Sap Master / adept interaction


Rules Questions

51 to 78 of 78 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Black_Lantern wrote:
prototype00 is the one of the first people to pitch the sap mastery rogue. It's the only type of rogue I'll ever consider of playing as well.

Well, I really was just reposting ideas from the original sap mastery thread in the form of a build. So I can claim no credit here.

prototype00


Sorry that I'm a little late to this discussion; I have a player who wants to make a 5th level Rogue (Scout). He's thinking of going Dwarf, with the Bludgeoner, Sap Adept/Master feats. He's thinking of doing the sort of stuff with his Rogue where he charges each round (and taking Charging Hurler as a feat) so he only moves 10 feat, throws the hammer, gets his sneak attack, doubles it, etc. in nonlethal damage.

Calculating it out, it's about ~30 damage once per round, every round, every fight. I wonder if this has been errated, because it seems rather powerful, compared to what other classes might do. If it hasn't been errated, is there something I'm missing? Or any suggestions?


If he is throwing into melee, he is taking penalties unless he has precise shot. I've done a build with sap master/sap adept before and it's quite tight on the feats, so he might not have it?

prototype00


Not all enemies are subject to nonlethal damage, 30 points of damage is not that hard at level 5.
Eventually he will run out of hammers also. Monsters also have DR by this time so that is more damage he is not doing. Be sure to enforce the rules for ranged attacks also. Those penalties, and bonus to AC due to cover are not fun to deal with.
If he is in throwing range with a hammer he might also be in ranged to be charged by the monster. Grapple him and tie him in knot. :)


Thanks for the replies folks,

He doesn't have Precise Shot, and we've factored that in. Still, he'll be hitting at least half the time, with Dex bonuses, magic weapons, etc.

It's true that not all enemies are subject to nonlethal, but most of them are. I mean sure, when they get to the small undead part of the adventure (Red Hand of Doom), he won't be as effective, but for the rest, he won't have a problem.

As for running out of hammers, he wants a Returning Hammer (a +1 bonus) and at 5th level, that's not outside of the realm of possibility, so that solves the ammo problem.

The grapple idea is a good one, and one that the module recommends later on in the adventure when the monsters know of the PCs.

It just seems overpowered to me, because take a 5th level Wizard for example. Sure, they'll have a few Fireballs at that level, which would do approx. the same damage, but they're limited by how many times per day they can do that. This PC can do ~30 (and that's the mid-range, not the max damage) every round without fail. All he has to do is hit. That will almost take out most of the normal monsters in one hit; especially when combined with the efforts of the other PCs at the table.

Sure, there are things I can do to make life harder for him, but that takes the game into a "me vs. him" mentality, and I want to avoid that.

I figure I'm going to just not allow the Sap Master feat; that solves all the problems. I've considered lots of other things, but they over-complicate the situation more than it needs to be.

Essentially, Sap Master is a feat that allows the Rogue to double his sneak attack damage. Whether it's nonlethal or not is irrelevant; a creature knocked out is just the same as dead for the end result. And in fact, it's more advantageous for the PCs, because they have the option to easily capture/question an unconscious enemy.

Again, thanks for the replies; I was hoping that maybe there was some errata or something that fixed this, but it doesn't look like it.


Maddigan wrote:

I really find it annoying the put this cheesy combination in the game. My friend is building a character that is going to be punching out dragons and demons for non-lethal damage for obscene amounts of nonlethal damage with the whole Sap Adept/Master, Enforcer, Shatter Defenses feat line. He's basically going to hit a dragon, make his Intimidation check, and leave the thing shaken for 30 plus rounds, then do 16d16+32 damage per attack for four or five attacks per round. He might even pick Medusa's Wrath to up the number of attacks.

It's pure cheese. But all legal by RAW because the game designers often fail to think out the possible combinations that lead to this kind of cheese. By RAW causing someone to be Shaken by Intimidate isn't even a mind-effecting effect, so they can use it against creatures immune to mind-effecting effects. I really hope Buhlman or one of the Paizo rule guys tamps down on the cheese before I'm arguing with a player over him knocking out a dragon with nonlethal damage that is much more effective than people using lethal damage.

You have no idea mechanically how this stacks up against other combatants. First look at the things immune to non lethal damage, the requirements for sneak attack, and the rogues 3/4 bab. You probably don't know what a sap is supposed to do in real life anyways. So tell me how is this combination cheese?


Sap Master/adept gives 55 Damage per attack at Level 20 at best.Figuring in that Rouges are not the "Damage Bombers" normally ,and that they need a flatfooted opponent,and that its nonlethal damage, and that you need to actually hit with the attack......I don´t think its that gamebreaking.


