As of right now I hate Kingmaker. I don't hate the story arc, I hate this overwhelmed feeling our party has. Let me explain. Since we started our campaign just about every fight seems to come to a point where the GM clearly is pulling punches as to not TPK us. The latest example was this abandoned castle in the south lands (I think we are on the 2nd module). As we approach we see an opening with a raised portcullis. We approach cautiously and perceive no alarm for concern so we proceed through the gate. It was trapped and came crashing down on our clerics bloody skeleton hydra. A failed save dealt 28pts of damage. Our monk scales the wall then gets attacked by a quickling(?) the next round and he quickly scales the wall again to get away. We then proceed to make our way around to the crumbled section of wall and go in. Party member attacked again, quickling goes in the tower. We follow. Monk and Paladin make it to second floor, are both dominates in sequential rounds. Rest of part is attacked on stairs by quickling and some other thing. Long story short. GM 'forgets' to use quickling right, it dies, no more flank for other monster to sneak attack. Monster that is dominating stays in combat. We barely survive the fight. I don't mind tough fights but every fight has been like this. My GM assures me he is running it by the AP. So far we have had 5 pc deaths and should have had a lot more if the GM wasn't pulling punches. We are looking for a troll lair in the south and I have a feeling we are going to die to a player and the adventure will end. We had problems killing 2 trolls by themselves. We have been back to our town and spent a lot of time building our kingdom but we are continually urged to find these trolls. I know Kingmaker is deadly but is it this deadly that it becomes tomb of horrors? Or is our GM leading us to death? I really want to enjoy this campaign because its my first as a PC in nearly 10 years but I find myself analyzing CR of fights instead of enjoying the adventure.
Our part is as follows:
Monk 5
Sorcerer 5
Paladin 5
Cleric 5
Ranger 5
Between us all we have a few magic items: Paladin +1 shield, Ranger +1 bow, Monk +1 mighty fist, cleric holy symbol, sorcerer eldrich bow. We have about 1900gp between us all and have picked up and sold everything we find. We all do have masterwork weapons and the best mundane items you can buy.
It sounds like you've been going from objective to objective. That is murder in this ap.
Explore everywhere. With a fine toothed comb, if possible. You're probably missing some phat lewt, and some extra exp. Your party is currently in no shape for those trolls.
stuff about KM being too difficult
Every post I have seen has said it was too easy, and when I ran it the player pretty much mudstomped any bad guy that was not a boss fight, and even 2 of them went down hard.
The quickling is touch. Luckily for my players I did not notice the stat block error until it was too late. Even with the correct stat blocks it would have gotten his butt kicked. It just would have taken longer though.
I did not even see that porticulis trap when I ran it. I guess I will have to use it for another AP to make up for it. :)
Trolls are not that hard to defeat. They are smiteable, and the sorcerer should be able to get rid of the regeneration they possess. If the spells known can't do it then I would get scrolls or alchemical items.
It sounds like you've been going from objective to objective. That is murder in this ap.
Explore everywhere. With a fine toothed comb, if possible. You're probably missing some phat lewt, and some extra exp. Your party is currently in no shape for those trolls.
We are actually exploring every hex as we move south. We have also done 80% of the side quest posted at Olegs. There has been no lewt that I would deem phat. The best item we found was a magical spear from an encounter at a river. Most of the items we find are mundane. I do know that we 'missed' a gold mine.(Our ranger spotted it but failed on the check to know what she was looking at. I'm not sure how you mistake a gold mine unless it was ore she spotted.) Our GM is a little opposed to us building up our town just to get magic items. As such he pushes us out of the town to adventure. I don't think we have ever received extra XP that was not a fight or an encounter in town like Gregori(?).
Our GM is a little opposed to us building up our town just to get magic items. As such he pushes us out of the town to adventure. I don't think we have ever received extra XP that was not a fight or an encounter in town like Gregori(?).
This may qualify as a Spoiler but the AP flat-out is designed for you to get a noticeable chunk of your xp from exploration & kingdom building. It sounds as though your DM may not be taking this into account. Unfortunately, I am dealing with a similar situation in the Kingmaker game I & my son have been playing in recently so not really sure what to recommend.
Hrm. The only other advise I can offer is to review your tactics then.
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I've recently finished running the book you are on. My players have had little trouble (though the encounter you described was a tough one which resulted in a PC death).
That said, talk to your GM about being more lenient with downtime and Kingdom building time. My players have been given free reign to do item creation when they have downtime, and it has helped keep the WBL curve about right.
