Burn Thistletop?


Rise of the Runelords


The PCs in the group that I am running have reached Thistletop. They've fought through the bramble tunnels, driven Gogmurt back to the keep on the island, infiltrated the goblin home itself and methodically defeated everything above ground. The bugbear even chanced to wander upstairs after the battle and encountered the PCs arguing over how best to transport the rescued horse and recovered treasure chest over the rickety rope bridge.

After a short but brutal fight they killed him as he was trying to get back downstairs for reinforcements. So far no one else downstairs is aware of the destruction of the goblin clan above their heads.

The PCs have decided to move back from the island to rest and lick their wounds. They know that there is more below the keep, but not exactly what, and they are not willing to go down in their weakened state after their day of fighting above ground.

So they have tried to burn the keep. They arranged the furniture abd dirty linens in the chief's bedchamber and used alchemist fire to get it started and then left the fire to its own devices.

So...after all that...do you have any advice for me on the results of this action? Do you think that the whole keep will burn? It's made out of scavenged pieces of wood from shipwrecks and (I assume) the surrounding forest. Being so close to the water and taking into account the area that it is in, do you think the wood is too waterlogged and will only smolder and char or will it burn merrily to the ground?

I can definitely come up with some answers on my own, but I'm looking for ideas to help me flesh the whole event out. What do you think will happen to the keep? What about the folks downstairs? Will they even notice? Will it casue a great disturbance for them and drive them out? Is there a chance that the keep will burn so strong that pieces will float across the water to the mainland and start fires there?

Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated!

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Pine Tar.

Pine tar was widely used in crafting ship hulls, so there would still be some of it in the walls of the goblin fort. It is also flamable, but with the wet conditions, it will be difficult to ignite ... initally.

My party used a flaming sphere while the goblins were still in the fort! The resulting melee with the fleeing goblins caused the heroes a whole new set of problems.

But, once it they get the fire started, the tar will catch the wood, and the it would burn to the ground without further maintainance.

The resulting fires would also be hot enough make it unpleasent for those below ground, but - Why, yes, that is how they roast pigs in Hawaii.

Speaking of smoke, it would be visible for miles, likely as far away as Magnimar, but not all the way to Riddleport.

Liberty's Edge

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I would add that your party is probably going to have company sooner than they expected. Probably at least Lyrie and Orik coming up to investigate/yell at the stupid goblins/put out the fire. Nualia herself would eventually also show up, probably with yeth hounds in tow. And then you have the other goblin tribes, some of whom might be willing to rush to the Thistletop tribe's aid, or try to come take over the best lair/keep it from burning down. Of course, eventually someone from Sandpoint will come investigate, but by then it will probably be too late for them to help.

All in all, if your party is burning it down so they can rest and recover safely, it's probably not the best way to go about it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

One thing worth remembering is that the fort is built on the top of a Thassilonian statue head. The Thassilonians built their stuff strong, and even if the protective magics are starting to fade ten thousand years later, it's up to you as GM to decide whether they might perhaps protect the people downstairs from the fire upstairs, which I would think had a pretty good chance of both destroying the fort, and bringing the other inhabitants out to investigate.

If I were the GM, I would:
--have all the goblin wives come out in a big disordered rush--many of them on fire--and run a guerilla style battle through the thistle tunnels. The tunnels will likely be set on fire by the fleeing goblins.
--bring Lyrie and Orik up with the yeth hounds from the cathedral and have them all attack the party at once.
--bring Nualia up last, and have her stride through the flames to attack the party thanks to GM fiat. It's just too good a piece of imagery to miss. : )

Optionally, you could also have Nualia somehow releasing Malfeshnekor in a fit of pique*, and spring him on the PCs as well.

*Note I don't have the adventure to hand right now, so I can't remember if Nuala actually knows how to release Malfeshnekor or not, but it would sure be a pretty nasty surprise.

Now I play with a pretty hardcore group when it comes to challenges--they love nothing better than having their PCs bloodied and beaten to within an inch of their lives--so what works for me might not necessarily work for you.


Wasn't there something in the AP about the constant sea spray soaking everything thereby making it more difficult to burn?

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Incabulos wrote:
Wasn't there something in the AP about the constant sea spray soaking everything thereby making it more difficult to burn?