Not sure where you're getting your math from Sleet; I come up with an average of 94 damage at level 20. That's average, not minimum and certainly not max. And it doesn't account for any magic weapon, just a d8 weapon, plus sneak attack, plus the bonus from sap adept.

Just to take the math further, the minimum would be 41 damage, and the max would be 148. Again, with a d8 weapon, and no magic enhancements (or other feats, for that matter).

They do need a flat-footed opponent; this is easily overcome with the Scout archetype, which means if the rogue makes a charge, they can apply their sneak attack damage as though the target were flat-footed. Considering a charge means a minimum of 10 feet movement closer to the target, combine this with Charging Hurler, and you can have a character that move 10 feet closer to his enemy, throws a hammer, and gets his sneak attack damage, as long as he is within 30'. Add in Bludgeoner, and this allows the rogue to use his hammer to deal nonlethal damage without the penalty to attack.

Does this help you to see where I have a problem with it?

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mortavius wrote:


As for running out of hammers, he wants a Returning Hammer (a +1 bonus) and at 5th level, that's not outside of the realm of possibility, so that solves the ammo problem.

That is actually a +2 hammer. It has to be a +1 hammer before they can add the returning power to it. So, that hammer would have an 8000 GP base cost (4000 GP to craft) plus the price of the masterwork hammer. This is out of a 5th level characters 10500gp average wealth per level.

Also, what other weapon on they going to use, as the returning hammer does not return to them until right before their next turn. Unless they have something else in hand, they are unarmed when dealing with AoO, etc until their next turn.


Mortavius wrote:


It just seems overpowered to me, because take a 5th level Wizard for example. Sure, they'll have a few Fireballs at that level, which would do approx. the same damage, but they're limited by how many times per day they can do that. This PC can do ~30 (and that's the mid-range, not the max damage) every round without fail. All he has to do is hit. That will almost take out most of the normal monsters in one hit; especially when combined with the efforts of the other PCs at the table.

Wizards are not built to do damage. You should be comparing him to other classes built to do damage.

Quote:


Sure, there are things I can do to make life harder for him, but that takes the game into a "me vs. him" mentality, and I want to avoid that.

Only if you do it for every combat. Most of the time it just takes tactics and that should not be faulted. Now if things that dont take nonlethal damage show up too much then that might be an issue.

He might just go barbarian and do the same damage. That is why I said damage is not the issue. If he wants to do 30 points of damage there are many ways to do so.


Mortavius wrote:

Not sure where you're getting your math from Sleet; I come up with an average of 94 damage at level 20. That's average, not minimum and certainly not max. And it doesn't account for any magic weapon, just a d8 weapon, plus sneak attack, plus the bonus from sap adept.

Just to take the math further, the minimum would be 41 damage, and the max would be 148. Again, with a d8 weapon, and no magic enhancements (or other feats, for that matter).

They do need a flat-footed opponent; this is easily overcome with the Scout archetype, which means if the rogue makes a charge, they can apply their sneak attack damage as though the target were flat-footed. Considering a charge means a minimum of 10 feet movement closer to the target, combine this with Charging Hurler, and you can have a character that move 10 feet closer to his enemy, throws a hammer, and gets his sneak attack damage, as long as he is within 30'. Add in Bludgeoner, and this allows the rogue to use his hammer to deal nonlethal damage without the penalty to attack.

Does this help you to see where I have a problem with it?

I just calculated the bonus damage from sap adept and sap master and thats 10d6+20 average.If you roll 10d6´s you will inevitably end up with something very close to the average when you add all rolls togheter.So getting max damage on all rolls is very unlikely unless you have the underhanded talent.


Sleet, Sap Master lets you roll your sneak attack damage *twice* and add it together. So it's really 20d6+20. If you go with an average of 3.5 per d6, you get my numbers above.

Kind of funny Wraith, I always think of wizards as DPS. Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, etc. Not arguing with you; I totally understand where you're coming from, just a different perspective.


You don´t get it, I´m talking abaout the BONUS damage from sap master.You can´t add the damage you would get anyway from using sneak attack and sap adept.


A wizard has better things to do than hurt people. Those AoE's might work on mooks, but on monsters with a lot of HP the fighter and barbarian are scarier.

I can cast fireball and the monster will only be upset or I can haste the party, and watch the fighter and others take him down due to the extra attack.


Ahh, I understand Sleet. I wasn't looking at it that way, since I'm not concerned with the extra damage; what matters to me is the whole thing. I'm aware that he will be doing a certain amount regardless of the feat, but monster HP totals don't care about what's regular and what's bonus.


Hello,

some corrections to previous posts:

@DarthEnder

Quote:

Also, Sap Master says it has to be a BLUDGEONING nonlethal weapon.

So I don't see how it can be used with a gun...

EDIT: Nm, I see all the guns are listed as "B and P" so I'm guessing there's some kind of blunt ammo type.

