What's a fallen paladin to do?


Advice

1 to 50 of 190 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

Not for me, but a player in my game came to lament to me about a character idea. Long story short, he has a highly moving backstory, and a very well thought out character that makes the RP'er in me feel all warm and fuzzy. But the gamer in me screams in fear and rage. The reason? Fallen paladin. My player is similarly divided. While he believes he has a great idea for bringing a fallen paladin into the existing campaign (after his old character met an unfortunate end a few sessions ago.) He wonders what to do with a good few paladin levels that have had almost everything trimmed form them. Has anyone managed to play an 'effective' character with levels in fallen paladin?

Note: Just to make sure this is totally clear, this is not a blackguard, or anti paladin, or anything of the sort. this is a paladin that screwed up, and lost their class features.

Shadow Lodge

Start taking Fighter levels?

We've discussed such things in other threads. You may find the results suitable.


TOZ wrote:

Start taking Fighter levels?

We've discussed such things in other threads. You may find the results suitable.

I hadn't looked in house rules or anything, but thanks, I'll peruse that now.

Additionally, I kind of expected that, but has anyone managed to still make an effective character witha sizeable number of fallen paladin levels, or is it just gimped beyond redemption? (Typically, at any rate.)

The Exchange

"Beyond redemption" is too much of a judgement call to make. A paladin who invested mainly in Strength and Constitution rather than Wisdom or Charisma, and hasn't taken feats that boosted his paladin powers, can soldier on - but there's no denying it's a serious blow. I suspect that unless the ex-paladin's at least a level or two ahead of the rest of the PCs, he/she is going to be struggling from then on.

(Anybody else find it odd that there's no prestige class on the Chaotic Good end of the spectrum that welcomes Paladins who fell into chaos rather than evil? Not that I'm advocating more prestige classes! Because I'm not.)


You could probably do something with a GISH going into sorcerer?

I assume you mean to continue being a martial style character though?

Easiest might just to have it affect the back story but not the actual levels of the character.

So just take pure fighter with a background of ex-paladin. Same story but no gimped character.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lincoln Hills wrote:


(Anybody else find it odd that there's no prestige class on the Chaotic Good end of the spectrum that welcomes Paladins who fell into chaos rather than evil? Not that I'm advocating more prestige classes! Because I'm not.)

I don't. I really really extremely dislike the concept of Chaotic Good Paladins. (it's that whole Paladin powers without restriction that kind of bites my craw) It's a smack in the face of players who go the mile to run good Lawful Good Paladins to award players for failing to hold the line on both sides of the alignment.


LazarX wrote:


I don't. I really really extremely dislike the concept of Chaotic Good Paladins. (it's that whole Paladin powers without restriction that kind of bites my craw) It's a smack in the face of players who go the mile to run good Lawful Good Paladins to award players for failing to hold the line on both sides of the alignment.

I'm on this page here, I don't want to give the player everything back, but I feel like losing everything except their BAB and saves is a bit much. I'll share some of the comments here with them, and see where it goes. thanks again, everyone.

Dark Archive

He probably wants more than this, but a first level fallen paladin trades a bonus feat for a +2 to will saves. He would also lose out on a fighter level, so no weapon specialization until level 5, etc. but he would gain the save bonus and paladin class skills (and a hefty 2+int skill point).

The Exchange

LazarX wrote:
...I really really extremely dislike the concept of Chaotic Good Paladins. (it's that whole Paladin powers without restriction that kind of bites my craw) It's a smack in the face of players who go the mile to run good Lawful Good Paladins to award players for failing to hold the line on both sides of the alignment.

Hey, I don't disagree there. I like the notion that grace is hard to maintain, but richly rewarded. It just seemed odd to me that there was a PrC that would reward a paladin for becoming evil, but none that rewarded a paladin for remaining good even after falling from his former station. (Though now that I think about it, I don't think there is a Blackguard PrC in PF, is there?)