Chief Technical Officer
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One thing to keep in mind is that sandbox adventures offer more possibilities for parties to confront things before they're really ready. GM and players both need to keep in mind that if the PCs get in over their heads in a battle, sometimes the best option is to retreat and come back later.
That said, my own party took on the encounter you describe at 5th level, and while it was certainly *very* challenging, we weren't out of our depth at that level.
In my humble opinion... Do you want an AP where all you have to do is roll a D20 and your opponent dies/whimpers/runs? Roleplaying is nothing if you don't at least have the fear of dieing, I believe to be true.
You want epic battles where you have to use your wits, your feats/spells and anything you have at your disposal to become VICTOR!!
Take it like a man, start thinking outside of the box, and be ready for the deadly s+*~! You know it's out there , you should be prepared. Discuss tactics in advance..
Besides, don't you think it's logical that from the hundreds of foes you lay, sometimes the odds are turned against you, and you lose a (wo)man?
You're exploring a very unknown and dangerous part of the world, and you're expecting a cake walk? Hell man, there are things out there that would stop your heart from beating if they but turned their gaze towards you -.-
Not really a spoiler, but... There are ever WORSE things out there than the things you have encountered so far ;)
(How lame would LOTR have been if there were only 20 orks.. Evah :P
Or none of the good guys were ever in any *real* danger)
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You have one extra player, but you seem a little low on gear.
The Keep with the quickling is challenging for 5th. Without spoiling there are some tactics described for the quickling et al that mean they don't necessarily work together.
5 PC deaths....well, in the game I'm running we are at a similar place to you. My guys (5 players) are at 6th Level with a lot more gear and I've notched up 2 deaths, and a very nearly. Some encounters have been tough, others have been a bit too easy. They have avoided certainly places knowing they are unpowered and have also run away a few times. No shame there. The players usually work well together. When they don't, or miss some clues on how the combat may play out, the combat is much harder for them. No complaints on the difficulty thus far.
You want epic battles where you have to use your wits, your feats/spells and anything you have at your disposal to become VICTOR!!
I have no problem with epic fights, but is every fight epic? It seems like every encounter ends up with the GM CLEARLY pulling punches. I can think of 3 encounters that were not epic. A spider in a hole, some wolf things in the plains and a wolf thing in some briars. Every other encounter had us clearly on the ropes early in the encounter. The worst encounter was at the lizard fort. My GM gave us the post from Oleg's and there was a Tig's post. So, being heroes we head off to find him. We were level 4 and ended up facing off against the lizard king and the will-o'-wisp. This was clearly a TPK. We could not flee since the lizard king intended to kill Tig. We also had no idea there was a will-o'-wisp or that the lizard king could eat our front line fighters for breakfast. The biggest thing is that the whole part is getting frustrated at our GM for railroading us into these encounters. After games we will talk and he assures me that he is running the AP as written.
I'm not expecting a cake walk but it would be nice to feel like we are powerful adventurers able to hold our own in the wilds of this unknown land. Just once we would like to face odds that look unfavorable and actually overcome them without help from the GM. If every encounter in Kingmaker is epic please let me know so we can move past this AP.
Did you guys not go into the basement of the stag lords fort or something?
You've got about 10,000 gold plus whatever the holy symbol and sorc bow are worth. In comparison, my players took out Kressle's camp, stag lord's fort, dealt with the kobolds and mites and finished the radish and returning the wedding ring quest. Selling everything that wasn't nailed down netted them about 22,000 gold. Which should be even higher for your group since you've explored more hexes by the sound of it.
In addition, you sunk a good chunk of your resources into the amulet of mighty fists which is a really overpriced item.
Your levels are correct for where you are now.
If you know you're going to be fighting trolls, you should consider stocking up on items to help fight trolls.
We went down into the cellar but the druid there was to much for us. We were already depleted of everything from the staglord fight which was another fight we had no business surviving (he shrugged off 2 hold person spells with a dc of 17 and outright killed our 2 melee PC's in sequential rounds). So we shut the trap door and burned the place down. After the fire died out we searched the ruins for a day and found nothing of value.
The amulet was a gift from the GM to the monk because it was this players 3rd character in three games. We really haven't had enough gold to buy any magic equipment. Most of our resources (which is not a lot) go to buying healing potions wand of cure light wounds alchemy fire and scrolls that are hopefully useful against the encounters we have.
