so i have been thinking about this topic for a while now and i cant seem to find any articles online about the subject, so i thought id ask the Paizo community since as a community we can be very civil and respectful in regards to topics at hand.
so i know that realism in RPGs is a big topic for some people so im really ONLY LOOKING FOR OPINIONS FROM PLAYERS/GMS THAT LIKE REALISM IN THEIR GAMES! i do not want this to turn out to be a big argument and the devs have to lock the board (like they did when my compliment on art in a board a while back got locked due to it turning out to be an argument about charisma).
take the movie Kingdom of Heaven for example. after the first big fight scene in the movie, i could see the characters taking certain things, like arrows and bolts to replace those lost or broken, and maybe the occasional sword to sell, but as a whole, i see that they left most of the gear, such as clothing or armor, on the bodies, as a sign of respect or maybe they couldnt carry it all (that many armors can be very heavy). but thats with a group of individuals that are semi noble. so what about a group thats the opposite?
even so, why take everything? i think it can be easier explained away in fantasy games where looting was common, but even in movies and such, most of the equipment or a portion of it was left on bodies. ive seen dozens of movies where this is the case. the characters ride by, see the bodies, most of the crap is still with them, and then they move on.
then theres the argument about magical equipment. its expensive and handy. well the same can be said about electronics nowadays and in games with a modern/futuristic setting. ive come across this in games such as World of Darkness and Shadowrun (the latter i dont really like). the players seem to kill the bad guys and take every little thing they can get their grubby little hands on. but as we all know in modern setting movies and real life, this may rarely be the case, unless robbery was a main goal in the beginning.
for example, how many times have you watched a crime show (like Law and Order, CSI, NCIS, Criminal Minds, etc) where the good guys show up to the crime scene to see the body and all of the valuble stuff is missing? for me, rarely. every once in a while you see that, but usually robbery was a main goal of the antagonist. if it wasnt, that crap you stole could be used as evidence against you. you sell it? they can track it. you reuse it? its sitting in your house. thats if you even can use it if its not password protected. even if you could get by that, there are still ways to tie things back to you if those devices were ever found. and im sorry, not everyone has black market contracts. i in real life couldnt tell you where to start to find a black market dealer. and if i could, im pretty sure if the cops came sniffing around, hed tell them exactly where he got it from.
i think in modern/futuristic settings, since catching criminals is now a science, people dont want to steal things on top of their regular plans, such as murder, for fear of getting caught. so why wouldnt this be the case in those RPGs where the settings take place? the most hazy of this comes into play in fantasy RPGs. why take the stuff in the first place? to get better gear? ok, understandable. but every single piece of crap on the individual? why do groups in almost any roleplaying game bust out their crowbars to scrape the gold fleck off the desk/walls/etc into a cup to sell it later?
its not like ive looted bodies in the past, but ive been thinking about why people would even do this sort of thing. of course you have multiple different types of characters with different backgrounds. but if this was commonplace realistically, every dead body in every movie and in history would be completely and utterly naked when you came across them, and this just isnt the case.
im not saying one way or another is bad. i think its more out of place in modern settings and such due to catching criminals is now a science, but even in fantasy games, where companies, such as Paizo, put things in their cities like town guards and investigators to catch criminals. no they dont have science, but they can have magic, which can be just as good and better. so from where i see it, the town guard could try to figure out who did what and track them down, even outside of the city (they used to do that all the time in the wild west days).
im just curious to see what peoples viewpoints are on this subject in any RPG setting, but more so, fantasy. im not gonna go off and just hinder my players and say they CANT do it, but it would be nice to know what kinds of repercussions they face when they do do things like that for when i run my games, which are heavily realistic (you can blame my time in the marines for my realistic approach to things). its also nice to know to tell the players since their characters would know just what they are getting themselves into. and thats if i decide if them looting every single spec of dust on the bad guy is going to be dealt with or not.
basically i just want opinions on the topic from the community. whats your viewpoint and why? for fantasy? for modern day? for futuristic? not looking for post apocalyptic; looting everything useful in that type of setting just makes sense. please be civil. thanks. look forward to seeing what people have to say.
My Dad fought in WWII and looting the enemy dead was quite common. To some extent (like for smokes, food, medical supplies, ammo) you even looted your own dead. Watch “The Pacific” and you’ll see that looting was quite common.
My Dad fought in WWII and looting the enemy dead was quite common. To some extent (like for smokes, food, medical supplies, ammo) you even looted your own dead. Watch “The Pacific” and you’ll see that looting was quite common.
ive seen band of brothers and i saw that it was common and it makes sense why it would be in certain circumstances and for certain things. what are your thoughts about when small groups, like a band of characters do it?
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I think that looting corpses makes sense. I'm not talking about stripping them naked, but at least looking for money and anything useful, like weapons or other equipment. Armor would be too much to carry.
I think this is just skipped in most movies and TV shows to keep the action moving, but I've seen it done in some of them.