2 people marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:
Lincoln Hills wrote:


(Anybody else find it odd that there's no prestige class on the Chaotic Good end of the spectrum that welcomes Paladins who fell into chaos rather than evil? Not that I'm advocating more prestige classes! Because I'm not.)

I don't. I really really extremely dislike the concept of Chaotic Good Paladins. (it's that whole Paladin powers without restriction that kind of bites my craw) It's a smack in the face of players who go the mile to run good Lawful Good Paladins to award players for failing to hold the line on both sides of the alignment.

I disagree with this. As a general rule, I'm fine with LG, NG, and CG Paladins. I feel that players should go the effort to run an LG because they want to, not because it's the only way to run a Paladin. Plus, I have a hard time buying why only Lawful deities would want Paladins. I don't see a logical reason why an NG or CG version wouldn't exist. It makes no sense to me.

I feel the same about Anti-Paladins.


In Golarion there are two NG deities that grant paladin powers and one* LN.
NG: Serenrae and Shelyn
LN: Abadar

See? There are NG deitys that grant paladinhood, but the paladin has to be LG.

*I guess that Aroden also had paladins

To the OP:
Have him play a cavalier and call himself a fallen paladin? That's what i like to do with fallen paladins, i retrain their paladin levels to cavalier levels.

PS. I think that there is a somewhat friendly PrC to paladins that have fallen to chaotic, it's called low templar.


Have his powers come back slowly(very slowly) over the course of the game as his deity gives him one last chance. Even sending him on trials might work if the group can benefit from them also, that way he won't have a spotlight on him and steal the show.

If he is still adventuring and helping people he can't really be all bad, and that should be enough so that he might get his powers back one day. Paladin are called not made, and when the deity first granted the powers there had to be something in him that made him qualify.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lincoln Hills wrote:
LazarX wrote:
...I really really extremely dislike the concept of Chaotic Good Paladins. (it's that whole Paladin powers without restriction that kind of bites my craw) It's a smack in the face of players who go the mile to run good Lawful Good Paladins to award players for failing to hold the line on both sides of the alignment.
Hey, I don't disagree there. I like the notion that grace is hard to maintain, but richly rewarded. It just seemed odd to me that there was a PrC that would reward a paladin for becoming evil, but none that rewarded a paladin for remaining good even after falling from his former station. (Though now that I think about it, I don't think there is a Blackguard PrC in PF, is there?)

What PrC are you talking about? I can't think of any in Paizo core.


I'd let him retrain as a cavalier so those old paladin levels aren't wasted. I'd even suggest the Ronin order out of the Samurai write-up for an order until your ex-paladin can regain his honor and join a real order. Your PC can have 'regain lost honor' as his goal in the game. The writer in me would love to see how you end up handling this.

But there's always the question that hasn't yet been asked: Is the fallen paladin looking to regain paladinhood? Or has he fallen and that's that?


4 people marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:
What PrC are you talking about? I can't think of any in Paizo core.

There was a holy liberator in 3.5, and I'm pretty sure they had a special PrC for fallen paladins (not blackguards, just fallen paladins)... grey wanderer or somesuch.

However, if the fallen paladin is still LG and just momentarily ****** up, shouldn't they be simply looking to atone for their misdeeds and regain paladinhood? It could be a good RP hook, as long as the DM doesn't go by the "No, all he needs is to find a high-level cleric and shell out a mountain of cash" route. A fallen paladin who keeps acting like a paladin, struggles (mostly successfully) to live by the code, and is just as willing to fight and die for the good fight deserves another chance imo.

Personally, I can imagine few things more epic than a fallen paladin standing in front of an innocent as a horde of monsters (ogres, let's say) walk closer and sneer at him, aware he has no special powers. They attack - and one by one, fall, but each weakens the knight a bit further. The biggest, meanest pgre picks his spot just as another falls and strikes a blow with all its might, driving the warrior to his knees. He puts it all into making it to his feet, and just as the brute readies to finish him off, a light starts pouring out of the knight's wounds as they heal and vanish. He closes his eyes as the ogre steps back, and mouths "Thank you." Then he charges.