There was, and that would protect the living hedge.

If the fort was "ordinary wood" it would have protected it.

But, the Pine Tar is the problem.

Grand Lodge

If you do a search on "burning" in the ROTR section, you will see a few other threads on burning Thistletop, burning Foxglove Manor, burning the Graul house...

If the place was easy to ignite, goblins would have managed to burn it down before the heroes arrived :)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Reposted from another thread where the same question came up:

Thistletop Fortress would not burn well at all.
The coastline of Varisia is a VERY rainy, foggy place. It rains a fair amount, and it's pretty much foggy every morning and every evening. And that doesn't account for the fact that seaspray keeps everything pretty damp 24/7.

As a result, fire spreads relatively slowly among coastal locations—if it gets hot enough, it'll do a lot of damage, but the trick is getting it hot enough.

Look at it another way—the goblins who live IN Thistletop are probably bigger fans of burning stuff than your PCs are, and they haven't managed to burn their home down on accident yet.

SO! If I had a group of players in a game I was running who wanted to burn down Thistletop (or any other dungeon, for that matter, such as Foxglove Manor in part 2 of the AP), I'd make it kind of tough to get things started. A few vials of alchemist's fire won't do it. I'd probably require some Knowledge (engineering) checks or the like to get things off the ground. And while the PCs were doing all that... there'd be monsters coming to get them.

If they DO manage to burn a dungeon down, I wouldn't award them XP for any monsters and traps "defeated" by the fire, I don't think. I WOULD take pains to describe to them the burnt and ruined remains of any prisoners, innocent animals, and treasure that they failed to liberate or rescue from the building before it burned down.

Put another way—the point of a site like Thistletop is to explore it, not to destroy it. Players who are more interested in burning a dungeon down than they are in exploring it might be more interested in a different game entirely.

Now... if they burn the place down AFTER they explore it and all that, that's a different story. In that case, I'd not have any of the people who retreated to the lower levels be particularly hurt; there's plenty of ventilation down there, and the dungeon they're in is a giant stone head that's resisted 10,000+ years of erosion thanks to preservative Runelord Magics. A fire on its crown isn't gonna do much more damage.


Thanks! All your replies have helped a lot.

The party is not intent on just burning everything for the fun of burning it. They have cleared out the fortress surface level and are ready to retreat, but know that there is still more underground. They basically wanted to inconvenience whatever is downstairs before they go down themselves just in case that would give them an advantage...either that or possibly make whoever is down there think that the goblins managed to catch their fort on fire so that they wouldn't suspect they are being invaded.

I was thinking that it would be a tough place to burn, especially with the goblin's love of fire. The party basically threw some flammable things into the chief's room and tossed in a couple of alchemist fires and left, so they have not put much effort into the idea at all.

I think that I will have the chief's chambers and probably a little of the surrounding rooms end up as burned out shells, but the walls and roof will remain pretty much intact and the rest of the complex will be fine.

Dark Archive

The first time, I allowed my group to burn the fortress down. It didnt burn entirely and they had to remove rubble and debris to even find ways to the levels below.

The group I DM now, defeated the goblins but ran across the bridge to hide and recover from their wounds. While they were camped, I had some of Nualia's cronies light the fortress on fire to deter the group to continue searching, so that they would think that there was nothing to the fortress and go away, leaving Nualia and her fellow 'longshanks' to continue their work in the levels below. Alas, my group sifted through the rubble for hours and found a door 'lying' over a staircase that led below....

Grand Lodge

Shadowcat, sounds like you ran things exactly the way I would have :)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Huh.

In working on the Runelords hardcover revision, I came across this:

Burnt Offerings wrote:
The thorns that comprise the “walls” here are quite damp; the fog every morning and evening ensures that. As a result, the brambles don’t burn well. An attempt to smoke out the goblins or burn down their thistle maze only results in a slow-burning smoky fire that alerts the goblins to the PCs’ precise location.

So the answer was right there in the original text all along! TRIUMPH!! ;-)

Liberty's Edge

My PCs returned to town and bought several barrels of lamp oil with which to burn the thistle maze after their second time through and after fighting goblins in the fort. It mostly served as a detriment as it made their approach to the fort all the more exposed when Nualia had her named NPCs sit on the parapets instead of goblins.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

James Jacobs wrote:

Huh.