My Dad fought in WWII and looting the enemy dead was quite common. To some extent (like for smokes, food, medical supplies, ammo) you even looted your own dead. Watch “The Pacific” and you’ll see that looting was quite common.ive seen band of brothers and i saw that it was common and it makes sense why it would be in certain circumstances and for certain things. what are your thoughts about when small groups, like a band of characters do it?
I think the added element of magical gear, and a currency system based on precious metals and coins, looting is inevitably going to be an extremely common practice. Now, as to COMPLETELY stripping down every body you come across? Eh... I try to discourage or curb that. It's not practical to carry around dozens of weapons, suits of armor, random clothing, and so on. I think it's also safe to reason that a merchant is going to be far less likely to purchase a suit of armor that's been hacked and cleaved to shreds with bloodstains all over it. Unless it's an unscrupulous merchant, then he might offer far less for the nature of the exchange.
I, for one, love Shadowrun and in our previous game we didn't just loot the bodies, the bodies were the loot. Turns out the Vory pay good for organs...
Looting is EXTEMELY common in real life, less so in movies since the movies are not about 'getting phat lewts' but telling a story.
But in any war, soldiers loot like crazy. Most do not loot every stitch of clothing or all the weapons and ammunition now days since they have no way to TRANSPORT all that gear (it is heavy and bulky as hell) and most firearms they use would need specific ammunition. If your enemy is not using the same ammo then it is useless to you.
Counterpoint to this in most fantasy gaming worlds, where magic bags of holding are crazy common, so weight and even bulk becomes a non issue, then hauling off that loot becomes a LOT easier and less dangerous (a soldier on a battlefield today loaded down with loot is an easy target and will have a hard time traversing terrain or finding cover for example). Also arrows are pretty usable on nearly any bow, so taking the enemy ammo is a LOT easier.
Fantasy worlds are worlds where violence is an acceptable (possibly common) means of settling dangerous problems. They are worlds filled with danger where 'heros' are regularly EXPECTED to confront darkness. The loot for profit model has worked for ages, in reality and in gaming, it is simply a lot easier to haul OFF the loot in a fantasy world where you can put a semi tractor trailors worth of stuff in a bag on your hip and it only weighs about 30 ponds no matter what.
Plus most advenruers are physically more capable than even most real world soldiers (they are FANTASY characters after all with superhuman abilities and magic powers) so hauling around a few of those magic bags is simple as well.
But do not use most movies as examples of what a fantasy world would do in an RPG game. Movies do not dwell on the necessities of life for the most part, like buying food, using the facoilities, making your rent, etc. They are there to tell a dramatic story and focus on things that enhance that.
As listed in the thread, documentary style drama's, like 'The Pacific', 'Band of Brothers', or even 'Three Kings' show quite well the amount of looting that goes on in most war zones or by those who are soldiers in war, which is the closest real world analagy we have to 'adventurors' in our world.
Lastly, a dragon's hoard is a common staple trope of the entire Sword and Sorcery genre. Killing the evil dragon and getting his pile of gold and items is ancient lore, and that grew into the common fantasy setup most RPG games have today.
All that said, your party will probably face the same restrictions a real world soldier would face once they get back to 'civilization'. Killing is not their right and more than likely a capital crime, taking stuff from those that attack them would be unlikely if the city watch is involved, etc. That is why it is civilization and not the wilds.
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Looting would have been VERY common after a battle. YOu just don't see it in movies and TV because it isn't very interesting to see the hero spend 30 minutes peeling the chainmail off a lead enemy. Arms and armor were VERY valuable and it would be foolish to leave them lying around. In some instances, it would be left on a valiant foe or sold back to the family.
This applies to every time frame (ancient through modern era). If not looting for weapons or necessities, but for trophies. That being said, not everything is valuable. Modern soldiers may not bother with the oodles of knock-off AK's found in Afghanistan, but they may take a round off his clip as a momento.
It seems to me that some of the modern views you're describing are rather anachronistic in a fantasy setting. In the dark ages and even in later eras there was little in the way of investigation and judicial punishment for violent crimes beyond the Hue and Cry; which amounts to improvised mob justice. That's to say that retribution for wrongdoing was largely dependant on the ability of families and villages to police themselves. That's why traveling was so dangerous; if one is away from one's friends and family there would be no one to protect/avenge you if you were waylaid and therefore no real deterrent to those who might want to rob you. Kith and kin were a sort of social insurance against random violence. Fleeing the Hue and Cry or otherwise evading justice meant that a person was automatically guilty and so would be declared an "outlaw", meaning "outside of the rule of law", meaning that they weren't under anyone's protection and so could be hunted, killed and looted by anyone who cared enough to do so.
Keep in mind that, often enough in fantasy settings, the PCs are in isolated areas fighting monsters and blatantly evil people; well away from civilization and the rule of law. Often enough, the PCs themselves (especially if they include paladins, clerics and knights) are the closest thing to an official investigative police force in the area. Who's going to object if a monster or a nobody is slain in the woods or in a dungeon's depths, let alone that they were also looted? Back in civilization, the rulers and merchants are simply going to be happy to see travellers returning with treasure and money to share via taxes and purchases.