Atonement is something that should happen between the paladin and their patron/god. The current mechanic strikes me as a crutch at best, indulgence selling at worst.

The Exchange

LazarX wrote:
Lincoln Hills wrote:
...(Though now that I think about it, I don't think there is a Blackguard PrC in PF, is there?)
What PrC are you talking about? I can't think of any in Paizo core.

Oh, never mind. It was a 3.0 and 3.5 prestige class. You didn't have to be a fallen paladin to enter the Blackguard PrC, but if you were, it restored several of your lost class features (in an evil-oriented, corrupt form.) Since the alignment requirement to get into Blackguard was 'any evil', it sort of encouraged players - as long as they were falling from grace anyway - to fall all the way.


Pathfinder has the AntiPaladin :D
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin

Depending on how far he has fallen ;)

Madness is catchy, sometimes all it takes is a slight push.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

This is your game. You can do anything with it... This is my advice:

Turn him into full-blown antipaladin, complete with all powers, yet let him keep his alignment.

In other words, you get a Chaotic/Neutral/Lawful Good person, with an Aura of Evil wrapped around him like a boa constrictor. Let him try to deal with being perceived as evil, with children and animals shying away from him, his powers clearly sponsored by a mysterious dark patron.

The new powers won't do him much good - smite good and touch of corruption should be nigh useless, and he may, rightfully so, fear using his replacement abilities.

Then watch him... if he starts using his abilities carelessly, seal his fall. If he uses them only against evil, tries to act LG, let them slowly fade over time and, possibly, replace them with paladin counters.

A word of warning, though. Antipaladins are weaker than paladins by virtue of their abilities being limited to offensive. Additionally, all creatures capable of perceiving his aura may take steps to harm him. You may want to be generous with rewards for actions taken to rid of this curse.

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. No LG god should be a jerk to visit this upon their believer - this should be a genuine ploy to tempt an innocent person... (yes, I read Book of Job, and despite it being a parable, I still find it starkly sadistic and malevolent).


ruemere wrote:

This is your game. You can do anything with it... This is my advice:

Turn him into full-blown antipaladin, complete with all powers, yet let him keep his alignment.

In other words, you get a Chaotic/Neutral/Lawful Good person, with an Aura of Evil wrapped around him like a boa constrictor. Let him try to deal with being perceived as evil, with children and animals shying away from him, his powers clearly sponsored by a mysterious dark patron.

The new powers won't do him much good - smite good and touch of corruption should be nigh useless, and he may, rightfully so, fear using his replacement abilities.

Then watch him... if he starts using his abilities carelessly, seal his fall. If he uses them only against evil, tries to act LG, let them slowly fade over time and, possibly, replace them with paladin counters.

A word of warning, though. Antipaladins are weaker than paladins by virtue of their abilities being limited to offensive. Additionally, all creatures capable of perceiving his aura may take steps to harm him. You may want to be generous with rewards for actions taken to rid of this curse.

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. No LG god should be a jerk to visit this upon their believer - this should be a genuine ploy to tempt an innocent person... (yes, I read Book of Job, and despite it being a parable, I still find it starkly sadistic and malevolent).

Completely awesome.


The Shaman wrote:
LazarX wrote:
What PrC are you talking about? I can't think of any in Paizo core.

There was a holy liberator in 3.5, and I'm pretty sure they had a special PrC for fallen paladins (not blackguards, just fallen paladins)... grey wanderer or somesuch.

However, if the fallen paladin is still LG and just momentarily ****** up, shouldn't they be simply looking to atone for their misdeeds and regain paladinhood? It could be a good RP hook, as long as the DM doesn't go by the "No, all he needs is to find a high-level cleric and shell out a mountain of cash" route. A fallen paladin who keeps acting like a paladin, struggles (mostly successfully) to live by the code, and is just as willing to fight and die for the good fight deserves another chance imo.