In working on the Runelords hardcover revision, I came across this:

Burnt Offerings wrote:
The thorns that comprise the “walls” here are quite damp; the fog every morning and evening ensures that. As a result, the brambles don’t burn well. An attempt to smoke out the goblins or burn down their thistle maze only results in a slow-burning smoky fire that alerts the goblins to the PCs’ precise location.
So the answer was right there in the original text all along! TRIUMPH!! ;-)

Not quite.

Yes, wet living plants do not burn very well. Yes, the rain and sea spray would make the hedge maze pretty much immune to catching fire.

But, what we were talking about is the fortress on the island, which is made of old ship parts. (Burnt Offerings, p. 37, area C10) This puts the issue back with the "Pine Tar" problem. It was used to protect wooden ship hulls from being rotted by the sea spray and weather of the ocean. But, it did make fire a real danger.

Now, also keep in mind that there is a Scroll of Flaming Sphere (cast at 5th level) available to the party (page 27, area B8) which a sufficiently ruthless group can use to start the "ball" rolling so to speak.


Greycloak of Bowness wrote:
My PCs returned to town and bought several barrels of lamp oil with which to burn the thistle maze after their second time through and after fighting goblins in the fort. It mostly served as a detriment as it made their approach to the fort all the more exposed when Nualia had her named NPCs sit on the parapets instead of goblins.

Oh, cool. I'm going to totter off and read that part in your campaign journal. :D

Liberty's Edge

Twigs wrote:
Oh, cool. I'm going to totter off and read that part in your campaign journal. :D

My memory of the exact order of events may not be perfect but there was a burn and it left the PCs with no cover as they approached the island.

I'm pretty sure my post-burn battle map is in that thread too. If not and you want it, email me - my address is in my profile.

Liberty's Edge

My group also thought to burn Thistletop, though that idea waned once I told them the dampness of the building and the fact that they didn't have much oil on hand.


My group also wanted to burn the place down. The take away is that PC's are just as bad as goblins in wanting to see things burn!


Since our group approached the island unseen by boat in the early morning, we ended up clearing out the entire island, dungeon and all, before approaching the mainland thistle thicket camp. Having wiped out all named NPCs on the island in dramatic fashion we decided to show Gogmort, his remaining followers and the goblin harem mercy by allowing them to leave the area once they'd surrendered all their weapons; telling them to spread word of Thistletop's fall to the remaining goblin tribes and that the island would henceforth be off limits to their kind.

Then, to drive home our point, we set their entire ramshackle fort along with the island's thickets ablaze so that they could watch it burn as they retreated. Later, once the fire had burnt itself out, we cleared off the island's surface and planted a circle of seven feather token oaks which we later hallowed; transforming it into a sacred grove with the dungeon beneath as our party's permanent residence. We now call it Oaktop Island.

Liberty's Edge

My group did the same thing last night. "Wooden fort, eh?" they said. "Good thing I memorized flaming sphere!" said the druid. And up went the flames.

Having not seen this thread or JJ's comments until now, I ruled that since it was built out of old ships, it would likely burn pretty well. Oh well. Many goblins died in the blaze, but Ripnugget and some choice commandos escaped to the lower levels of the island.

Now I just have to decide how the rest of the crew will react to this. Also, I predict the druid will have a bit of a meltdown when they search the rubble and find the charred remains of Shadowmist...


Yeah. I had a PC try to burn down the thistle maze. It... didn't work very well. Even with oil. Finally they went through it and had a fully-alerted goblin tribe (who didn't tell Nualia and crew - Ripnugget didn't want to disappoint Nualia by thinking he couldn't handle a couple adventurers on his own).

They actually cleared out the entire upper and lower level in one push. Of course, I did start everyone out at 2nd level but I also upped the level of everyone else by one to compensate. ;)


Yeah-- my PCs toyed with burning down Thistletop, but I gave them a "Make a Wisdom check-- DC 5" clue that goblins often take prisoners who'd die in a fire; that there might be something bigger going on but any clues would go up in flames; and most of the treasure wouldn't survive a conflagration.

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