This is not completely correct.

The original text of Sap Adept and Sap Master says:

Quote:
Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage,...

and

Quote:
Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage: You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

So if you accept -4 to do nonlethal damage with a 'normal' bludgeoning you can do the extra damage. Though ranged weapons are not possible as you mentioned right.

@serveral others

Quote:
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC...

Several of you argued that only flat-footed opponents can be sneak attacked. As you can read above this is not true. To be flat-footed is ONE of the conditions when you are denied of your Dextery Bonus to AC. To be stunned is another condition applies.

@Sleet Storm and Mortavisu
If i understand the Sap Adept and Sap Master combo right, a 20th level rogue with those feats would do 20d6 + 40 points of nonlethal damage additionaly to any weapon damage if the Sneak Attack is successful.


Harger is right except for the Range Part, You forget there are blunt tipped arrows in the game, which allow for nonlethal Damage... Now what makes range even more broken if you give them sniper Goggles, Now you are doing 20d6+80 HAHAHAHA. Within 30 feet of course.

Also Flat footed is not a condition of losing your Dex, Because Uncanny Dodge voids the effects of losing your dex while flat footed. IF a skill specificaly says you lose your dex, then Sap feats can not be used. If they state This makes you flat footed, then the Sap feats can be used.

Also with some feats that say when you do damage you, you can not use the Sap Feats because they require actual damage, at least that is how I would rule it. they are specific on how it is worded.

At least this is my take on it.

Dark Archive

Hargor wrote:

The original text of Sap Adept and Sap Master says:

Quote:

Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage,...

and
Quote:

Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage: You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

So if you accept -4 to do nonlethal damage with a 'normal' bludgeoning you can do the extra damage. Though ranged weapons are not possible as you mentioned right.

Does the sap master change this line from Sneak attack?

Quote:
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.


Sap master doesn't. Bludgeoner does.

Dark Archive

Archaeik wrote:
Sap master doesn't. Bludgeoner does.

Thanks, I missed that.


DarthEnder wrote:

Also, Sap Master says it has to be a BLUDGEONING nonlethal weapon.

So I don't see how it can be used with a gun...

EDIT: Nm, I see all the guns are listed as "B and P" so I'm guessing there's some kind of blunt ammo type.

A gun cannot be use by the bludgeoning feat the weapon damage type is B and P not B or P as noted in the firearms chart

Ultimate combat page 138 wrote:

A weapon with two types is either type (wielder’s choice) if the entry specifies “or.”

A weapon with two types is both types if the entry specifies “and.”

A firearm is both bludgeoning and Piercing therefore not subject to the bludgeoning feat.


Mmmmmm, cheese.


Interesting. I have a fifth level sap master ninja and I've been calculating only the 3d6 and not it as being 6d6.

This is what I hit last game. Cabin full of Viking. Witch in the arms of Leader. My target, her. I don't actually have vanish so the magus gave me invisibility, extended it via a wand. Also the summoner hasted the group before I entered also extended via the same wand. I snuck in with a 40+ stealth roll and positioned myself behind the witch and waited for the ambush signal. Signal established. Three of my four attacks hit, burned a Ki Point.

1d4 Unarmed
3d6 sneak attack
+3 Sap Adept
+6 Sap Master
3d6 second roll
+1 Emulate
+4 Strength

x 3 I rolled 110 Non Lethal Damage. So in actual fact it should have been an additional 18 points of damage?


Snapshot wrote:
DarthEnder wrote:

Also, Sap Master says it has to be a BLUDGEONING nonlethal weapon.

So I don't see how it can be used with a gun...

EDIT: Nm, I see all the guns are listed as "B and P" so I'm guessing there's some kind of blunt ammo type.

A gun cannot be use by the bludgeoning feat the weapon damage type is B and P not B or P as noted in the firearms chart

Ultimate combat page 138 wrote:

A weapon with two types is either type (wielder’s choice) if the entry specifies “or.”

A weapon with two types is both types if the entry specifies “and.”

A firearm is both bludgeoning and Piercing therefore not subject to the bludgeoning feat.

It doesn't even matter what damage type it is. You can only convert lethal to non-lethal damage when using a melee weapon.

Blunt Arrows being a specific exception.


Happler wrote:

Does the sap master change this line from Sneak attack?

Quote:
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.

Putting Merciful on your weapons would take care of this issue and give you an extra d6.

Also, just as a reminder, only Sap Master requires both a bludgeoning weapon dealing non-lethal damage and a flat-footed target, Sap Adept just has the bludgeoning weapon dealing non-lethal damage requirement. Flat-footed isn't required for Sap Adept.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Cheese time, because cheese is delicious.