Personally, I can imagine few things more epic than a fallen paladin standing in front of an innocent as a horde of monsters (ogres, let's say) walk closer and sneer at him, aware he has no special powers. They attack - and one by one, fall, but each weakens the knight a bit further. The biggest, meanest pgre picks his spot just as another falls and strikes a blow with all its might, driving the warrior to his knees. He puts it all into making it to his feet, and just as the brute readies to finish him off, a light starts pouring out of the knight's wounds as they heal and vanish. He closes his eyes as the ogre steps back, and mouths "Thank you." Then he charges.

Atonement is something that should happen between the paladin and their patron/god. The current mechanic strikes me as a crutch at best, indulgence selling at worst.

I liked reading that. Gave a bit of a chill. And, I agree with you on atonement wholeheartedly.


Allow this home-brewed class, as it was designed exactly for this purpose.

This is the most recent follow-through (on my part) to the the links posted by TOZ above. It reminds me that I should updated it once more...

'findel


ruemere wrote:

This is your game. You can do anything with it... This is my advice:

Turn him into full-blown antipaladin, complete with all powers, yet let him keep his alignment.

In other words, you get a Chaotic/Neutral/Lawful Good person, with an Aura of Evil wrapped around him like a boa constrictor. Let him try to deal with being perceived as evil, with children and animals shying away from him, his powers clearly sponsored by a mysterious dark patron.

The new powers won't do him much good - smite good and touch of corruption should be nigh useless, and he may, rightfully so, fear using his replacement abilities.

Then watch him... if he starts using his abilities carelessly, seal his fall. If he uses them only against evil, tries to act LG, let them slowly fade over time and, possibly, replace them with paladin counters.

A word of warning, though. Antipaladins are weaker than paladins by virtue of their abilities being limited to offensive. Additionally, all creatures capable of perceiving his aura may take steps to harm him. You may want to be generous with rewards for actions taken to rid of this curse.

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. No LG god should be a jerk to visit this upon their believer - this should be a genuine ploy to tempt an innocent person... (yes, I read Book of Job, and despite it being a parable, I still find it starkly sadistic and malevolent).

This sounds like a curse, or something like that, laid on him by an evil deity. If it's Job like then it's a test (or even a wager) between he gods that the character isn't aware of. That's a pretty cool idea.

It may just be that the evil god is just overriding the good god's power for some reason. (an artifact or other token of the dark god's power being carried by the character, perhaps? Or maybe just an anciet curse.) If that's the case then the good god isn't upset with the character at all, just being blocked.

I love the idea of a LG character with access to really dark magic being put into situations dire enough to be tempted to use them. That's fantastic.


Make him a fighter and say "Ok in your past you were a fallen paladin."

You don't need to literally take paladin levels and then erase those levels to show your background.

Alternately let him keep his class abilities and make the fallen thing roleplayed because everything else is just really dumb and awful, this here is my primo advice you should follow it.


ProfessorCirno wrote:
let him keep his class abilities and make the fallen thing roleplayed because everything else is just really dumb and awful, this here is my primo advice you should follow it.

So you're saying that a fallen paladin should just get to keep their abilities, even though they've fallen?

Wat?

Shadow Lodge

His point is that if the player's concept is 'fallen paladin', why should you punish him with crappy mechanics?

Let him play the paladin class, or if that breaks your verisimilitude, just have him use the fighter class with 'used to be a paladin but fell' as his backstory.


I would just let him build another class and have his ex=paladin as pure backstory. Playing a paladin class without any of the powers is not a great idea. So he should work toward redeeming himself or not use the class.

A caviler might give him the feel he wants without crippling him.


TOZ wrote:
His point is that if the player's concept is 'fallen paladin', why should you punish him with crappy mechanics?