Think of it another way; If you're the ruler of a fiefdom, what's it to you if people are killing each other someplace in your demesne? Let the peasants and villagers police their own; you've got enough to worry about in keeping armed invaders off your land. Sacrificing some of your knights to ride around policing people will affect your bottom line. The only time it becomes a concern is when wanton violence has raised general unease and discontentment to such a degree that it's threatening your ability to rule and collect your taxes. Only then must you get personally involved.
take the movie Kingdom of Heaven for example. after the first big fight scene in the movie, i could see the characters taking certain things, like arrows and bolts to replace those lost or broken, and maybe the occasional sword to sell, but as a whole, i see that they left most of the gear, such as clothing or armor, on the bodies
That's a directorial choice rather than a reflection of reality. Looting isn't shown in the movie because the director wants to romanticize the nobility of the combatants. Also, showing the victors picking their way across the battlefield riffling through the dead's pockets does little to advance the movie's plot.
Take a close look at Braveheart for a counterpoint. It's made clear early in the movie that the Scots aren't permitted to own weapons. During the earliest battles we consequently see them fighting unarmored with improvised weapons including sharpened sticks, clubs and horn knives. But after their first few victories we start seeing some of the scots wearing armor and wielding swords. As the movie progresses more and more of the Scots seem to have chain armor, metal helms, swords and shields. Obviously the winners were looting the fallen off-screen between battles. Eventually it's even stated that the Scots have sacked york; i.e. looted an entire city!
My Dad fought in WWII and looting the enemy dead was quite common. To some extent (like for smokes, food, medical supplies, ammo) you even looted your own dead. Watch “The Pacific” and you’ll see that looting was quite common.
I've read accounts from WWII soldiers in the pacific not only looting enemies of their gear but (warning, distasteful stuff ahead) collecting their bones to carve out trinkets and jewelry as souvenirs. There was even competition to find the remains of Kamikaze pilots before one's fellows so as to get ahold of the best bits. War is a surreal environment in which otherwise ordinary people find themselves carrying out seemingly bizarre activities.
This reminds me of our Carrion Crown experiences.
At one point you are invited to somebody's home, the usual things ensue, no answer break in fight stuff something is wrong blah blah.
Of course we find loot in rooms, tapestries candlestick holders etc.. Now I'm thinking, how rude is it that we are invited to someone's home, so we break in and steal his stuff.
It would be akin to my players showing up early to our PF session, letting themselves in and loading up on my silverware.
I remember "rescuing" our host and presenting him his possessions that we seized as er...evidence!
I agree that in RPG's the wealth system is set by looting, however it does lead to some head-scratching moments.
Looting is EXTEMELY common in real life, less so in movies since the movies are not about 'getting phat lewts' but telling a story.
But in any war, soldiers loot like crazy. Most do not loot every stitch of clothing or all the weapons and ammunition now days since they have no way to TRANSPORT all that gear (it is heavy and bulky as hell) and most firearms they use would need specific ammunition. If your enemy is not using the same ammo then it is useless to you.
Counterpoint to this in most fantasy gaming worlds, where magic bags of holding are crazy common, so weight and even bulk becomes a non issue, then hauling off that loot becomes a LOT easier and less dangerous (a soldier on a battlefield today loaded down with loot is an easy target and will have a hard time traversing terrain or finding cover for example). Also arrows are pretty usable on nearly any bow, so taking the enemy ammo is a LOT easier.
Fantasy worlds are worlds where violence is an acceptable (possibly common) means of settling dangerous problems. They are worlds filled with danger where 'heros' are regularly EXPECTED to confront darkness. The loot for profit model has worked for ages, in reality and in gaming, it is simply a lot easier to haul OFF the loot in a fantasy world where you can put a semi tractor trailors worth of stuff in a bag on your hip and it only weighs about 30 ponds no matter what.
Plus most advenruers are physically more capable than even most real world soldiers (they are FANTASY characters after all with superhuman abilities and magic powers) so hauling around a few of those magic bags is simple as well.
But do not use most movies as examples of what a fantasy world would do in an RPG game. Movies do not dwell on the necessities of life for the most part, like buying food, using the facoilities, making your rent, etc. They are there to tell a dramatic story and focus on things that enhance that.
As listed in the thread, documentary style drama's, like 'The Pacific', 'Band of Brothers', or even...
I use movies as an example since when I run a game I try to make it play out like a movies, thus more focus on the story and characters and not on gear. Looting I think will always be a big thing in RPGs that have their mechanics heavily based on gear, which I disagree with but what are you gonna do?
As for that its common in real life, on a low scale not so much. The local news reports a lot of things, and its usually stated when they report murders that the victims crap was all gone, which isn't really the case, and if it is, its not a murder, its a robbery and murder was one of the results.
There's even a command for it. The expression "Cry 'HAVOC' and release the dogs of war" references the command that releases the soldiers of the need to stay in organized formation and allows them to begin looting at will.
