Trip CM changes and feats


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

So, with the resent changes to the trip combat maneuver and the trip weapon feature, how is the following feat any good?

[url=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/ultimateMagicFeats.html#tripping-staff wrote:

Ultimate Magic Feat[/url]]Tripping Staff (Combat)

You can make a trip attack with your quarterstaff.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus (quarterstaff), base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: You treat quarterstaves as if they had the trip special feature.

Special: If you are a magus with the staff magus archetype, you can use spellstrike on any trip combat maneuver you make with the staff.


What has recently changed about trip and in what resource is the change documented?


For staff magi, yes.


Snapshot wrote:
What has recently changed about trip and in what resource is the change documented?

FAQ: If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?

"No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don't have to use a weapon with the trip special feature--you can use any weapon. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don't have the trip special feature.
Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.

On a related note, you don't have to use a weapon with the disarm special feature (a.k.a. a "disarm weapon") when making a disarm combat maneuver--you can use any weapon.

Note: This is a revision of this FAQ entry based on a Paizo blog about combat maneuvers with weapons. The previous version of this FAQ stated that using a trip weapon was the only way you could apply weapon enhancement bonuses, Weapon Focus bonuses, and other such bonuses to the trip combat maneuver roll. The clarification in that blog means any weapon used to trip applies these bonuses when making a trip combat maneuver, so this FAQ was updated to omit the "only trip weapons let you apply these bonuses" limitation.

—Sean K Reynolds, 03/15/11"


Happler wrote:

So, with the resent changes to the trip combat maneuver and the trip weapon feature, how is the following feat any good?

"Benefit: You treat quarterstaves as if they had the trip special feature.

Special: If you are a magus with the staff magus archetype, you can use spellstrike on any trip combat maneuver you make with the staff."

Well, it lets you treat quarterstaves as if they had the trip special feature. This lets you drop the quarterstaff to avoid being tripped if you fail the maneuver by 5. Also, it lets staff magus' use spellstrike with trip CMs, meaning you can trip someone and still let fly that shocking grasp or whatever.

Is there something specific about the feat you don't understand? Or just underwhelmed by its power?


I suspect the OP's complaint is that the big advantage of trip weapons (weapon focus and enhancements to the weapon contributing to trip) is now an advantage of any weapon, so his perks been reduced to a simple 'can drop weapon if you fail by a certain amount'. I am not a fan of the change myself.

Liberty's Edge

DM Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
I suspect the OP's complaint is that the big advantage of trip weapons (weapon focus and enhancements to the weapon contributing to trip) is now an advantage of any weapon, so his perks been reduced to a simple 'can drop weapon if you fail by a certain amount'. I am not a fan of the change myself.

Neither am I.

I think it's wretchedly lame.


It will be house-ruled in my PbP's at the next opportunity anyway, decided that a couple of days ago.

I understand the change is mostly designed to streamline play and reduce confusion, but I think it was a step too far.

Dark Archive

Grick wrote:
Happler wrote:

So, with the resent changes to the trip combat maneuver and the trip weapon feature, how is the following feat any good?

"Benefit: You treat quarterstaves as if they had the trip special feature.

Special: If you are a magus with the staff magus archetype, you can use spellstrike on any trip combat maneuver you make with the staff."

Well, it lets you treat quarterstaves as if they had the trip special feature. This lets you drop the quarterstaff to avoid being tripped if you fail the maneuver by 5. Also, it lets staff magus' use spellstrike with trip CMs, meaning you can trip someone and still let fly that shocking grasp or whatever.

Is there something specific about the feat you don't understand? Or just underwhelmed by its power?

correct, underwhelmed at the power of the feat. Especially since it takes 3 feats, a +6 bab, and an int of 13 to qualify for.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Grick wrote:
Well, it lets you treat quarterstaves as if they had the trip special feature. This lets you drop the quarterstaff to avoid being tripped if you fail the maneuver by 5.

Ten, actually.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Just thinking about this more. The Magus can already deliver a spellstrike via the quarterstaff on a trip. (it is a melee attack with a weapon).

So, the only thing that this feat does, is allow you to do the following:

1) drop the quarterstaff if you fail the trip by 10 or more.
2) use a quarterstaff for reposition and drag maneuvers (per the FAQ on trip)

To me this seems to be, at least now, just a feat tax to get the next one to allow you to trip all adjacent opponents with a quarterstaff. (Rather then going the whirlwind/improved trip route to do the same thing with any weapon).


Happler wrote:
The Magus can already deliver a spellstrike via the quarterstaff on a trip. (it is a melee attack with a weapon).

Trip can be made in place of a melee attack. Spellstrike is done as part of a melee attack.

If you are doing something in place of a melee attack, then you're not making that melee attack, and thus you can't Spellstrike as part of that melee attack.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Indeed, per the new tripping rules, the 'Trip' weapon quality has become fairly underwhelming. I submit that, in light of this change, DMs should institute a house rule (and Paizo should implement errata) to the effect that the trip quality gives a +2 bonus to trip attempts, in addition to its effect of letting you drop the weapon if you screw up. In other words, make it work like every other maneuver-related weapon quality.

Dark Archive

Grick wrote:
Happler wrote:
The Magus can already deliver a spellstrike via the quarterstaff on a trip. (it is a melee attack with a weapon).