Bingo.

The idea that falling makes paladins lose all their powers and become chumps is the most bizarre thing in all of D&D. Being seduced by evil literally makes you weaker in every single aspect, which makes the whole idea of evil being in any way seductive thrown out the window.

If a paladin falls it should be something roleplayed out with roleplayed problems and benefits. Clubbing him over the head with the loss of powers just makes "fallen paladin" into a joke.


Create a true neutral version of the paladin (an idea similar to the anti paladin). ihmo, it's long over due (if not core, I think a 3rd party publisher should jump on it one of these days if they haven't already).

Replace all powers that clearly come from a God though keep those that come from his own fate (i.e. Divine Grace and aura of courage come from his faith rather than a God). Eventhough his God might not like him, this doesn't mean his faith is less then before.

Change those that come from a God to something similar in strength (archetypes might help with this) with no reference to a God. If you run out of ideas, consider adding combat feats as a paladin is quite fighteresque..

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ProfessorCirno wrote:
TOZ wrote:
His point is that if the player's concept is 'fallen paladin', why should you punish him with crappy mechanics?

Bingo.

The idea that falling makes paladins lose all their powers and become chumps is the most bizarre thing in all of D&D. Being seduced by evil literally makes you weaker in every single aspect, which makes the whole idea of evil being in any way seductive thrown out the window.

If a paladin falls it should be something roleplayed out with roleplayed problems and benefits. Clubbing him over the head with the loss of powers just makes "fallen paladin" into a joke.

The mechanic was designed primarily as player punishment. Because when all is said and done, the only way a Paladin can fall is that the player chooses to let that happen.

Another thing to keep in mind is that I view rules as a framework and I don't hold RAW to be the be all and end all outside of PFS. There are many variants of Fallen Paladin, at least one is the Failed Paladin, the candidate who did not quite cut the mustard and never had a level of Paladin. That is something I would build with a different class, either Fighter or Cavalier as appropriate.


LazarX wrote:
Because when all is said and done, the only way a Paladin can fall is that the player chooses to let that happen.

Actually, from what I've heard and seen, it's usually the DM who more or less forces the Paladin into those situations, and it's the DM who determines what's a violation of conduct and what isn't.

Shadow Lodge

Icyshadow wrote:
Actually, from what I've heard and seen, it's usually the DM who more or less forces the Paladin into those situations, and it's the DM who determines what's a violation of conduct and what isn't.

Player chooses to walk out of that game.


Makes sense, but I've never seen a Paladin who'd deliberately lose their powers over a violation of the conduct in the middle of the game. Either there's a situation that's not so black-and-white (cheers for the shades of grey) in tone that is actually more Evil than Good (hard to explain) or then the DM is just being a dick about it (what usually happens when there's a paladin and the DM wants "interesting RP situations").

Also, why did this discussion remind me of that one scenario concerning some drow in Second Darkness?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:
The mechanic was designed primarily as player punishment. Because when all is said and done, the only way a Paladin can fall is that the player chooses to let that happen.

And that's dumb. It should be a chance for great narrative, potential drama, and an excellent well of roleplaying potential. Not a punishment.


ANebulousMistress wrote:

I'd let him retrain as a cavalier so those old paladin levels aren't wasted. I'd even suggest the Ronin order out of the Samurai write-up for an order until your ex-paladin can regain his honor and join a real order. Your PC can have 'regain lost honor' as his goal in the game. The writer in me would love to see how you end up handling this.

But there's always the question that hasn't yet been asked: Is the fallen paladin looking to regain paladinhood? Or has he fallen and that's that?

Goodness, I wasn't expecting nearly this many replies. No, the paladin broke their code, and their orders, without a doubt, willingly, and knowingly. As of right now though, they're still LG, if barely. Additionally, the paladin doesn't seek to regain paladin state, that's something they left behind. Why go back to an order/way of life that ended up calling them to do something they couldn't? LG doesn't automatically equal being a good paladin candidate, after all. They're not going back, they're going forward.


