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Ok, I just have to check. If a Ranger takes a 1 level dip into wizard and chooses Arcane bond Armor. He then takes the master craftsman feat. Does his caster level for enchanting his armor go off of his craft armor skill or off of his actual caster level?
From how I read it Arcane bond gives you the magical craft feat for your bonded item. Master craftsmen allows you to use to use your craft skill in substitution of a caster level and spellcraft skill.
Am I reading this correctly?
Ok, I just have to check. If a Ranger takes a 1 level dip into wizard and chooses Arcane bond Armor. He then takes the master craftsman feat. Does his caster level for enchanting his armor go off of his craft armor skill or off of his actual caster level?
From how I read it Arcane bond gives you the magical craft feat for your bonded item. Master craftsmen allows you to use to use your craft skill in substitution of a caster level and spellcraft skill.
Am I reading this correctly?
Here's how I see Master Craftsman working:
1. You get a +2 on you chosen skill. Easy.
2. Your chosen skill ranks count as your CL for the purpose of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. Simple enough.
3. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. This allows you to create magic items with the Craft feats specifically.
4. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. You need to use your skill to create the item. Note, not the magic item, the item. You actually have to use this feat to make the item before you can determine what magical qualities you want it to possess.
5. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements. You probably don't have the spells needed, so your DC is higher as normal.
6. You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Master Craftsman means that you make an item so well that it is magical. So, to use this with Arcane Bond you would have to craft the bonded item from scratch.
Here's how I see adding magical abilities via Arcane Bond working:
1. The wizard does not need the required item creation feats.
2. However, the wizard must meet the level prerequisites of the item creation feat that would otherwise be used.
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In short, no, I don't think this works like you're reading it. You cannot really combine them for an overall benefit, they are two different things.
In other words, you have to choose which ability you are using.
A. Master Craftsman is only good for the initial creation of the item. And I don't just mean the magical part of the item; I mean the whole item.
That being said, there is no reason you can't craft your own bonded object. But you still have to take the feat Craft Magical Arms and Armor to do so.
B. A wizard must be the level necessary to get the feat Craft Magical Arms and Armor to do this. You have mentioned taking a one level dip, which does not qualify the wizard to enchant armor.
Assuming that the wizard levels were high enough though, then you would be able to enchant the armor, but you would be relying upon your Spellcraft skill instead of your Master Craftsman feat. Specifically, because you would not (as I presume from your above post) have the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat.
If you have, as yet another example, a wizard who's high enough level to enchant the armor, and you have Master Craftsman, and you have Craft Magical Arms and Armor, then you would be able to choose which skill you wanted, your Craft skill, or your Spellcraft skill, as both would be relevant. However, if you chose your Craft skill then you would have to do so with the understanding that you must be creating the item from scratch.
Hope that helps. Hope I understood your question.
First and foremost, you cannot bond with armor. Ring, amulet, staff, wand, or weapon only. As to whether or not the idea would work, it is weird. The ability states "as if he has the required Item Creation Feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat." I would assume that it means "with wizard levels," what with being a wizard class ability, but it is just vague enough to let you rules-lawyer your way through if you really want. It isn't super powerful or anything, so abuse isn't a big enough concern for most GMs to try and stop you, I'd think.
Also, although this is a different discussion, I don't agree with Jo Bird's interpretation of Magical Craftsman. The "you must use the chosen skill" line refers to the check at the end of magical item creation. Whether this limits you to items that list that specific craft (like craft(weapons) for magical weapons) or if it lets your ranks in that skill to make any item is ridiculously contentious, but I have not heard of having to make the item from scratch before.
Arcane Bond Object
1.A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required item creation feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat.
Master Craftsman
2.Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
It seems very clear that the feat allows you to use your chosen skill as the caster level for qualifying for the feat Crafts magic Arms and Armor
The stipulation on Arcane bond states that you need to meet the prerequisites for the feat in order to enchant the Object.
Master craftsman allows you to meet the prerequisites of the feet.
I'm not sure why you are reading it differently.
