[Abraham spalding]

Maxximilius wrote:

rapier can't deal damage to an armored+high natural armor creature

Why? A rapier does fine at piercing things, provided you aren't dealing with fully articulated clockwork like armor.

I mean the same could be said of the long sword at the point that a rapier can't deal with armored/ high natural armor creatures.

[posternutbag]

I agree with you Maxx, there are problems with the combat system, the difference, IMO, is that most of the problems you bring up are legacy problems, some existing since AD&D.

With firearms, the developers had/have a chance to build something new. The idea that problems in one area excuse problems in another is something I just don't agree with, hence my point(s).

I actually have an idea about how to fix this, but that would be better left to a new thread in the homebrew sub-form.

Actually, the thrust is the most effective strike against armor like full-plate (or even, perhaps especially, armor like chain). There was actually a sword called an estoc; it was sort of a thrusting longsword (bastard sword in D&D/Pathfinder terms) that had a blunt edge but a tappered point, and it was used to half-sword.

[Abraham spalding]

My only problem with the scatter quality rules right now is the "you hit everything in a cone this big" bs.

I mean really? A 30 foot cone with a shotgun? Everything in that area?

It's like no one had ever seen a shotgun shot before.

I could believe it if it was, "Roll to hit your primary target with a +2 to hit, anyone adjacent to the target or on the line of effect between you and the target are also attacked but with a -2 to the attack roll."

[Maxximilius]

Abraham spalding wrote:

I mean the same could be said of the long sword at the point that a rapier can't deal with armored/ high natural armor creatures.

That's the point exactly. Fantasy game, fantasy mechanics.

You'll not make me believe a +1 medium rapier should be able to damage a full-plate giant with Barkskin on or even a skeleton. While the game does good at simulating difficulty to do so, it is still possible.

@posternutbag: Also, the sword you are talking about is probably a reitschwert, basically the missing link between the long sword and the rapier.

[Abraham spalding]

The Estoc was basically a sword that was a foot lance. Basically a very stiff rapier with a triangular blade, designed to pierce mail and plate and leave very nasty bleeding wounds.

I've heard it called a Tuck before but I don't know the accuracy of that.

[Klebert L. Hall]

Yeah, I hate the 90 degree shotgun cone area of effect too. I plan on just never using it. If they had to use an existing area effect type, Line would have been better.
-Kle.