We've talked around and around about the words, but now I want to hear a bit about the art. I'm not interested in critiques, we have numerous very talented artists working on this line and artistic opinions are so subjective that "I loved this, I hated this" criticisms provide us with little real data (aside from an idea of how much you were or weren't hugged as a child). What I want to know is more about implementation.
Do you think the Player Companions have enough art?
The art typically tries to represent a type of character relevant to the words on the page - maybe of the same religion, using a described feat or spell, of the presented prestige class. How's that sit with you? Would you rather see something else?
How do you feel about reused art? How do you feel about reused art when we're just talking about symbols, relevant runes, flags, and the like?
Say we have a section about new magic items. Do you want to see it illustrated with pictures of two or three of those items, or by a cool character wielding one or two of those items?
Can you think of a way the art might better support the content, or vice versa?
Again, this isn't about artistic quality, merit, or any of that eye of the beholder stuff, it's about art as part of the product's content. What might make it more useful to you or engaging to your players?
First, thanks as always for asking for feedback from the community.
Regarding items:
I often copy/paste the art from the books or pdf's to create player handouts. I would much rather have the item pictured as a standalone piece as opposed to being wielded or used by a character. It is just more useful to me that way.
I am not a fan of reused art, but I understand the financial reasons, but crops are not bad. I would rather have additional word content than an entire quarter or half page of art that appeared in an earlier book.
Spell effect art is always cool as it gives the GM an accurate way to show the players how an effect may look.
I am not a fan of reused art, but I understand the financial reasons, but crops are not bad. I would rather have additional word content than an entire quarter or half page of art that appeared in an earlier book.
Before anything goes much farther, I'm not seriously interested in reusing illustrations from book to book. It looks cheap, and we've got big enough budgets for these books to do entirely new things. (The only place we really do that is to a limited degree in our hardcovers, and that's for reasons beyond the scope of this discussion.) So never expect to see like, the Carrion King from Legacy of Fire showing back up just to illustrate "Joe-Gnoll" in a hypothetical Gnolls of Golarion book. More so, I'm talking repurposed/retagged maps, icons, symbols, flags, etc. But how would you feel about, if we had a quote from an in-world character that we have a piece of art for like a small head shot of him? Maybe like something the size of the headshots in Inner Sea Magic - which now that I mention it reused quite a few pieces of art.
So, again, I'm not proposing the reuse of whole body shots or half-pagers that you've seen elsewhere. I'm more talking about reusing pertinent, utility pieces at a small scale as an addition to entirely new illustrations in an amount you're used to seeing already. Not as a replacement for new art.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Little head shot Icons for in-character narrators for the books would be great when they're speaking/being quoted, especially if there's multiple point of view characters in a single book (which you'd ideally want to do so you could present a broader view of the topic than just one person's viewpoints.)
What would be especially cool is if a stable of iconic narrators were developed (different from any of the class iconics) so that over time, the reader could grow to know them and how to interperet their views whenever they saw their icon/head shots alongside a quote of theirs. Such a group of standard/iconic narrators wouldn't necessarily be the only ones - you'd probably also want some that have closer ties to the subject at hand - like a native of Irrisen for a hypothetical Irrisen player's companion.
If it has something to do with the words on the page, I don't mind reusing some art. Just don't do what WOTC did. I can't count the number of times they threw in that little black and white demon, dragon, or skull. It looked like they ran out of the art budget and fell back on clipart to keep the pages from turning into walls of text.
What would be especially cool is if a stable of iconic narrators were developed (different from any of the class iconics) so that over time, the reader could grow to know them and how to interperet their views whenever they saw their icon/head shots alongside a quote of theirs.
Completely agree with this idea.
Look to include art that breathes life into the subject that's being discussed. But I agree with the earlier poster about always making sure you include some "utility art" that GMs can hold up to show their players without giving away anything spoiler-ish. Other than that, use the art to give clear, inspiring examples of what the sourcebook is exploring. It's hard to be more specific than that, though.
I play online, using D20Pro, which allows for a graphically-intensive game presentation. Suffice to say, artwork for creatures, characters, and items are all of high importance to me. In fact, Paizo's high standards when it comes to color art (and the ease of use through PDFs) is a big factor in what draws me in. I'm generally quite happy with the amount of art we're getting now, but I'd never say "no" to more.