Mort,
To me it says that the item must be created by the chosen skill. That, coupled with the title of the feat, tell me that the feat is used for Craftsmen who are so gifted that they create/forge/whatever magical items.
See how my version fits not only the obvious spirit of the feat, but also the semantics of the text?
My reading of it is correct. That is not to say that your reading of it is incorrect, just that my position is sound, and solid. I happen to disagree with your assertion that that line is referring to the check at the end of the magical item creation process. I think that's a fine assumption on your part, but it's nothing more than an assumption.
Anyway, to each their own.
By the way, good catch on the armor not being allowed as a bonded object. Obviously, that's correct. I'm assuming that the OP was just using it as a quick example to illustrate his question, and didn't really intend to bond with armor.
Arcane Bond Object
1.A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required item creation feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat.Master Craftsman
2.Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.It seems very clear that the feat allows you to use your chosen skill as the caster level for qualifying for the feat Crafts magic Arms and Armor
The stipulation on Arcane bond states that you need to meet the prerequisites for the feat in order to enchant the Object.
Master craftsman allows you to meet the prerequisites of the feet.
I'm not sure why you are reading it differently.
We are reading it differently because Arcane Bond requires you to meet the level prerequisites of the feats, not just the prerequisites of the feats.
If your argument is that the overall level of the character would meet the prerequisites of the feat then my response is that when class abilities call out levels they are, in general, referring to class levels, and not character levels, as noted in the section of the Core Rulebook on Multiclassing on page 31.
It reads:
"Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class."
Arcane Bond Object
1.A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required item creation feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat.Master Craftsman
2.Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.It seems very clear that the feat allows you to use your chosen skill as the caster level for qualifying for the feat Crafts magic Arms and Armor
The stipulation on Arcane bond states that you need to meet the prerequisites for the feat in order to enchant the Object.
Master craftsman allows you to meet the prerequisites of the feet.
I'm not sure why you are reading it differently.
We are reading it differently because Arcane Bond requires you to meet the level prerequisites of the feats, not just the prerequisites of the feats.
If your argument is that the overall level of the character would meet the prerequisites of the feat then my response is that when class abilities call out levels they are, in general, referring to class levels, and not character levels, as noted in the section of the Core Rulebook on Multiclassing on page 31.
It reads:
"Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class."
I understand where you are coming at on that particular rule Jo. However it says specifically the level perquisite of the Feat. Craft Arms and Armor says you must be 5 Caster Levels.
Arcane Bond is not based on you Wizard levels but is based off of the required Caster Levels of the duplicated feat.
That being Said a Wizard 1/Cleric 5, could use craft magic arms and armor on her Arcane Bound Mace, because she meets the required caster level for the feat. It's done with Cleric levels but it should work.
Let me Phrase this in a different way.
A Level 7 Ranger, Level One Wizard, Level 1 Arcane Archer has a caster level of two.
Now because Craft Arms and Armor has a required Caster level of 5 in order to get it, the above mentioned character cannot enchant his bow.
However the Master Craftsman feat allows the substitution of a craft skill in order to qualify for the Craft magic arms and armor feat. Thus qualifying the above ranger to use his arcane bond class feature to enchant his bow, only if he has 5 ranks in craft skill Bower.
So in that vein can the above ranger use the master craftsman feat to qualify for the feature of arcane bond that allows him to magical enchant his Bonded Bow?
It is about meeting the perquisites for the craft feat.
I completely 100% understand what you are saying. I think it's a strong argument.
I just disagree.
I believe that class abilities are referring to class levels in this case, as shown through the example given in the Arcane Bond text.
This disagreement comes down to interpreting the phrase, "meet the level prerequisite".
You are arguing that the level prerequisite is met by having Master Craftsman, at least for Craft Magical Arms and Armor.
