One of the goals of the Player Companions has always been to create a product that you as a GM can just toss at player with a particular character concept and say "Go!" Got an elf? Check out this elf book, it's filled with ideas to make your character a cool elf. Got a faithful character? Check out this deities book for details on how to make a cool religious character. And so on.
As much as these are meant to be chapbooks, exploring a single topic, we also want them to engage players and get them excited to play the type of character presented within. So maybe occasionally the above idea works in reverse and a player picks up the book on Andoran and decides she needs to play a character from there.
All that's the goal. I know we've had some successes. I know we've had some failures.
The question, though, is what have you seen that works? Have you had any experience where things played out exactly as described here? And if so, what did the trick? And if not, what sort of content do you think would better engage your players?
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I'd say it's a variety of things:
1) New Options - From feats to spells to archetypes to prestige classes. The crunch that immediately causes a player to say, "Oooh, I want to run a character who can do that...or be that." It still needs to be flavorful material, though, and relevant to the topic at hand. This stuff needs to bring that corner of Golarion or that particular species, faith, or organization to life for the players. That's what immediately inspires them, because it gets their character-creation juices flowing. Consequently, this also works for the GMs as it gives them new material to incorporate into NPCs.
2) Roleplay Inspiration - This is where you could probably benefit from some in-character examples of what it's like to be a certain type of character as presented within each topic explored by a Player's Companion. Show, don't tell. Give an example with in-character dialogue, a sample NPC who might serve as a mentor for a PC during their early adventuring career, and...generally...just demonstrate what that archetype, prestige class, race, faith, etc. would be like from a flavor-filled roleplay perspective. It gives both players and GMs something to hang their hat on when they're gathered at the table as they try to properly portray some concept they have in mind. Or, better yet, it helps inspire them to better understand what it means to play a particular concept altogether.
3) A Picture's Worth A Thousand Words - Quite honestly, there's a significant number of players who immediately get drawn in by superior art. The kind that gives them a blood-pumping action scene or demonstration of the power a certain type of character, race, faith, etc. can wield in a specific region or place set in Golarion. You fill a Player's Companion with the best possible depictions of what the words themselves inspire and you'll hook (and engage) the players that much more.
4) Innovate - Introduce new ways of looking at things. Turn some concept on its ear. Shake up the players so they realize how cool it might be to play something a little out of the norm (like tieflings, aasimar, orcs, or goblins). Not crazy out of the norm. But cool. Maybe its a non-traditional race? Maybe it's a new use for a skill, feat, or combat maneuver? Maybe it's a new prestige class or archetype to give them a whole new imagining for a core or base class? This is where you make the series worth the price of admission. It needs to add value beyond what you'd simply get from the CRB or APG by putting things together for the players or going beyond the concepts those books introduced.
5) Widen the In-World Information - This is true for both the GM- and player-centric sourcebooks. Rather than just repeat information (some of which will certainly be necessary to bring both GM and player up to speed on the topic at hand), try your best to make sure there's something new revealed about the region of Golarion, race, organization, or faith you're describing in each of the books. Obviously, the player's book shouldn't include anything spoiler-ific. But, it can still include some new perspective that might not show up in the GM-only book. Maybe it's just an idea or a hint. For every door you close by answering a question about your world, open two more for the readers to ponder and take in whatever direction they want.
If you ring these five things as hard as you can in every sourcebook, and you'll create a winning product time and again (provided, of course, the subject matter itself is of interest to a significant enough part of the consumer base).
My nickel's worth,
--Neil
By far the most successful part of the books for my groups are the paladin codes, nothing else come remotely close to that.
The only other players companion that really got a good looking was "Humans of Golarion" especially the section of the evolution of the human races and how they spread across the continents.
I agree with both of these points...
By far the most successful part of the books for my groups are the paladin codes, nothing else come remotely close to that.
To me, this was something new to provide good roleplay inspiration (#2, above) for paladins...
The only other players companion that really got a good looking was "Humans of Golarion" especially the section of the evolution of the human races and how they spread across the continents.