How many dead levels we talking here?


Shiney wrote:
ANebulousMistress wrote:

I'd let him retrain as a cavalier so those old paladin levels aren't wasted. I'd even suggest the Ronin order out of the Samurai write-up for an order until your ex-paladin can regain his honor and join a real order. Your PC can have 'regain lost honor' as his goal in the game. The writer in me would love to see how you end up handling this.

But there's always the question that hasn't yet been asked: Is the fallen paladin looking to regain paladinhood? Or has he fallen and that's that?

Goodness, I wasn't expecting nearly this many replies. No, the paladin broke their code, and their orders, without a doubt, willingly, and knowingly. As of right now though, they're still LG, if barely. Additionally, the paladin doesn't seek to regain paladin state, that's something they left behind. Why go back to an order/way of life that ended up calling them to do something they couldn't? LG doesn't automatically equal being a good paladin candidate, after all. They're not going back, they're going forward.

I'm pretty sure that in older editions of D&D, losing your Paladinhood just meant you reverted to a Fighter of your Paladin level. Admittedly this made total sense because Paladins were Fighters with lots of cool extra abilities (I have the 2E PHB, and they literally get the Fighter's weapon proficiencies, including specialization, hit dice, strength benefits as a warrior class, plus a lot of other stuff). It was patently better to be a Paladin than a Fighter, so when you fell, you became a Fighter (still completely playable).

I would seriously consider the same deal here. Let him replace them with levels of Fighter, or perhaps a prestige-class akin to the Blackguard which allows him to replace some of his lost features with something worthwhile.

========

On a side note, I think Arthas Menethil from Warcraft 3 is probably the best example I have ever seen of a fallen paladin. That includes his fall as well, and his eventual fall (or rise) to becoming a death knight.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
How many dead levels we talking here?

in this specific case? 5. But this instance makes me think about other scenarios as well, so this feedback has been ( mostly) Very helpful.


If you're a character whose first priority was personal potency, you weren't paladin material to begin with, so the mechanics of paladin falling are irrelevant. If you first priority is anything other than personal potency, all the prospect of losing your paladin powers does is raise how seductively evil has to act to successfully appeal to your other priorities.


Shiney wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
How many dead levels we talking here?
in this specific case? 5. But this instance makes me think about other scenarios as well, so this feedback has been ( mostly) Very helpful.

If its five and this is a new PC, I would make it pure backstory and let him build it with another class. Five dead levels will hurt him badly.


see wrote:
If you're a character whose first priority was personal potency, you weren't paladin material to begin with, so the mechanics of paladin falling are irrelevant. If you first priority is anything other than personal potency, all the prospect of losing your paladin powers does is raise how seductively evil has to act to successfully appeal to your other priorities.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees here. Character motivations are pretty much irrelevant to the playability of that character, and whether he should or should not have to suffer a severe handicap for trying to make an interesting character.


I think it should be background also. Being given such a big handicap for a background story is not cool IMHO. My reasoning is that if his background story said he was really powerful he would not get that power so such a hard handicap should not be handed to him either.


Go caviler, you can pull off a damned good fallen or failed paladin with that class.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's really up to the DM to handle this as he sees fit. The DM could go anyway from making the character keep those Ex-Paladin levels to allowing the player to recast them as fighter or cavalier levels.

Rules support for this...practically nil, but that's not a relevant concern. There are times when RAW needs to be chucked over the side when it gets in the way of campaign progress, and it's an individual call in each case.


5 people marked this as a favorite.
see wrote:
If you're a character whose first priority was personal potency, you weren't paladin material to begin with, so the mechanics of paladin falling are irrelevant. If you first priority is anything other than personal potency, all the prospect of losing your paladin powers does is raise how seductively evil has to act to successfully appeal to your other priorities.