It seems like you somehow keep getting into the difficult encounters before you're "ready" for them, level-wise. Rivers Run Red suggests the PCs should be "well into 5th level" before going to the Lizard King's Fort or to the abandoned keep with the Quickling, for instance, and the Troll Lair assumes 6th-level PCs.
But, several of these larger encounter areas (including all of the ones you've mentioned as having been difficult) are made to be pretty tough, since Kingmaker otherwise assumes that parties have no more than one or two encounters per day while exploring hexes.
The foreword of Rivers Run Red is titled "No Need to Rush", and clearly states that the adventures in the AP benefit from long breaks from adventuring, and that a good way to run it is to let the PCs take control of the pacing. It seems that your DM isn't interested in this particular method, but that's quite possibly a reason why you feel this way about the AP so far.
Are you guys getting random encounters as you go? The adventure has a number of prewritten encounters, but you're also suppose to get random encounters as well.
In my game, I stopped rolling for random encounters, I just give the players one every few hexes. My players first became aware of the troll problem by meeting a small group while exploring. Most of those I run are at a lower encounter level than the group is so that way the big fights really stand out.
Also, have you tried asking your GM for some intown encounters as well? Couple people try to start a thieves guild and steal stuff, kobold accidentally hatching four owlbear eggs in their lair and they need the player's help to get their home back, kendars pass through, that kind of thing. Talk to the GM. The adventure assumes more encounters than what is written, maybe he's not putting those encounters in.
It's your GM, and he's not posting here that I know of, so it's tough to say what, precisely, is going on. Be that as it may, I can think of more than one item that you should have by now (if you've explored every hex) that is above the power level you listed. Also, as has been mentioned, taking time to build up a kingdom, explore hexes, and run into random encounters offers XP.
Without sitting at the table or getting all detailed, it's hard to judge what the problem is, exactly, but the AP is NOT "epic". Some fights are tougher than others, and PCs can get in WAY over their heads--such is the nature of a "sandbox" game like this.
My players, for example. Some Big Boss fights they've walked through (I've a couple experienced Pathfinders at my table). Other fights have been a struggle when I wouldn't have thought it would be. So, there could be a number of factors contributing to your difficulty.
I'll end with my players' take on the Lizardmen quest: The druid scoped out the area and spotted the kid; most of the party approached the front and started a conversation/fight, two went around to the side where the kid had been spotted, crept over the wall, and stole him back. When the Wisp came out, the party retreated.
Overall, I wouldn't say the AP is super tough. It can be, at times, but overall it's written according to the CR guidelines outlined in the CRB. Of course, sometimes, dice happen... ;)
Thanks for all the advise. I plan on talking to my GM about some things. I guess kingmaker is a difficult AP (because of the sandbox design) but I really don't want to remember it by the number of characters we had to make but for the story we helped create.
This experience is good for me since I typically GM. It helps me keep in mind game balance as it applies to challenges & PC's.
And yes, at least one encounter (the large plant & rattle caps) dice happened.
I'm in the 4th book now but I have to say the toughest fight by far was that Elven Ruins with Quickly and other fey. It was just to easy for the players to end up fighting all the fey at the same time. Sounds like that's what happened with you when the Quickling entered the tower.
As well this encounter is nasty if you come to it too early. It was hard enough at 5th level but being 4th would be deadly. While at 6th it would be much easier.
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Did you guys not go into the basement of the stag lords fort or something?
You've got about 10,000 gold plus whatever the holy symbol and sorc bow are worth. In comparison, my players took out Kressle's camp, stag lord's fort, dealt with the kobolds and mites and finished the radish and returning the wedding ring quest. Selling everything that wasn't nailed down netted them about 22,000 gold. Which should be even higher for your group since you've explored more hexes by the sound of it.
In addition, you sunk a good chunk of your resources into the amulet of mighty fists which is a really overpriced item.
Your levels are correct for where you are now.
If you know you're going to be fighting trolls, you should consider stocking up on items to help fight trolls.
We went down into the cellar but the druid there was to much for us. We were already depleted of everything from the staglord fight which was another fight we had no business surviving (he shrugged off 2 hold person spells with a dc of 17 and outright killed our 2 melee PC's in sequential rounds). So we shut the trap door and burned the place down. After the fire died out we searched the ruins for a day and found nothing of value.
The amulet was a gift from the GM to the monk because it was this players 3rd character in three games. We really haven't had enough gold to buy any magic equipment. Most of our resources (which is not a lot) go to buying healing potions wand of cure light wounds alchemy fire and scrolls that are hopefully useful against the encounters we have.