And this is an example of widening the in-world information (#5, above) where it helps the GM and players better understand the history behind the human races of Golarion.
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I'd say it's a variety of things:
1) New Options - From feats to spells to archetypes to prestige classes. The crunch that immediately causes a player to say, "Oooh, I want to run a character who can do that...or be that." It still needs to be flavorful material, though, and relevant to the topic at hand. This stuff needs to bring that corner of Golarion or that particular species, faith, or organization to life for the players. That's what immediately inspires them, because it gets their character-creation juices flowing. Consequently, this also works for the GMs as it gives them new material to incorporate into NPCs.
2) Roleplay Inspiration - This is where you could probably benefit from some in-character examples of what it's like to be a certain type of character as presented within each topic explored by a Player's Companion. Show, don't tell. Give an example with in-character dialogue, a sample NPC who might serve as a mentor for a PC during their early adventuring career, and...generally...just demonstrate what that archetype, prestige class, race, faith, etc. would be like from a flavor-filled roleplay perspective. It gives both players and GMs something to hang their hat on when they're gathered at the table as they try to properly portray some concept they have in mind. Or, better yet, it helps inspire them to better understand what it means to play a particular concept altogether.
3) A Picture's Worth A Thousand Words - Quite honestly, there's a significant number of players who immediately get drawn in by superior art. The kind that gives them a blood-pumping action scene or demonstration of the power a certain type of character, race, faith, etc. can wield in a specific region or place set in Golarion. You fill a Player's Companion with the best possible depictions of what the words themselves inspire and you'll hook (and engage) the players that much more.
4) Innovate - Introduce new ways of looking at things. Turn some concept on its ear. Shake up the players so they realize how cool it might be to play something a little out of the norm (like tieflings, aasimar, orcs, or goblins). Not crazy out of the norm. But cool. Maybe its a non-traditional race? Maybe it's a new use for a skill, feat, or combat maneuver? Maybe it's a new prestige class or archetype to give them a whole new imagining for a core or base class? This is where you make the series worth the price of admission. It needs to add value beyond what you'd simply get from the CRB or APG by putting things together for the players or going beyond the concepts those books introduced.
5) Widen the In-World Information - This is true for both the GM- and player-centric sourcebooks. Rather than just repeat information (some of which will certainly be necessary to bring both GM and player up to speed on the topic at hand), try your best to make sure there's something new revealed about the region of Golarion, race, organization, or faith you're describing in each of the books. Obviously, the player's book shouldn't include anything spoiler-ific. But, it can still include some new perspective that might not show up in the GM-only book. Maybe it's just an idea or a hint. For every door you close by answering a question about your world, open two more for the readers to ponder and take in whatever direction they want.
If you ring these five things as hard as you can in every sourcebook, and you'll create a winning product time and again (provided, of course, the subject matter itself is of interest to a significant enough part of the consumer base).
My nickel's worth,
--Neil
I will just say... that. it pretty well covers my thoughts exactly and then some.
...I'd say it's a variety of things:
1) New Options - From feats to spells to archetypes to prestige classes. The crunch that immediately causes a player to say, "Oooh, I want to run a character who can do that...or be that." It still needs to be flavorful material, though, and relevant to the topic at hand. This stuff needs to bring that corner of Golarion or that particular species, faith, or organization to life for the players. That's what immediately inspires them, because it gets their character-creation juices flowing. Consequently, this also works for the GMs as it gives them new material to incorporate into NPCs.
2) Roleplay Inspiration - This is where you could probably benefit from some in-character examples of what it's like to be a certain type of character as presented within each topic explored by a Player's Companion. Show, don't tell. Give an example with in-character dialogue, a sample NPC who might serve as a mentor for a PC during their early adventuring career, and...generally...just demonstrate what that archetype, prestige class, race, faith, etc. would be like from a flavor-filled roleplay perspective. It gives both players and GMs something to hang their hat on when they're gathered at the table as they try to properly portray some concept they have in mind. Or, better yet, it helps inspire them to better understand what it means to play a particular concept altogether.