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A more thorough answer would be: let your players loot as much as they want, but make them realize that they may be expending a lot of effort for very little return. Contrary to most MMO's not every vendor will take your 'vendor trash' when you get back to town. Carrying a lot of stuff should slow you down, enforce the encumberance rules.
Also, if you're in the middle of a battle, you don't have time to loot everything because others are actively trying to kill you. Sure, you can grab the +5 sword and maybe a necklace or ring, but you're not going to be able to loot every pocket in a melee. Under stressful situations, have them make an Appraise check to ID the most valuable pieces of gear to grab.
Lastly, make magic items unique (in appearance and effect, not necessarily uber-rare). If they loot form a well-respected NPC or someone with connections, they may be on the lookout for the guy who killed Count Redford, wielder of Elbereth, Stealer of Souls.
Overall, I think Ambrus has some very good points.
I do think there's a limit to what the war analogy can do for you. Trophies and obviously portable valuables (gold teeth spring to mind) are somewhat the exceptions that prove the rule. There's a lot more scrounging for sustenance, and wear and tear on what you have. When's the last time the PCs took the goblin's rations, so that they'd have food to eat, or took the bandit's (non-magical) boots to replace their own? Much less something to replace a broken weapon, rather than an upgrade? It's not that we don't go there, we just generally, as tabletop gamers, go in for that level of detail, unless the game is specifically about that level of detail (post-apoc. games with extensive equipment wear values and survival requirements spring to mind).
Personally, I tend to approach the matter with more than a little dark humor, the crowning moment in one game being when the party discovered they were being followed by a merchant, who made his living off of whatever it was below them to loot at the moment.
I think there are 2 angles to look at this problem. First of all from a narrative perspective, looting the corpses doesnt make very good storytelling in a film or a novel. No one wants to sit there and whatch 15 minutes of the protagonists picking through the defeated foes pockets. Maybe a quick swipe of some jewelry by the sneaky character to add some personality, but otherwise it would be a tedious and possibly negative scene in the story.
Oppositely, in rpgs like pathfinder, there is much to be found in searching the bodies. Valuable and powerful magic items, or clues/notes/letters/plot hooks are often found on defeated foes by convention. I have often used and seen such a plot hook found on enemies bodies in games i've played, so it actually forwards the narrative instead of halting it in an rpg. I rarely see that sort of thing in films or books though.
The second, and bigger angle, is that in pathfinder/dnd money == power. Money can be one way or another translated into magic items. And not only are these great to have mechanically, but they are actually neccessary. Players want this power for obvious reasons, and many adventures are written assuming that gear will be taken and used to gain wealth (or used as equipment for the players). Look at paizo's own adventures. The overwhelming way treasure is received is from fallen foes.
So long as money = power players will and should take everything they can carry. I've seen whole mansions stripped bare with proper use of magic and wagons and such.
And honestly I hate it. Its not very heroic for the 'hero' to leave a corpse naked in a corner. Like you say most characters in film and novels dont do this. It is why I have replaced magic items with bonuses characters automatically get as they level (since the game assumes they will have roughly near wealth by level in equipment). That way they have what they NEED, and I can make magic items exeedingly rare (and interesting again). It is impossible to craft most magic items, and all the ones that exist are priceless. So there are fewer built in ways to turn wealth into power. I hope with this to discourage the 'pick them clean' mentality for most heroes, and just let the characters where that is actually part of their personality do so when needed. Paladins dont need to grave rob. Wizards dont swipe everyones armor and put it in a magic sack for later. And while the rogue might go through an enemy's pockets for cash, he wont be so inclined to swipe everything the npc is carrying.
I've been taking a course on crusades history (since you mention Kingdom of Heaven), and there's been an impressive number of references in the primary sources to looting. People are either talking about the great loot they got, bemoaning the accidental loss of loot, talking about the rights surrounding the loot, and how preservation of loot influences their battle plans.
And we're talking about clothes and armor and weapons and jewelry and food and horses here. They were stripping the enemy down completely if they had the chance. Not merely for survival but for sheer financial gain.
Realism in loot is basically a matter of time. If you really want to put controls on it, create a standardized rule for the time taken to loot the body, and then enact time-sensitive motivations not to loot.
In wealth-motivated adventures like those featured heavily in the game, you should expect the attitude toward the possessions of the dead to be very grisly indeed. Just as it is in reality.
Personally, I tend to approach the matter with more than a little dark humor, the crowning moment in one game being when the party discovered they were being followed by a merchant, who made his living off of whatever it was below them to loot at the moment.
That's awesome! I may wantonly loot that idea. =P
It's also important to note that many professional soldiers flocked to a lord's banner solely for the opportunity to kill and loot opposing forces. Systematic looting, sacking and pillaging was also, more often than not, the key to raising, equipping and maintaining a large army. Most warlords don't start off their careers with enough cash and equipment to carry out their ambitious plans. Armies survive by looting; they're constantly hunting around for the next big score to keep going. Why else would a fighting force numbering in the tens of thousands come together in the first place if not for the promise of future financial gain?
