Aura of Menace (Su) A righteous aura surrounds archons that fight or get angry. Any hostile creature within a 20-foot radius of an archon must succeed on a Will save to resist its effects. The save DC varies with the type of archon, is Charisma-based, and includes a +2 racial bonus. Those who fail take a –2 penalty on attacks, AC, and saves for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the archon that generated the aura. A creature that has resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by the same archon's aura for 24 hours.
Darkvision 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
Immunity to bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Not subject to nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength), as well as to exhaustion and fatigue effects.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature's Intelligence score.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but is immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
I've been summoning Lantern Archons as a cleric. My DM and I believe the aura of menace is worded rather vaguely. RAW it seems to be able to affect undead, constructs, heck even plants! Is this also the RAI? Any help would be appreciated.
Why wouldn't it?
Which has been my stance. My DM is having a hard time with the notion that an aura of "menace" (which implies intimidation) could affect constructs/undead. The description should say it all, but often Paizo expects us to be intuitive, not rules lawyery.
It's the only reason why I've posed the question.
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Which has been my stance. My DM is having a hard time with the notion that an aura of "menace" (which implies intimidation) could affect constructs/undead. The description should say it all, but often Paizo expects us to be intuitive, not rules lawyery.
It's the only reason why I've posed the question.
I agree with you that it's vague. There really should be a line in there to the tune of: "This is a fear effect.", or at least "This is a mind-affecting effect."
However, maybe we're undervaluing this ability: possibly, Archons are so awesome, they really CAN affect constructs and undead with this ability.
It's pretty much just up to your DM :)
WELL... That maybe depends on your group cohesion, and possibly your own personal sanity...
Any hostile creature within a 20-foot radius of an archon must succeed on a Will save to resist its effects. [/B];-)
We took hostile as meaning anyone acting aggressively towards the archon, but you make a valid point. Even allies would be affected RAW. Also, it stacks with itself since it's an unnamed penalty.
I don't think it's unreasonable to request some clarification.
To me it's completely clear; it only becomes unclear if you try to make something out of the fluffy parts of the description, e.g. the name. If you just go by what the ability does, enemies close enough make a Will save or get the penalties -- I don't think this could be less ambiguous, honestly.
If it was a fear effect, it would say it was a fear effect; that it doesn't say whether it is or not means it's not. I mean, we don't ask ourselves whether fireball is a fear effect or not, right? It doesn't say anything about being one so it isn't one.
Also, it stacks with itself since it's an unnamed penalty.
Bonus typing is an ADDITIONAL rule re: stacking.
In general, IDENTICAL effects don´t stack unless specified.Reading ´hostile creatures´ to mean ´hostile towards you/your allies´ is pretty standard usage of English in this context. Using ´enemies´ WOULD remove all ambiguity AND be in-line with how the rules are worded else-where in the game, though...
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To me it's completely clear; it only becomes unclear if you try to make something out of the fluffy parts of the description, e.g. the name. If you just go by what the ability does, enemies close enough make a Will save or get the penalties -- I don't think this could be less ambiguous, honestly.
If it was a fear effect, it would say it was a fear effect; that it doesn't say whether it is or not means it's not. I mean, we don't ask ourselves whether fireball is a fear effect or not, right? It doesn't say anything about being one so it isn't one.
Pretty much this. It's a supernatural ability of divine power. It's an aura that literally weakens anything opposing to the divine will of the archon. It's not a fear effect, it's not a mind-influencing effect, so it works on Constructs and Undead.
They have will saving throws for something, you know.
As the GM in the OP's question, I'd like to point out (and remind) that talking with Hexcaliber, I did come to understand the concept of the Aura of Menace as a sort of Battle Aura (though I keep thinking of it in kind of Dragonball Z terms.)
I can see it affecting undead and constructs if I understand it as being a sort of psychic or spiritual weight that literally permeates space rather than just afflicting the mind.
What I currently have a problem with is the idea that it stacks with other auras of menace.
For one thing, in general, penalties and bonuses are not supposed to stack unless they're different types. I feel like the lack of a type signifier is kind of an oversight.
For another, it's potentially overwhelmingly good against combat monsters with low will saves, especially since undoing the effect is keyed to hitting the archon; not damaging it or the archon dying. Four archons can give up to -8 to everything, and attacks against them are just attacking summons rather than the threatening party members that won't vanish after x number of rounds. And if the archon is destroyed or eliminated by any method other than being hit by an attack roll, its effects can't be removed for 24 hours by anything... partly because it isn't anything, a morale penalty, a fear effect, or anything that there's a counter for which to remove things. Beyond that, I'd really hate to keep track of the different potential or actual sources of -2 penalties if enough Archons interacted with enough foes.
For a third, it hurts my sense of verisimilitude because I don't know what kind of army stands up against a full army of soldier-type Archons (not just a few Lantern Archons.) Theoretically, they fight the forces of Devils, Demons, and Daemons all the time... but large amounts of Archons pretty much neuter foot soldiers like Dretch (Will +3) or Vrock (Will +6.)
The above are all about where things break down for me.
Lantern Archon>All Golems!
It doesn't. Bonuses and penalties from the same source don't stack unless explicitly stated otherwise. Aura of Menace is the source of the penalty; it doesn't matter that it's the aura of different creatures.
QFT
In general, if a bonus or penalty is not typed, you can 'type' it as the cause of effect. In this case, consider it an "Aura of Menace penalty." Thus, it wouldn't stack with other "Aura of Menace penalties."
Consider say a Hill Giant that gets attacked by a wizard and a sorcerer. Both casters cast Ray of Enfeeblement against the giant. Both spells will take effect, but the penalties will overlap and not stack, as the penalties are both "Ray of Enfeeblement penalties."
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Even if it was a mind-affecting or fear type effect, it's not like undead haven't been affected by specific effects of those sorts since the very beginning of the game, with Turn Undead being the number one with a bullet, but spells like charm undead, halt undead, command undead and control undead coming along soon enough.
As with so many things related to mindless creatures and 'immune to mind-affecting' qualities, it only works until it is excepted not to work against this, that, or the the other thing, anyway.
Making anything 'immune to X' (instead of just 'resistant to X') only leads to an arms race, and the designing of special spells, feats, etc. that allow someone to negate that immunity. More words, same end result.
Eight years have I slumbered. . . .
*cackles*