3) A Picture's Worth A Thousand Words - Quite honestly, there's a significant number of players who immediately get drawn in by superior art. The kind that gives them a blood-pumping action scene or demonstration of the power a certain type of character, race, faith, etc. can wield in a specific region or place set in Golarion. You fill a Player's Companion with the best possible depictions of what the words themselves inspire and you'll hook (and engage) the players that much more.
4) Innovate - Introduce new ways of looking at things.
This is about four threads worth of wisdom packed into one post here. One big +1, especially on the "Inspiration" department.
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Great post, Neil!
1) New Options
This is right on. I never seriously considered an Osirioni character until I saw the Living Monolith. The art, concept, and thematically-appropriate rules not only sold me on the prestige class, but on any adventurer coming from that nation.
5) Widen the In-World Information
Although you've heard this many times before, Humans of Golarion is where the train jumped the tracks. While the art depicting cultural migration patterns was nearly worth the price of admission, the rest of the book felt like it was little more than a reprint. The first section that comes to mind is the section on the Shory. While I don't have the book on hand, the only new information provided was that 'their clay pottery can still be found shattered as if fallen from a great height.'
As a GM who wants to put together an adventure where the players seek out the ruins of an ancient Shory city, this is a nice, flavorful bit. I can see shady, mustachioed merchants hawking fragments of 'ancient pottery' that may have some clues inscribed on it. I commend Brandon Hodge for the idea, but as a GM interested in Shory culture and society, I read that section and thought, "That's it?"
As a player? Here's what I imagine your average player is going to think when they read this section:
Wow. Pottery.
... And that's when they're going to close this book and leave it on the shelf.
By far the most successful part of the books for my groups are the paladin codes, nothing else come remotely close to that.
The only other players companion that really got a good looking was "Humans of Golarion" especially the section of the evolution of the human races and how they spread across the continents.
These two examples highlight a point that I made in another, related thread. Not only are they easily applicable to players who are interested in those subjects (especially the Paladin codes), but they are straightforward and easy to read. The migration patterns have attractive art that informs and inspires, and the paladin codes are quick, clean bullet points that convey a huge amount of flavor in very short bursts of text. This makes them perfect for players, who are more likely to browse through a book like a magazine then digest the entire text in a single read-through.
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For the greatest part, my players want new crunch: archetypes, traits, prestige classes and items that are specific to certain race or nation. They especially want to see certain fantasy cliches given a new life: Elven Archer or Two Weapon Wielder, Elven High Mage or Ranger; Dwarven Battlerager or Battlepriest. They don't want those to be more powerful, but different and special. They are aware that they can create those stereotypes by themselves with existing rules, but they don't want to. They want official archetypes and prestige classes.
New items are also important to them. Stuff along the lines of cloak and boots of elvenkind.
Also, they are clamoring for race-specific pets: Drow spiders, dwarf hounds, stuff like that. One of them wanted to play half-troll just so that he could have troll hound animal companion.
Neil covered it very well, though for my players there's an exception: new [b[mechanical[/b] options are off-putting for most of them because they find the choices of feats / spells / archetypes / prestige classes overwhelming.
What engages my players is immersion in the specific campaign world: refering to Common as Taldane is a very small way of doing that, but even that much helps. Regional or cultural traits are still mechanical options, but at least they have the colorful candy coating of Golarion. Perhaps some [more?] archetypes can be done this way as well, tying them to specific cultures.
Crunch is important, but the inspiration comes from the rest. A good Player Companion has both.
more good stuff than should be legally allowed by law
+1. And that's why practically anything with Neil's name on it will continue to separate me from my money.
I'd say it's a variety of things:
1) New Options - From feats to spells to archetypes to prestige classes. The crunch that immediately causes a player to say, "Oooh, I want to run a character who can do that...or be that." It still needs to be flavorful material, though, and relevant to the topic at hand. This stuff needs to bring that corner of Golarion or that particular species, faith, or organization to life for the players. That's what immediately inspires them, because it gets their character-creation juices flowing. Consequently, this also works for the GMs as it gives them new material to incorporate into NPCs.