I'm not proposing the reuse of whole body shots or half-pagers that you've seen elsewhere. I'm more talking about reusing pertinent, utility pieces at a small scale as an addition to entirely new illustrations in an amount you're used to seeing already. Not as a replacement for new art.
Yes, reused art of this sort will be welcome more often than not, since we won't have to go elsewhere for a visual reference reminder.
For a section about new magic items, I'd rather just see the item unless there's something unusual or especially striking about how it would be used. I know how a wand is wielded, I don't need to see a character doing it. (Okay, bad example, I also know what a wand looks like, so I don't need an illo of that to begin with.)
Where locales or significant structures are concerned, a "postcard" or "vacation snapshot" type illustration goes a long way to be helpful and engaging. 2D birds eye view grid maps only go so far, as do some examples of some Magnimaran architecture -- very lovely artwork, but I can't tell what buildings are represented. It's okay to use that to give impressions of the city overall, but I'd also like to see postcards of buildings the PCs are almost certain to interact with: in Sandpoint, the Cathedral, Theatre and Garrison for example.
Wait, did I stray past the "Companions" scope of the thread?
On magic items I think if it is armor maybe it should be a picture of it on a character to see how the armor looks on a person. Items that are not worn or just a hat do not need to be on a person is how I view it. wands rods not so much and not really for wonderous items. Definetly just the potion not one of someone drinking a potion or elixir.
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What would be especially cool is if a stable of iconic narrators were developed (different from any of the class iconics) so that over time, the reader could grow to know them and how to interperet their views whenever they saw their icon/head shots alongside a quote of theirs. Such a group of standard/iconic narrators wouldn't necessarily be the only ones - you'd probably also want some that have closer ties to the subject at hand - like a native of Irrisen for a hypothetical Irrisen player's companion.
+1 to this, i think it would help to have some not all the time but some stuff told IC from a stable of NPC's/iconics.
Now to reply to the OP's questions.
Do you think the Player Companions have enough art?
Never really thought about it, I wouldn't want less art. Not sure I would want more at the cost of content aka text removed to make room.
The art typically tries to represent a type of character relevant to the words on the page - maybe of the same religion, using a described feat or spell, of the presented prestige class. How's that sit with you? Would you rather see something else?
I like that the art matches the text of what is being talked about. To me it helps my imagination as well to see art along with stuff.
How do you feel about reused art? How do you feel about reused art when we're just talking about symbols, relevant runes, flags, and the like?
I wouldn't mind it with small stuff. I mean really how many different flags of Varisia does one need? So small stuff like that I wouldn't mind reused art. Especially if that would allow for bigger budgets on the rest of the art. :)
Say we have a section about new magic items. Do you want to see it illustrated with pictures of two or three of those items, or by a cool character wielding one or two of those items?
I am torn, on one hand it is nice to see the object alone. On the other complete art in action is always nice. But I think i would rather have a few smaller pics of the items over one bigger piece of a person. Even though I love the later, I think the former is more useful.
Can you think of a way the art might better support the content, or vice versa?
Just make sure the art matches the text really well. It bugs me when i see something like one Hellknight and then another looks totally different. Or two elves that look very different. Not saying you have done it but just saying make sure the art matches existing canon and make the art match the text. If it is text about Ulfen I expect to see a Viking type character.
Again, this isn't about artistic quality, merit, or any of that eye of the beholder stuff, it's about art as part of the product's content. What might make it more useful to you or engaging to your players?
For most stuff like adventures especially, having art of NPC's to use as a printed hand out, or art of a spooky Mansion ala Foxglove manor in RotRL to show players would help. That would help the players I think and the GM. For me as a GM, art of key battles or rooms with the iconics in it would be nice so I can explain things better as well and maybe inspire me with idea's as a GM.
What would be especially cool is if a stable of iconic narrators were developed (different from any of the class iconics) so that over time, the reader could grow to know them and how to interperet their views whenever they saw their icon/head shots alongside a quote of theirs.Completely agree with this idea.
As do I. This is a technique that James Sutter used to tremendous effect in City of Strangers with Gav Nahli (sp?) at the start of each of the chapters. I was so inspired by his words, that I made Gav an NPC guide for my players while they were in Kaer Maga.
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Do you think the Player Companions have enough art?