Human Ninja (scout).
Traits: Reactionary, Bully

feat Sap Adept, feat Intimidating Prowess, Ninja Trick Offensive Defense, Feat sap master, ninja trick weapon focus (unarmed strike), Feat Enforcer, Ninja trick Combat Trick Shatter Defenses

1Feat (Human) Sap Adept, Feat Enforcer
2Ninja Trick Combat Training(Improved Unarmed Strike)
3Feat Weapon Focus
4Ninja Trick (Finesse Rogue)
5Feat Sap Master
6Ninja Trick Offensive Defense
7Feat Dazzling Display
8 Ninja Trick Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
9Feat Two-weapon Fighting
10 Advanced Trick Crippling Strike
11 Feat Improved Two-weapon fighting
12 Advanced Trick Vanishing
13 Feat Knockout Artist
14 Advanced Trick Improved Vanishing
15 Feat Gorgon's Fist
16 Advanced Trick (Feat Shadow Strike)
17 Feat Scorpion Style

Start alchemist(vivisectionist) levels
18
19 Feat Medusa's Wrath, Discovery Feral Mutagen
20

You've got a scout charge that gives you a high bonus to your ac, making it much MUCH less dangerous to risk a full attack. Of course, if you miss you'll probably not pop up very high on the threat meter (sans metagaming of course).

By the end, you've got three attacks from your main hand, two attacks from your off hand, two attacks from medusa's wrath, two claw attacks, a bite attack, and an attack from your ki pool for eleven attacks.

I should note here that you're probably making all your normal attacks with knees and an amulet of mighty fists enchanted with agile for that extra bang. You get normal sneak attack progression the whole way through, and a bunch of things that add goodies to your damage.

Depending on your dm, offensive defense will either make your ac stupidly high, or REALLY stupidly high.

At 20th level, you'll be dealing 1d3 with your unarmed strike, with 10d6 sneak attack damage. Sap master rolls it up to 20d6 sneak attack. Depending on how you read sap adept, you're either dealing a bonus 20 or 40 damage.
Knockout artist is worth another 20 or 40 points, depending on the wording. Each sneak attack deals two str damage.

20d6 is worth an average of 70 damage. So each attack is looking at an average damage range of 110 to 150 depending on your interpretation of the feats.
Most of the time, you'll be making just 8 attacks, so you'll have the opportunity to deal anywhere from 880 damage to 1200 damage on a full attack.

Toss in that mutagen, and you're looking at an expanded range of 1210 to 1650 damage.
This is before you factor in bonuses to hit.

Against anything immune to nonlethal damage, you're stuck dealing 1d3+10d6, or just 1d3 if it's immune to sneak attack damage as well. It's really an all or nothing build. Either you devastate your enemy, or your enemy devastates you.

Toss in some variety amulets of mighty fists for fun and profit. One with brilliant energy could be useful much of the time... if somewhat odd, at least for when hitting is an issue. Sub out with the agile +4 version if you're facing something you can't hit with brilliant body parts.

The agile enchant itself will probably be worth 13ish damage per hit at level 20. So I guess the real maximum range is closer to 1793.

You'll notice that some of the feats are... perhaps not the best optimized. I ran out of abilities to stack with the unarmed damage, so I just popped in filler here and there. Improve away if you can.

As a side note, possibly dealing 22 strength damage each round is just fun.


I take your cheese, and I raise you a double barreled pistol used in every attack.
Chääsfondue for everyone.


Fastmover wrote:

Interesting. I have a fifth level sap master ninja and I've been calculating only the 3d6 and not it as being 6d6.

This is what I hit last game. Cabin full of Viking. Witch in the arms of Leader. My target, her. I don't actually have vanish so the magus gave me invisibility, extended it via a wand. Also the summoner hasted the group before I entered also extended via the same wand. I snuck in with a 40+ stealth roll and positioned myself behind the witch and waited for the ambush signal. Signal established. Three of my four attacks hit, burned a Ki Point.

1d4 Unarmed
3d6 sneak attack
+3 Sap Adept
+6 Sap Master
3d6 second roll
+1 Emulate
+4 Strength

x 3 I rolled 110 Non Lethal Damage. So in actual fact it should have been an additional 18 points of damage?

No, I think you were right the first time. Also I think you meant that first +3 to be from knockout artist. Anyway, sap master doesn't double the bonus from sap adept or knockout artist because it doesn't actual add any sn. attack dice. It is worded to avoid that stacking effect. It is still a pretty devastating combo though.

Also, not I don't think you can burn a ki point for an extra attack while you are hasted... let me check... well, haste does say that similar effects don't stack. So, I don't think you can actually use the ki point for an extra attack with the haste.

One more point, after your first attack, you are no longer invisible, so you wouldn't get the additional 3d6 damage from the second roll as your target is no longer flat-footed.

51 to 78 of 78 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Sap Master / adept interaction All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.