2) Roleplay Inspiration - This is where you could probably benefit from some in-character examples of what it's like to be a certain type of character as presented within each topic explored by a Player's Companion. Show, don't tell. Give an example with in-character dialogue, a sample NPC who might serve as a mentor for a PC during their early adventuring career, and...generally...just demonstrate what that archetype, prestige class, race, faith, etc. would be like from a flavor-filled roleplay perspective. It gives both players and GMs something to hang their hat on when they're gathered at the table as they try to properly portray some concept they have in mind. Or, better yet, it helps inspire them to better understand what it means to play a particular concept altogether.
3) A Picture's Worth A Thousand Words - Quite honestly, there's a significant number of players who immediately get drawn in by superior art. The kind that gives them a blood-pumping action scene or demonstration of the power a certain type of character, race, faith, etc. can wield in a specific region or place set in Golarion. You fill a Player's Companion with the best possible depictions of what the words themselves inspire and you'll hook (and engage) the players that much more.
4) Innovate - Introduce new ways of looking at things. Turn some concept on...
+1
I will just add/reinforce that the Companion should really focus on the RP Inspiration and In-world information. What can a player do to create a character that really does seem from that region/race/religion? What are actual things/mannerisms/etc they can do during play? In other words, not just historical information, but actual day to day things that bring out the flavor of the topic.
I think what a lot of you guys are starting to examine is the age-old argument of "more crunchy" vs. "more fluffy"...though both of those terms don't really do it justice. All you really need to realize is that there's a significant set of players who find new mechanical options more engaging...and then there's an entirely different set of players who find new in-world information and roleplay guidance more engaging. Sometimes (but definitely not always), those two groups lean towards the two main styles of game-play (i.e., rollplayers from the hack-and-slash/supreme-optimizers group vs. roleplayers from the storytelling/character-actors group).
Regardless of which style of play you favor or what type of content you'd personally look for in a Player's Companion supplement, as a publisher, Paizo would be better served to try and ring the bell for everyone in order to maximize the product's appeal to as many customers as possible. Basically, you can have your cake and eat it, too. There's more than enough pages to include new mechanical options alongside the roleplay inspiration and world-building add-ons. You just need to bring the awesome on both.
And that's just my two cents,
--Neil
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I agree with a lot of what has been said. Here's what I usually hope to get out of a player's companion:
1. Inspiration for new characters. Not necessarily on the mechanical side, however. I will look at the mechanics you put in there, and if I see a feat or trait (I love traits) I like, I'll beg my GM to use it, but it's not what I'm primarily interested in. I like when the companions give me a picture of what a character could be like.
Faiths of Purity did this particularly well for me. I can't stand playing clerics, but reading this helped me have ideas for religiously motivated characters. It helped flesh out what I consider to be a boring class. Motivation, I think, is actually a key word. I am engaged when the companions help me see how a certain race/class combination would be motivated behavior-wise in Golarion.
2. Knowledge my character should know. As a role-player, I despise having to say to my GM, "So, I want to talk to this guy in a diplomatic way. I don't really know all the formalities, but my character should and I got a really high roll, so can we just assume I did them?" Or: "Wait, where are we? Hey, I'm from this country so shouldn't I know what he's talking about?"
I really like when the companions give me the details my character should know because of her elaborate backstory. I loved the slang terms in the Second Darkness players' guide, for example.
3. Role-playing ideas. I loved in the Elves book how it described how elves seem to other races and how they make decisions--that helped me have some concrete ideas for how to interact with other characters and how to respond in-game. After all, adventurers rarely see normal life, but we have to make decisions constantly. That was helpful. Paladin codes are also a great example of this.
Put another way, I love to role-play. But I am no improv expert. So when the companions prepare me for my "character immersion"--then I am interested.
I guess I would say, I find the companions engaging to read when they spark my imagination.
Hope my ideas make sense!