I think my answer to this various from book to book. The inner sea primer didn't have enough art, it seemed very much "attack of the walls of text" when I first opened it up. As a very visual learner, I appricieate the art better (I also memorize things in relation to the art,so I might not know when something happens but can tell you 'its in the book with the succubus on the cover, about half way through, the page with Azmodeus holding the contract')
The art typically tries to represent a type of character relevant to the words on the page - maybe of the same religion, using a described feat or spell, of the presented prestige class. How's that sit with you? Would you rather see something else?
If it is in a part about people, I would perfer just the person to an action shot. an example: in the Andoran Spirit of Liberty book; the halfling paladin picture. It shows me much more detail about the character than a fight scene would have.
How do you feel about reused art? How do you feel about reused art when we're just talking about symbols, relevant runes, flags, and the like?
I think reused art in this way is ok, but I would say to try to space out the original use from the reuse - like 4-6 months. I would also perfer it to be not the only art on the two pages
Say we have a section about new magic items. Do you want to see it illustrated with pictures of two or three of those items, or by a cool character wielding one or two of those items?
I would prefer a close up of the item, or a character holding an item out over action scenes. I prefer the Orcs pf Golarion flags to the Sargava companion flags
Can you think of a way the art might better support the content, or vice versa?
Again, this isn't about artistic quality, merit, or any of that eye of the beholder stuff, it's about art as part of the product's content. What might make it more useful to you or engaging to your players?
The one time that I do like action scenes are for locations that aren't cities (like the osirion cover type stuff) where there isn't a vast layer of details for a background. (I have no idea if that made sense, so I'll try it this way, if your spotlighting one building with a desert/jungle behind it I'm more amiable to an action scene than the shots of Absalom that show the style of the city. (there are always exceptions such as the riddleport streets picture)
What would be especially cool is if a stable of iconic narrators were developed
Yes!
(different from any of the class iconics)
Aww. Here I was looking forward to Werebats of Golarion: (as narrated by Merisiel Silvari)
This is a technique that James Sutter used to tremendous effect in City of Strangers with Gav Nahli
I keep promising myself I'll pick this up. Why do I still not have it? D:
I'm always in the minority when it comes up, but since you asked about art - id prefer to have an extra page of information in place of the repeat of the cover picture on the back page.
It's nice seeing an "uncluttered" version, but not as nice as a whole page of additional information would be.
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As far as I can discern, there are two reasons for art in an RPG book:
1. Demonstrative: Art saves a lot of text that describes a person / object / monster when you can just show it. This becomes an aid to imagination, as well as saving time at the table. The classic example here is the Bestiary, where you can point at the monster and say 'it looks like this!'
2. Aesthetic: This is a piece of art that exists only for the 'wow' factor, which works to sell you on why you should buy the book on the initial flip-through. You see the art and say, 'hot damn! I want my roleplaying games to look like that!' They serve a secondary purpose of breaking up large blocks of text, which can see dry and boring without some visual stimuli. This stuff is neat, but ultimately useless. Most book covers serve this function, and another example would be the iconics.
I believe that demostrative art can often fulfill the aesthetic role, and would personally rather see illustrations that serve both purposes. While, say, the cover to Faiths of Corruption is sinister, it simply fills space. If, on the other hand, it depicted a sinister ritual of Zon-Kuthon, I can work that into my game. The players burst into the horrible temple and they see this ritual in particular.
I would like to see that each piece is evaluated on the basis of, "What information does this illustration convey? What utility will it have at the table?" If there isn't an answer beyond, "this is frickin' sweet!", I'd rather see it cut.
Mind you, I still want art that is frickin' sweet, but it should have a demonstrative purpose, such as:
* Clothing style of the region, race, religion, etc.
* Conveys the architectural style of a city, state, or building.
* Displays a specific object, monster, or spell effect.
In regards to magic objects in specific, the object itself should, in my opinion, be displayed. The image may be less dynamic than seeing Merisiel employing it, but the utility of the image is drastically improved.
Thanks again for seeking our feedback, Wes!
Do you think the Player Companions have enough art?
Heck, no. When talking about a campaign world that players are likely to know far less than the GM (and have done far less reading), visuals are very important - more so than words. AFAIC, there isn't even remotely enough art in Player's Companions - at least, enough art that illustrates the subject.