I am arguing that, because it is a class ability, when it says meet the level prereq, it means that you have to actually be that level, and not lean on a feat intended to allow non spellcasters the chance to take magic item creation feats. As in, you have to match the level of the prerequisite, and not just qualify to potentially take the feat. My argument is based on the foundation that Master Craftsman allows you to craft magical items by taking an additional feat, and that the context of the Master Craftsman feat makes that clear, especially in juxtaposition to the context of the Arcane Bond class ability.
I also, for example, do not believe that a Cleric 5/Wizard 1 would be able to do it either. A cleric 5 can potentially take the feat Craft Magic Arms and Armor. But a fifth level cleric has zero impact on a class ability for a wizard.
The rule your using as a guide:
Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class."
Now that rule is a a general catch all rule, that works for animal companions, rage, etc..
However Arcane Bond specifically highlights that all you have to do is meet the requirements for the feat in order to use the feat for you object.
It does not care how you meet those requirements, you just have to meet those requirements. That's it, the end.
Your argument rely's on assuming that the "meet the prerequisite of the feat is a typo.
As long as the perquisite is on the feat, then it is not a class ability.
Arcane Bond is a power that grows according to what you qualify for.
However I did make a mistake earlerier.
The Ranger 7, Has A CL of 4 just one shy...so sad.
I'll also add this: taking Master Craftsman does not really give carte blanche to take the magic item creation feats in question.
Instead, it gives the option to take the feat presuming that the feat is used in a unique manner (no spell-trigger, etc.), which is not what Arcane Bond says is necessary.
Arcane Bond, as a class ability, talks about meeting the level prerequisite for the feat, not just qualifying for a nerfed version of the feat.
The rule your using as a guide:
Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class."
Now that rule is a a general catch all rule, that works for animal companions, rage, etc..
However Arcane Bond specifically highlights that all you have to do is meet the requirements for the feat in order to use the feat for you object.
It does not care how you meet those requirements, you just have to meet those requirements. That's it, the end.
Your argument rely's on assuming that the "meet the prerequisite of the feat is a typo.
As long as the perquisite is on the feat, then it is not a class ability.
Arcane Bond is a power that grows according to what you qualify for.
However I did make a mistake earlerier.
The Ranger 7, Has A CL of 4 just one shy...so sad.
My argument in no way relies upon a section of the text being a typo.
My argument states a different interpretation of that line, which is congruent with the generic multiclass rule.
You keep writing "meet the prerequisite" instead of "meet the level prerequisite". It does not say in the text that you have to qualify for the feat. It does not say in the text that you have to qualify for a nerfed down version of the feat. It says that you have to meet (as in match) the level prerequisite of the feat, which, in the case of Craft Magical Arms and Armor, is five. As a class ability, it is referring to wizard class levels, not character levels.
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It says that you have to meet (as in match) the level prerequisite of the feat, which, in the case of Craft Magical Arms and Armor, is five. As a class ability, it is referring to wizard class levels, not character levels.
This is quite a jump in logic, Jo. The feat itself specifies Caster Level. Caster Level means total levels of spell-casting classes (mix or match). In no case does the feat specify that the Caster Levels must be from one class or another.
If you qualify for the feat (Craft Magical Arms and Armor or any other Craft feat), you can use the feat. Period.
If the feat can be used to create/modify an item, it can create/modify the item. Period.
Applying your argument that only Wizard levels would apply because Arcane Bond is a class ability is a big stretch. It's labeled as a class ability because you have to be a Wizard to have an Arcane Bond. That is all. There is no other evidence stating that only Wizard levels count toward using Craft skills to modify the item.
Anything else is speculation.
Larry,
The multiclass rules on page 31 of the Core Rulebook speak about class abilities.
It reads:
"Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class."
That is where my "speculation" comes from.
In addition, Master Craftsman only allows the item crafting feats under certain conditions, the most important being that the item crafting feat doesn't work in the normal manner.
I have never said that the OP did not have a strong case for his interpretation. I have said that I disagree. Stating that you must meet (as in match, per the dictionary) the level prerequisite is saying that you have to be level five, which is the level prerequisite.
It is my "speculation" that those five levels have to be in the wizard class due to the multiclass rules copied and pasted for your benefit above.