And honestly I hate it. Its not very heroic for the 'hero' to leave a corpse naked in a corner. Like you say most characters in film and novels dont do this. It is why I have replaced magic items with bonuses characters automatically get as they level (since the game assumes they will have roughly near wealth by level in equipment). That way they have what they NEED, and I can make magic items exeedingly rare (and interesting again). It is impossible to craft most magic items, and all the...
i have to agree with you in that i hate it as well, but not because of the magic items rarity. i hate it because sometimes it doesnt match what my character would do. i once had an elf that refused to lot things because he was arrogant and "My s*!+ is better!" my current character is a gnome child with the collection trait from the gnome book, so most crap off of bad guys is useless to me, except things that are usually useless to other people or something a child would like to have.
the other reason i agree that i hate it is because the game is half based on gear, while i think really the only games that should be should be post apocalyptic. this isnt the case, so you have christmas tree effects and players getting more gear than they were meant to at a certain time, etc. but like i said, gotta play with what youre given.
If you really want to put controls on it, create a standardized rule for the time taken to loot the body, and then enact time-sensitive motivations not to loot.
i dont want to put controls on it. im just trying to see what peoples viewpoints/opinions on looting is in a realistic setting. the reason i brought up Kingdom of Heaven and why i say that they didnt loot everything like pcs would do is because i can see Liam Neeson's character saying "we arent taking everything. show some respect for the dead and leave them with their weapons and armor. its a right any man has when they go to the grave." you know? the baron-y thing to do. and i say this because of the vow he took and thus Orlando Bloom took later on in the movie.
but thank you for your input ;)
one thing i would like to add in is that in real life, if i were to go to a bar, and some girl hit on me, and while i was leaving her boyfriend attacked me and i knocked him out, the LAST thing im gonna do is check his wallet for cash before i bolt out of there before the cops come. im not a rogue. but thats just modern day mentality of most people. but i could see something like that being used in fantasy. i mean, a rogue could do it, but what is stopping the pcs from taking everything off of some npc they knocked out? "besides, he attacked us first. thatll teach him." with the way groups loot items in RPG where gear helps make you potent, i could see this happening, except usually npcs arent just knocked out.
one thing i would like to add in is that in real life, if i were to go to a bar, and some girl hit on me, and while i was leaving her boyfriend attacked me and i knocked him out, the LAST thing im gonna do is check his wallet for cash before i bolt out of there before the cops come. im not a rogue. but thats just modern day mentality of most people. but i could see something like that being used in fantasy. i mean, a rogue could do it, but what is stopping the pcs from taking everything off of some npc they knocked out? "besides, he attacked us first. thatll teach him." with the way groups loot items in RPG where gear helps make you potent, i could see this happening, except usually npcs arent just knocked out.
I lolled and had a Scott Pilgrim image in my head. :3
Anyway, I've never actually been in a game where the enemy was stripped naked. We've taken weapons and magical items, but that's not unrealistic at all (and you specifically asked for people who've played in realistic games). If you want a more heroic feel to your game, have the PCs paid by an employer and have them look down on those who loot the their enemies. Otherwise, the only advice is to just deal with it.
The reason i brought up Kingdom of Heaven and why i say that they didnt loot everything like pcs would do is because i can see Liam Neeson's character saying "we arent taking everything. show some respect for the dead and leave them with their weapons and armor. its a right any man has when they go to the grave." you know? the baron-y thing to do....
Yep, I hear you, and what I am claiming is that "respect for the dead and their possessions" attitude is somewhat of a modern construction. Even the most pious knights of the crusades (it seems from my reader) had a very healthy interest in spoils, especially weapons, armor and horses of quality.
Take it as just another opinion on what's realistic. If you want an example, I think there's a part in the poem of El Cid where they lament so many of the enemy drowning where their weapons and armor could not be recovered. I read that and I instantly thought of treasure-hungry gamers.
One recent weekend, there was a drunk dude passed out on a sketchy side of town, and he woke up with no shoes on--someone took them off his feet while he was passed out.
I agree there's a lack of verisimilitude of stripping every last thing off a body most of the time--and in many cases, "realistically," clothing and armor on a dead person is probably both damaged and gross--you probably don't really want to touch it unless you're desperate.
Circumstances can vary a LOT, but let's draw up a fairly typical RPG scenario: The four PCs are career adventurers. They aim to strike it rich adventuring, and that usually means finding a lot of loot (or they need to find their campaign to save the princess or whatever). They are walking through a dungeon when the goblins that have set camp before them in the dungeon ambush them. The party fights off the goblins, kills them. In my games, the bodies do get searched. Any useful weapons and valuables are taken. They wouldn't take the Small suits of leather armor or even a bunch of small shortswords unless they had a use for them (they aren't even worth all that much, relatively speaking). I think that's probably within reason.
Now, the party later fights the wizard holed up in the bottom of the dungeon. They might well take the time to strip him nearly bare, because those robes look magical and that jewelry he's wearing is nice. There's even some ostensible moral reasons to do this -- if those magic robes turn out to be robes of the evil archmagi it's better not to have them lying around for another evil wizard to make use of. And otherwise---professional adventurers, they need the money to get Bob's restoration spell, pay the princess's ransom, etc.