The paladin stands in the jail cell. He pulls and snarls at the chains that bind him to the wall, knowing that even now, above him, the headsman is preparing the block. Not for him, but for another - an innocent he swore to protect. And here he was, down here, unable to assist.

Quietly, seductively, a voice whispers into his ear. "Give it up," it says. "It's so easy. Give in to me. Forsake your vows and swear off your god, and I will give you strength one hundred fold. You can save that precious boy above."

He sees it. Visions flash by his eyes - he sees himself yanking the chains off the wall. Storming up the steps and freeing the boy, escaping this jail. Or better yet, casting down the corrupt judges that put him in here, and implementing a new system of justice and mercy. No more headsman's block. No more whips.

The paladin raises his head and tilts it to the side to face the devil calmly, before replying:

"No, see, if I did that, I'd fall, and I'd basically lose all my class abilities. I mean, it would be just weaknesses all over the place, I'd be pretty useless. Look your deal is nice and all but the mechanics are pretty clear that taking you on your offer would just make me weaker."


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I mean imagine if in Return of the Jedi, when Darth Vader mocks Luke and comments on corrupting Leia, Luke is suddenly filled with anger and for that brief moment falls to the dark side, charges Vader, and then just dies immidiately when Vader kills him with ease because Luke lost all his class abilities from falling.


ProfessorCirno wrote:
I mean imagine if in Return of the Jedi, when Darth Vader mocks Luke and comments on corrupting Leia, Luke is suddenly filled with anger and for that brief moment falls to the dark side, charges Vader, and then just dies immidiately when Vader kills him with ease because Luke lost all his class abilities from falling.

Good thing jedi are not paladins then huh. They don't even have much in common with Paladins. The comparison is not a great one as they are nothing alike, they are more a magues or something. They have a "code" but it is a self imposed one with nothing to do with how they gain power.

The warcraft 3 example however is a damned good one.

A paladin is his code, his honor, his vow and the hard road he walks makes him what he is.Without the ability to fall, without the code what a paladin is loses all meaning.

Shadow Lodge

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Good thing jedi are not paladins then huh. They don't even have much in common with Paladins.

Really?

Well, that explains a lot about our disagreements.


But without the capacity to fall in power and glory of a different sort, the Paladin has very little real temptation. How is a Paladin EVER going to fall when a fall isn't just a fall from grace, but a fall from power as well?

3.5's Blackguard was pretty good for this, though it had some random prerequisites >.<

Liberty's Edge

ProfessorCirno wrote:

The idea that falling makes paladins lose all their powers and become chumps is the most bizarre thing in all of D&D. Being seduced by evil literally makes you weaker in every single aspect, which makes the whole idea of evil being in any way seductive thrown out the window.

If a paladin falls it should be something roleplayed out with roleplayed problems and benefits. Clubbing him over the head with the loss of powers just makes "fallen paladin" into a joke.

You seem to believe that a Paladin's loss of powers is permanent. It is very much not so.

IMO, PFRPG powered the Paladin up one so that people who wanted to play one for RP reasons (and accepted the whole code and alignment constraints with it) would not be punished by playing a weaker class (which the Paladin was in 3.5).

I believe that having the possibility of temporarily losing their powers is what balances the "brokenness" of the class. If you take away this possibility, you will end up with a Paladin class with zero constraints and that will quickly dominate every other class around.

Liberty's Edge

kyrt-ryder wrote:
But without the capacity to fall in power and glory of a different sort, the Paladin has very little real temptation. How is a Paladin EVER going to fall when a fall isn't just a fall from grace, but a fall from power as well?

Yo do know that there is this interesting little thing called roleplaying, right ?

Trust me, I am quite the min-maxer, but even I sometimes choose sub-optimized (from a powergamer point of view) options because they make more sense for my character and because they bring more fun in his life/adventures.

1 to 50 of 190 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / What's a fallen paladin to do? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.