The art typically tries to represent a type of character relevant to the words on the page - maybe of the same religion, using a described feat or spell, of the presented prestige class. How's that sit with you? Would you rather see something else?
Yes. My players - especially as time goes on - have diminishing interest in "character" art. They've seen character art a gazillion times before, and such art is pretty valueless to them. It certainly doesn't get them attached to the setting in any way.
There needs to be far more location art. Not action pieces with characters, but location art. Consider the first piece of art in Dwarves of Golarion (a dwarven redoubt of some kind) - that's the type of art that gets my players to better understand and visualize/imagine the world they're playing in. WAY more of that would have been very helpful to my players. A pic of 'yet another' dwarf warrior or cleric does zilch for them. If the subject is specifically about styles of clothing - and the character art focuses specifically on that - then they're okay with it, but otherwise...
When I describe a setting or campaign to them, I use location art exclusively, never character art, because they find the former far more useful and inspiring - and it has been long-since proven (for us) to successfully get players to better understand the world, setting, and campaign they're playing in.
How do you feel about reused art? How do you feel about reused art when we're just talking about symbols, relevant runes, flags, and the like?
Not so good, obviously, but you talk about that later. Things like symbols and heraldry re-used (if it's from a book that players are less likely to see) are fine. Great, even. Seeing heraldry and the like is appreciated by my players.
Say we have a section about new magic items. Do you want to see it illustrated with pictures of two or three of those items, or by a cool character wielding one or two of those items?
A pic of a magic item (or character using it)? My players would have zero interest in that, unless the magic item was so unique and weird-looking that it needed a picture to adequately describe it.
Can you think of a way the art might better support the content, or vice versa?
Yes - see above. Just showing pictures of characters is a snooze-fest for my players, if the intent is to help them better understand the campaign world they're playing in.
But how would you feel about, if we had a quote from an in-world character that we have a piece of art for like a small head shot of him? Maybe like something the size of the headshots in Inner Sea Magic - which now that I mention it reused quite a few pieces of art.
My players would find that useless and wouldn't care about such a thing at all. "Just some random dude - now, where's the helpful stuff?"
(All my comments are from a player's perspective, not necessarily a GM.)
Do you think the Player Companions have enough art?
They have enough. I've never thought "hey, wish there was more artwork here," so it can't be lacking. More probably wouldn't hurt, but too much more and we're losing content, which is bad.
The art typically tries to represent a type of character relevant to the words on the page - maybe of the same religion, using a described feat or spell, of the presented prestige class. How's that sit with you? Would you rather see something else?
What I'd like is for the artwork to be captioned. While someone must think all of the art is obvious, I find some of it to be a mystery. Who is that person? What are they holding? What are they doing? Many of the WoTC books did this with a caption like "Harfinius uses swarm skin to survey the enemy encampment" or something similar.
How do you feel about reused art? How do you feel about reused art when we're just talking about symbols, relevant runes, flags, and the like?
Reused art is okay by me, but only if it's meant to be reused. Resuing art that originally depicted a unique event or character is less than optimal.
Say we have a section about new magic items. Do you want to see it illustrated with pictures of two or three of those items, or by a cool character wielding one or two of those items?
In general, I'd rather see more pictures of individual items. I'm no equipment or arms expert, and some of this stuff I have no idea what it looks like. Like the oriental armors, for example, or many of the pole arms, or even different ship types. Heck, I don't even know what a falchion or khopesh looks like, and I still know people that are confused by the various types of flails, morning stars, and maces. Illustrations are good.
Can you think of a way the art might better support the content, or vice versa?
See above about equipment. Also art for locations is a very good thing, as is art for significant unique items and all creatures (though there's no concerns there - every creature these days gets an illustration). Action shots are good for chapter headings, but I would prefer that the in-chapter artwork serve a purpose and illustrate something specific.
Again, this isn't about artistic quality, merit, or any of that eye of the beholder stuff, it's about art as part of the product's content. What might make it more useful to you or engaging to your players?
I'll second the comment that non-spoiler artwork is great. Also, multiple images of common creatures/things/items is very handy. I get tired of using the same image for things.
I'd also love for some of the artwork from the item cards to be available in digital format; it'd be a tremendous resource when preparing gaming materials.
*** And now for an important plea ***
Finally, and I don't know how to accomplish this, but please please please please can someone find a way for a NON-mac user to extract images from PDFs without having to spend significant time per image cleaning it up due to the alpha channel issues?