Trip can be made in place of a melee attack. Spellstrike is done as part of a melee attack.

If you are doing something in place of a melee attack, then you're not making that melee attack, and thus you can't Spellstrike as part of that melee attack.

I think that it is open to debate, but even barring that, it seems like a high set of requirements for a minor bonus.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Happler wrote:

Just thinking about this more. The Magus can already deliver a spellstrike via the quarterstaff on a trip. (it is a melee attack with a weapon).

So, the only thing that this feat does, is allow you to do the following:

1) drop the quarterstaff if you fail the trip by 10 or more.
2) use a quarterstaff for reposition and drag maneuvers (per the FAQ on trip)

To me this seems to be, at least now, just a feat tax to get the next one to allow you to trip all adjacent opponents with a quarterstaff. (Rather then going the whirlwind/improved trip route to do the same thing with any weapon).

A couple of things to keep in mind:

1) The feat was, as I understand it, written at a time when the trip weapon quality meant something different. So don't be too hard on the poor guy. ;)

2) Use caution with the "combat maneuvers are attacks, therefore X" reasoning. For instance, it could be used to make a case that you could make a disarm attempt, roll a 20, call it a threat, roll to confirm, and thereby activate Tripping Strike. However, this has been stated to be an incorrect interpretation. It seems, then, that the definition of a combat maneuver as a subset of "attack" is less precise than we (or at least, I) would like. Thus, with something like Spellstrike... I honestly don't know. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. But keep the above in mind as you try to decide.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Revan wrote:
Indeed, per the new tripping rules, the 'Trip' weapon quality has become fairly underwhelming. I submit that, in light of this change, DMs should institute a house rule (and Paizo should implement errata) to the effect that the trip quality gives a +2 bonus to trip attempts, in addition to its effect of letting you drop the weapon if you screw up. In other words, make it work like every other maneuver-related weapon quality.

This was actually brought up in the discussion thread (linked in my above post) regarding the Trip changes. Incidentally, several players (myself included) and even SKR agree. However, Jason Buhlman does not. Thus, no errata is likely to be around the corner.

Dark Archive

Jiggy wrote:
Happler wrote:

Just thinking about this more. The Magus can already deliver a spellstrike via the quarterstaff on a trip. (it is a melee attack with a weapon).

So, the only thing that this feat does, is allow you to do the following:

1) drop the quarterstaff if you fail the trip by 10 or more.
2) use a quarterstaff for reposition and drag maneuvers (per the FAQ on trip)

To me this seems to be, at least now, just a feat tax to get the next one to allow you to trip all adjacent opponents with a quarterstaff. (Rather then going the whirlwind/improved trip route to do the same thing with any weapon).

A couple of things to keep in mind:

1) The feat was, as I understand it, written at a time when the trip weapon quality meant something different. So don't be too hard on the poor guy. ;)

2) Use caution with the "combat maneuvers are attacks, therefore X" reasoning. For instance, it could be used to make a case that you could make a disarm attempt, roll a 20, call it a threat, roll to confirm, and thereby activate Tripping Strike. However, this has been stated to be an incorrect interpretation. It seems, then, that the definition of a combat maneuver as a subset of "attack" is less precise than we (or at least, I) would like. Thus, with something like Spellstrike... I honestly don't know. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. But keep the above in mind as you try to decide.

Yep, I understand the CM thing (as I said, I think that is open for debate still), but even allowing that for magus, with the changes to the trip CM, I think that this feat either needs something else (like an extra +2 bonus to trip, or something along those lines) to be balanced for the investment.


I think that a good house rule might be that trip weapons give you a +2 to a trip attempt. For instance, the disarm property is:
Disarm: When you use a disarm weapon, you get a +2 bonus on Combat Maneuver Checks to disarm an enemy.
I believe that the trip property should be changed to:
Trip: When you use a trip weapon, you get a +2 bonus on Combat Maneuver Checks to trip an enemy.

I guess they could keep the special dropping the weapon stuff too, but honestly it seems no tougher to drop a staff or axe than a flail or sickle. A +2 bonus on the maneuver seems like a better benefit to me. If I were going to let characters drop any weapon to avoid being tripped I might consider making unarmed strikes a trip weapon with +2 on trip attempts (but if you fail by 10 or more you're going down).

I think that trip is a little too tough to pull off as is and the +2 bonus could help. Opinions might vary.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Devilkiller wrote:

I think that a good house rule might be that trip weapons give you a +2 to a trip attempt. For instance, the disarm property is:

Disarm: When you use a disarm weapon, you get a +2 bonus on Combat Maneuver Checks to disarm an enemy.
I believe that the trip property should be changed to:
Trip: When you use a trip weapon, you get a +2 bonus on Combat Maneuver Checks to trip an enemy.

I guess they could keep the special dropping the weapon stuff too, but honestly it seems no tougher to drop a staff or axe than a flail or sickle. A +2 bonus on the maneuver seems like a better benefit to me. If I were going to let characters drop any weapon to avoid being tripped I might consider making unarmed strikes a trip weapon with +2 on trip attempts (but if you fail by 10 or more you're going down).

I think that trip is a little too tough to pull off as is and the +2 bonus could help. Opinions might vary.

Have a look at my previous post (just a couple of posts up).

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