You already said you are going to, but I'm going to say again, talk to your DM.
Its seems that in some cases he withheld items to the party. Example is the the Stag Lord's fort, but that one could be due to you all "burning" the place down and therefore the magic items go along with it.
My party faced a bit of a challenge as well at the quickling tower, but even so, my party has way more gear then yours. Each of us have at least a +1 weapon and most of us have +1 armors as well. In fact some items like +1 leather armors are so common that we have to sell at least 2.
Your party is seriously under equip.
Also you stated that you have party deaths? So are the new characters entering the game with level appropriate among of Gear?
You guys do sound like you're severely underequipped for your level. Talk to your GM about that - the Stag Lord's fort was supposed to bring you guys up to 4th - 5th level equipment, and if he just shrugged and said "you don't find any items", then he's definitely boning you big time.
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You guys do sound like you're severely underequipped for your level. Talk to your GM about that - the Stag Lord's fort was supposed to bring you guys up to 4th - 5th level equipment, and if he just shrugged and said "you don't find any items", then he's definitely boning you big time.
They burnt it down. Still, there was a bunch of stuff down there that was not exactly flammable...
What happened to the gear the Stag Lord and his minions had?
R.
I can think of 3 encounters that were not epic. A spider in a hole, some wolf things in the plains and a wolf thing in some briars. Every other encounter had us clearly on the ropes early in the encounter.
Our group mostly got our asses handed to us by random encounters, animals, plants, funghi, things we didn´t expect and weren´t prepared for. Tactics, Tactics, Tactics. Tight formation, assigned targets and don´t be stingy with potions and spells.;)
Also, the DM seems to go for gritty and shows you how poor the River Kingdoms are and why the Stolen Lands are the worst part o´them all. Ask him.
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We went down into the cellar but the druid there was to much for us. We were already depleted of everything from the staglord fight which was another fight we had no business surviving (he shrugged off 2 hold person spells with a dc of 17 and outright killed our 2 melee PC's in sequential rounds). So we shut the trap door and burned the place down. After the fire died out we searched the ruins for a day and found nothing of value.
My players heard rumors about something in the cellar so after the Stag Lord fight (it was tough for them) they made sure to lock the cellar door, rested with a watch and went down refreshed. They did not have a problem with it.
Take Craft Wondrous Item? It's not like you don't have a s%*% ton of downtime to craft.
Bring some henchmen bodyguards, maybe a few guard dogs. They give your life so that you don't lose yours in the surprise round. It's like summoning without spending an action.
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My players first became aware of the troll problem by meeting a small group while exploring.
Mine ran into a randomly encountered group early on, max roll on number encountered, and promptly retreated thanks to good weather and rolling hills letting them spot at max distance.
When they got home they picked up on a rumor of increased troll activity, immediately associated it with the mob of howling, bloodthirsty trolls they ran from earlier on, and stubbornly ignore all pleas for help even as it causes unrest.
So far, so good. :)
As of right now I hate Kingmaker. I don't hate the story arc, I hate this overwhelmed feeling our party has. Let me explain. Since we started our campaign just about every fight seems to come to a point where the GM clearly is pulling punches as to not TPK us. The latest example was this abandoned castle in the south lands (I think we are on the 2nd module). As we approach we see an opening with a raised portcullis. We approach cautiously and perceive no alarm for concern so we proceed through the gate. It was trapped and came crashing down on our clerics bloody skeleton hydra. A failed save dealt 28pts of damage. Our monk scales the wall then gets attacked by a quickling(?) the next round and he quickly scales the wall again to get away. We then proceed to make our way around to the crumbled section of wall and go in. Party member attacked again, quickling goes in the tower. We follow. Monk and Paladin make it to second floor, are both dominates in sequential rounds. Rest of part is attacked on stairs by quickling and some other thing. Long story short. GM 'forgets' to use quickling right, it dies, no more flank for other monster to sneak attack. Monster that is dominating stays in combat. We barely survive the fight. I don't mind tough fights but every fight has been like this. My GM assures me he is running it by the AP. So far we have had 5 pc deaths and should have had a lot more if the GM wasn't pulling punches. We are looking for a troll lair in the south and I have a feeling we are going to die to a player and the adventure will end. We had problems killing 2 trolls by themselves. We have been back to our town and spent a lot of time building our kingdom but we are continually urged to find these trolls. I know Kingmaker is deadly but is it this deadly that it becomes tomb of horrors? Or is our GM leading us to death? I really want to enjoy this campaign because its my first as a PC in nearly 10 years but I find myself analyzing CR of fights instead of enjoying the adventure.