Whenever I'm using artwork to illustrate unique advanced creatures (which is always, due to the nature of my campaign), I spend significant time cleaning up the images. This is not a problem with any PDFs other than the ones I have from Paizo, and over and over I hear "I just do xyz on my Mac," which is, of course, of no use to me.
It would save me significant prep time if I were able to access the images without having to spend 10-30 minutes in paint or Gimp (depending on how good I want the final product) per image in order to clean it up.
It's not because I'm not a techy guy. I am. I have tried every suggestion people have offered, and have never been able to retrieve images without them being impaired.
Finally, and I don't know how to accomplish this, but please please please please can someone find a way for a NON-mac user to extract images from PDFs without having to spend significant time per image cleaning it up due to the alpha channel issues?
Is that where the background comes out all black on certain pictures (usually those embedded in pages with text surrounding it)? If so, then yeah - that's super annoying.
If not, then... nevermind!
This is a technique that James Sutter used to tremendous effect in City of Strangers with Gav Nahli
Thanks! And yeah, I love subtly inserting new characters into the world via the quotes in our books. It doesn't happen all the time, but there are several who've made multiple appearances in different books, and I always wonder if folks notice. Some of them even reference each other. :)
I keep promising myself I'll pick this up. Why do I still not have it? D:
GOOD QUESTION. Now imagine I'm looking at you like this.
:D
Finally, and I don't know how to accomplish this, but please please please please can someone find a way for a NON-mac user to extract images from PDFs without having to spend significant time per image cleaning it up due to the alpha channel issues?Is that where the background comes out all black on certain pictures (usually those embedded in pages with text surrounding it)? If so, then yeah - that's super annoying.
If not, then... nevermind!
Yes, that is exactly the issue I'm talking about.
Apparently all of the Paizo userfolk are Mac users, and this is trivial on Macs, but apparently because of how this is implemented, impossible on PCs. Or something. In any event, a solution would be really, really nice and would save me a *lot* of time.
Flag/headshot art reuse is fine.
I like three kinds of art.
1. Art which illustrates something otherwise hard to picture exactly - like a country's flag.
2. Art which I'd use as a player handout or NPC illustration. The "straight up" NPCs illustrations so common in Paizo works are great.
3. Art depicting a setting or similar that the PCs will interact with a lot. The pics of Riddleport from afar are great; the one of the prow of the Teeth of Araska was helpful (as my PCs took the ship, though I wish it had shown more of the ship).
Art that's "action shots" and whatnot are not useful to me. I don't mind that on the cover, but then that's about it.
So like in Faiths of Corruption, let's go through the utility of the art.
Cover action shot - great.
Deity symbols - fine (though they seem a little more detailed than the average wooden/silver holy symbol; I'd almost like to see the more common stylized version).
Shot of the Boner Squad on p.2 - Hmmm. This is the kind of art that it's hard for me to use as a player handout, though I might chop it up into 3 and I like seeing the bone tower.
Most of the rest of the art is serviceable holy symbols and NPCs suitable for use on standups.
I feel like it could have used more art especially on p 16-21 to depict the various deities (and what is that generic diabolism icon? For a generic diabolist? wtf?)
I don't know how I'd every use the "Kyra being transformed" art, and some of the latter NPCs could use a caption; "Paladin of Rovagug."
Let's do Humans of Golarion too.
Cover action shot - great.
Reused bikini human - not helpful; well, maybe I can use it as a npc standup for a hooker or something.
Action shot on p.2 - that's the kind of art that I just can't use for anything. No context where I'd show it to a player. It has humans in it, but otherwise doesn't demonstrate anything important from the book.
Fencer chick - uyseful as standup
Map on p. 7 - very helpful in illustrating a complex concept! Could use a little Tufte-ification to reflect time in the lines perhaps.
Race headshots - good, they illustrate what people look like; more would be better to see how typical/atypical they are (do ALL taldans look like big ol' ponces, or just him?).
Weapons - weapons always need pics. It would be better to have B&W line art rather than nothing.
And more solo NPCs, great, add 'em to my NPC rosters and clip their faces for Hero Lab.
So in general good, actionable, could be more. It's not the high quality art of the main lines but that's OK, gotta save $$ somewhere, and Reynolds' gotta sleep.