On the other hand, you get attacked by thieves in the street in a crowded city, the more time you take to pick through the thieves' bodies, the more likely you're to be caught by a passerby who will assume YOU'RE the thief. So it'd be prudent to simply grab the most obvious money pouches and go.
If there's someone who's obsessive about taking every last thing all the time, it might be worth having a chat with them. Or in character you could just start describing in detail what the body is doing as it begins the process of death and decay....
But otherwise I'd really take it on a case by case basis, as there are a lot of different circumstances to account for. If it makes sense, do it; if it doesn't, nothing should stop you from playing out the consequences of the PCs' actions.
Now, the party later fights the wizard holed up in the bottom of the dungeon. They might well take the time to strip him nearly bare, because those robes look magical and that jewelry he's wearing is nice.you got me blind to feelings
I crush your face I take your jewels
you have no way of dealin'~
Yep, I hear you, and what I am claiming is that "respect for the dead and their possessions" attitude is somewhat of a modern construction. Even the most pious knights of the crusades (it seems from my reader) had a very healthy interest in spoils, especially weapons, armor and horses of quality.Take it as just another opinion on what's realistic. If you want an example, I think there's a part in the poem of El Cid where they lament so many of the enemy drowning where their weapons and armor could not be recovered. I read that and I instantly thought of treasure-hungry gamers.
This is also dependent on culture. You won't often see samurai looting bodies, for example, because touching dead bodies is unclean and a job for the lowest caste. Peasants, however, will be less likely to have such compunctions.
Romans legions, however, looted not only armor and weapons, but also took plenty of slaves to tote it all in the baggage train.
let me reitterate one thing before i continue. im not having problems in any of the games i play in/run. thats not the reason for the post or what im looking for. im just trying to see what other peoples viewpoints are.
now with that said, id like to throw another topic at everyone. is the reason that many groups loot every single thing off of the bodies past RPGs like DnD and such, where gear helps make the character potent? games where gear isnt as important to the mechanics, like WOD, at least in my group is like any other game. kill the bad guys (or something like that), then take all the goodies.
lets just say that PF 2.0 came out (i dont ever think this will happen, i think that Paizo will just keep going on with what they got, and if 2.0 does come out, it wont be for a VERY VERY long time, but lets just say) and the system is no longer dependent on gear. will that stop the need to loot? or do we just continue this habit anyways because "thats what weve always done in RPGs, so why stop now?"
what about if DnD in the past and other games werent gear dependent? would we have still looted every single useful thing (and some not so useful things) since we never needed them in the first place?
if you answer no, then does that mean that the only reason we loot is because we are trained to by RPGs that are gear dependent?
In the games I play in we loot everything.
I mean we strip the bodies down to the birthday suit and unless the furniture looks valuable we do a "Steve" furniture check, meaning smash it to bits looking for secret compartments.
We have had to resort to these extreme measures because the DM sets the DC's for search so freaking high it's not worth it any other way.
Plus he limits our wealth to stop us from becoming too powerful too quickly.
The casters in our group have to take item creation feats because we wouldn't get anything decent otherwise. The DM will look at a module and then say no way am I giving you guys this .... it's too powerful/expensive/broken or whatever other reason he has. Not caring that that item represents the loot that's supposed to be in the mod.
My group has become very good at looting. Some one always takes the mercantile feat so we can sell stuff at 75% instead of 50% then that person is generally the face of the group a decent diplomacy check increases the sell price to 85%.
We never leave the dead where they lay when were in the dungeon because we need undead trap finders( saves on healing) Everybody has at least one sometimes two belts of healing, better than potions, longer lasting than wands.
The business section in the DMG two helps us as well. My druid runs a mining operation, a rock quarry, at least 10 different farms. He makes roughly 1K gp a month in profit.
It may not be heroic but it's the only way to afford the equipment you need. Having suffered too many TPK's because we didn't have the right weapons to overcome DR and were too low level to overcome SR we have had to adapt our tactic to be heroic bandits.
Realistically I take prisoners weapons in PF for many in game reasons that make sense. If the guy does not have a weapon he is less likely to escape and then slit our throats. And knowing he does not have a weapon the prisoner might be less courageous and rebel against us less often.
Also if it is powerful magical items if you leave it in an isolated dungeons what is stopping say more goblins or other monstrous races from taking the magic items and gaining more wealth to stop the city or town.
Although I ahve had player that looted really minor things like just some plates I put in a hideout for flavor. They were not even special or anything.
Historically, if you look at accounts of most (European) war, from Roman times [where they'd cast lots for picks] to the Crusades to the Celts, there was a strong tradition for stripping fallen enemies.