Our part is...
The encounter you're describing was tough for my group too. However what you guys did was combine 2 or maybe 3 encounters into one. The quickling should be one encounter by himself. The woman on the second level was our toughest encounter by far, she dominated our healer and several others before our ranged fighter killed her off. The rest of it has been rather easy for our group so far.
Cavalier 8 (me)
Witch 8
Oracle 8
Sorcerer 8
Fighter 6/Wizard 1/Arcane archer 1
I suggesting doing a little more structure work to the story of the AP so that the players have the plot locations broken up by more wilderness exploration. For example, I guarantee that if I had run C3 by the book, the players would have went straight from the major location, to the minor, and to the major location. And probably died.
I've inserted some, ah, 'intermediary steps' to maintain things and it's worked pretty well.
I've inserted some, ah, 'intermediary steps' to maintain things and it's worked pretty well.
Would you mind sharing those steps Troubleshooter? I'm preparing to run Kingmaker once we finsh the current campaign, and I'd like to know what other people have done. I'm currently reviewing the same section of the AP, and I foresee simular problems.
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I've inserted some, ah, 'intermediary steps' to maintain things and it's worked pretty well.Would you mind sharing those steps Troubleshooter? I'm preparing to run Kingmaker once we finsh the current campaign, and I'd like to know what other people have done. I'm currently reviewing the same section of the AP, and I foresee simular problems.
Should probably move this to another thread. Spoilers are likely. I'm happy to contribute.
We haven't gotten very far in the exploration (as my party has opted to do a lot of kingdom building first), but at least in a couple of the random encounters that I have thrown at them, my party has had no issues. I don't think my party is very minmaxed but at level 6 they plowed through a group of 4 trolls without blinking.
Party composition is cleric/rogue/barbarian/druid, all level 6.
Charm domain cleric casts suggestion and tells one of the trolls that his friends are planning on betraying him and his only chance to survive is to help these nice strangers kill them first (they're not known for their will saves)
Druid casts bull's strength on barbarian
Barbarian charges swinging at +16, so only rolling for 1's (6BAB+7str[rage]+2bull's+1mw+2charge-2poweratk), with 2d6+19 (9*1.5str+6poweratk) dmg.
Rogue sneak attacks same troll (flatfooted since hasn't acted) one of the trolls
3 Trolls unload on the invulnerable rager barbarian for a total damage of ~30
1 Troll attacks friends
Round 2
Charm domain cleric casts charm person on one of the trolls not being attacked (will save at +8 due to combat) - troll still fails the DC 18 save (10+1st+6wis+1feat) and stops fighting, suddenly caught in a dispute between friends -> cleric free action yells to him to attack his friends -> fails charisma check
Druid casts flaming sphere to start melting down troll corpses
Druid companion leaps on one of the other trolls
Barbarian drops troll (2 attacks, +14/+9 for 2d6+19)
Rogue sneak attacks other uncharmed troll (stag lord mask)
1 Troll attacks barbarian
1 Troll attacks friends
1 Troll stands around confused
Fight is pretty much over as the uncharmed troll gets dropped without a problem next turn and the suggestion'd troll gets attacked and murdered as his spell wears off. The charmed troll is interrogated and told to run home and never come back.
I'm looking forward to some real challenging encounters, but so far everything in this book has been a pushover. My suggestion would be to talk to your group about tactics and maybe throw some extra gear at them. Mine are badly undergeared since they have been sitting around, getting levels from kingdom building and quests (I keep them on fast track, so maybe they're leveling a bit too fast anyway). They also have missed several treasure caches. I think there is only 1 magical weapon and 1 magical armor in the party and that's it for magic.
I don't think my party is very minmaxed but at level 6 they plowed through a group of 4 trolls without blinking.
Fight details for anyone who cares:
Good tactics. And a bit of luck.
It Lives!!!!!! Mwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!
Gotta love necro'ed threads.
My take on this is it looks like a more old school style of play is needed (AAAGGGHHH!! lots of scary monsters! RUN!!!). Saw a lot of "we can't retreat because it would be dishonorable" and stuff like that. Being a hero at the wrong time can get you killed.
Of course, I've got someone at my own table who's response to everything so far is to attack head-on. *facepalm*
Probably not worth too much now, 3 years after the fact, but there's my two cents.