There were several reasons for this: Personal gain (wealth) being the most obvious (and probably the strongest motivator), but there's also the matter of gaining trophies... And, the third reason might even be why it was encouraged: in stripping the dead, you're denying that equipment to your remaining enemies - while potentially resupplying your own force. (Often, you have a lot more bodies than you do weapons of quality)
And while you're worried about the grittiness of it, while the officers might not take every small scrap of value, that's in no small part due to the fact that the higher ranking folk got first picks, and so by the time you got to the lowly commoners, all that was left were the scraps -- and from the record, they took that. (And what wasn't taken was often then grabbed by scavengers who would follow armies -- a practice that still happens now with people digging up old shell casings for the metal)
The times you don't see that are generally when you're under a time constraint -- it's not worth taking 10 minutes to search the cultist guards if you know that the sacrifice ceremony is in progress.... (Of course, you can always search them on the way out.)
So, to answer your question, do I think it unrealistic? No.
In fact, from my experience, you even see the wealth effect that happened in real life also happen in respect to looting as a party gains levels -- at level 1, they take as much as they can carry, then they start only grabbing masterwork or better, then, even less so...
Is that a function of stuff being so important? Well, yes -- sort of. Remember, again, that this is what happened in the real world - so, no, it's not just because RPGs "trained" us to be that way.
Bottom line is this: Wealth = power.
In game terms, the wealth could let you buy a +4 Holy Demonbane bow -- whereas in real life, it let you buy Indulgences, favours from nobles, titles, land, etc, etc...
Ultimately, it's all about gaining power -- the only difference is the shape that power takes.
It seems that to me from these responses, tv shows on history, and books I have read that looting is very much realistic.
I do think it makes for a boring movie though, but movies and games are different mediums.
Media. :)
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Looting of dead is very common.
As some mention WWII. Everyone took off the dead and it was not just smokes, but weapons, helmets, and yes sometimes clothing depending on it's shape (Boots most common)
In the American Civil War is was common more among the Confederate's than the north but the north would take a good pair of boots IF they found then along with an officers sword. Weapons taken off the North was also common. The south was so poorly equipped that taking something good off a dead "Yank" was not seen as bad.
The Native Americans also did this. They would take hats, jackets, pants, weapons... anything they could use. The Dog Soldier was a person refereed to as someone dressing in US uniform and fighting in it.
In the Roman times it was common for those the Roman's fought (Celts, Gauls, etc...) to take weapons, helmets and armor. Not so much to use in a fight but to sacrifice to their deities or to display as a trophy. To many it was considered wrong or ill to use the tools of the Roman's
The Vikings took anything and everything they could get their hands on. A good sword or armor was a valued prize and part of the spoils of war. Having such could raise your status
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...and the system is no longer dependent on gear. will that stop the need to loot? or do we just continue this habit anyways because "thats what weve always done in RPGs, so why stop now?"
what about if DnD in the past and other games werent gear dependent? would we have still looted every single useful thing (and some not so useful things) since we never needed them in the first place?
if you answer no, then does that mean that the only reason we loot is because we are trained to by RPGs that are gear dependent?
Even if the system wasn't gear-dependent, there would still be looting. Generally, those with the most toys win, or at least can have more toys. Even old WoD games I've been in, we've looted some of the bodies if they had something useful on them (the hunter had a flare gun? Pocket it, it'll be useful when the Sabbat shovel-heads show up). In a Twilight 2000 game I'm in, we take weapons and ammo from killed enemies to resell or trade. Be it a +1 longsword or an expensive painting or an AK-74, a resource is a resource which can be traded for favors, more resources or simply kept as a trophy.
I think we've definitely covered the whole "looting is sometimes realistic" angle.
Getting back to the OP's request, if you want to avoid crass looting, you need to establish that the characters have moral reservations or at least time constraints. You can't make that decision for the players, at least, I wouldn't.
Some game systems use a "wealth rating" or a similar abstract. This definitely has the effect of rich characters not nickel-and-diming every dead NPC, since unless the object is of urgent utility, it's just dead weight.
A house rule I've seen recently is to have the players completely reset gear to the WBL table at every level. This removes gear from the CR adjustments you have to make as a GM. It would also remove the incentive to scrounge every last bit of treasure, since every level the treasure would vanish. If you include a lot of downtime for every level, this system isn't even unrealistic — an abstract system is at least as accurate as a concrete system tracked poorly, and most games don't account for food, lodging, and mundane expenses. So why not?
Looting weapons? Hell, yeah. Per Mikhail Kalashnikov: "In Vietnam, American soldiers threw away their M-16 rifles and used AK-47s from dead Vietnamese soldiers, with bullets they captured."
I remember in the first Musashi movie, there was an old lady and her daughter who he hung out with for a few nights; they were in the business of gleaning battlefields for equipment for resale....they were kinda on the scuzzy side of the tracks.....the old lady was trying to get Musashi to hook up with her daughter, but he wouldn't have any of that, on account of he was on the path of the kensai or whatever.....
Then these bandits came over to give them a hassle, and Toshiro Mifune up and wupped all their asses with a bokken.
Well, I remember stories about how soldiers would steal the teeth of their enemies in the XVIII-XIX century, as they were highly sought by dentists in order to craft replacements for their patients.
And things like a good pair of boots, a sturdy hat or even socks could be a priced commodity in certain long-dragging wars.
Think of it this way: If there is people willing to face the law in order to steal almost anything from you, there will certainly be people willing to loot almost anything from a corpse. Sometimes it doesn't even have to be useful; it is there, it is free, and they have no way of knowing they won't need a boat-shaped tobacco pipe in the near future.
In our Pathfinder games, my players rarely loot corpses (seriously, they often leave quite a few interesting things behind). But in our Warhammer Fantasy RP 2e games, they steal even the concept of the body being there. Shoes, hair, bone, skin, tongues, everything ends up sold, eaten, refurbished or somehow taken advantage of.
There's a player in my group who has taken the art of looting to an art form. After defeating a dragon in combat, he was adamant he was going to skin the thing and sell its scales for colossal sums of gold. To this end, he utilised magical weapons to help in the skinning process, magical bags to store the scales, summoned creatures to help carry the bags and more. It was bonkers, and took up an entire playing session, but he was almost admirable in his single-minded determination to carry out this task.
Unfortonate antagonism between party and dm.
Its this sort of stuff that I want to avoid. The difference in perceptions between various players comes from the nebulous nature of wealth, loot and magic items in the existing game. There is constant tension between what the players think they should get (whether real or imagined) and what the dm wants to give out for either story or balance reasons. And yet this gear is a very neccessary part of character advancement and without it you start loading up on tpks. If characters need something to advance, they should get it with leveling not by picking someones pocket. A change to the system itself is really neccessary in my opinion.
There's a player in my group who has taken the art of looting to an art form. After defeating a dragon in combat, he was adamant he was going to skin the thing and sell its scales for colossal sums of gold. To this end, he utilised magical weapons to help in the skinning process, magical bags to store the scales, summoned creatures to help carry the bags and more. It was bonkers, and took up an entire playing session, but he was almost admirable in his single-minded determination to carry out this task.
I can help with this. I have and use the draconomicon to great effectivness every time we m,eet a dragon of any size or shape.
My group treats them just like you would rend down a deer or other game animal because even the young ones can net you 7000 gp for the hide, individual teeth, blood for elixers,potions, rare inks and etc.
Seriously the Draconomicon is the definiatve source for makeing the most money off of the beasts.
Unfortonate antagonism between party and dm.Its this sort of stuff that I want to avoid. The difference in perceptions between various players comes from the nebulous nature of wealth, loot and magic items in the existing game. There is constant tension between what the players think they should get (whether real or imagined) and what the dm wants to give out for either story or balance reasons. And yet this gear is a very neccessary part of character advancement and without it you start loading up on tpks. If characters need something to advance, they should get it with leveling not by picking someones pocket. A change to the system itself is really neccessary in my opinion.
Perhaphs your right but for now it's loot all you can and once a buddy/party member dies loot them too.
Perhaphs your right but for now it's loot all you can and once a buddy/party member dies loot them too.Unfortonate antagonism between party and dm.Its this sort of stuff that I want to avoid. The difference in perceptions between various players comes from the nebulous nature of wealth, loot and magic items in the existing game. There is constant tension between what the players think they should get (whether real or imagined) and what the dm wants to give out for either story or balance reasons. And yet this gear is a very neccessary part of character advancement and without it you start loading up on tpks. If characters need something to advance, they should get it with leveling not by picking someones pocket. A change to the system itself is really neccessary in my opinion.
I have thought about making a will for characters sometimes espicaily if they are lawful. The barbarian gets my magic sword...
I have thought about making a will for characters sometimes espicaily if they are lawful. The barbarian gets my magic sword...Perhaps your right but for now it's loot all you can and once a buddy/party member dies loot them too.Unfortunate antagonism between party and dm.Its this sort of stuff that I want to avoid. The difference in perceptions between various players comes from the nebulous nature of wealth, loot and magic items in the existing game. There is constant tension between what the players think they should get (whether real or imagined) and what the dm wants to give out for either story or balance reasons. And yet this gear is a very necessary part of character advancement and without it you start loading up on tpks. If characters need something to advance, they should get it with leveling not by picking someones pocket. A change to the system itself is really necessary in my opinion.
That's a good idea but I know my party wouldn't bother so whats the point. If yours would then by all means. the thing I try to do is set up a get outta death free card. I go to a temple that has the resources for a true resurrection and then pay for one in advance with a contingent message to let them know when I have died. cheesy but it works.
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Has anyone ever set up a game where looting the dead is Taboo? Say an Indian setting where only the unclean could touch the dead and if you come into contact with the dead you have to be ritualistically cleaned, perhaps even have an atonement done?
These can be fun, and speeds up encounters. PC's can still loot any treasure just sitting in the open, but are less likely to do so. They may hire "unclean" torch bearers to loot for them and then pay to have the loot cleansed. The other big thing to make this sort of game work is a patron who is filthy rich and willing to pay for adventures done, either for a story from a bard, or for having an area/region cleared of monsters.