Dm is suggesting that "melee weapon" means only manufactured weapons, not natural attacks, so deflecting a claw/bite doesn't work. Anyone have a reference we can look at?
I would say anything that uses your base attack +melee bonus would be deflected
not base attack + ranged bonus
though deflecting a tiger bite win chun style like bruce lee is ludicrous it should work by RAW
that is just me though and my unhealthy downright insatiable love of all things monk.
As they fall under the attack (melee) action type yea it works on natural attacks.
Dm is suggesting that "melee weapon" means only manufactured weapons, not natural attacks, so deflecting a claw/bite doesn't work. Anyone have a reference we can look at?
There are only two attacks in the game melee and ranged. Even touch attacks are subsets of these.
Attack Bonus
Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is the following:
Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier
With a ranged weapon, your attack bonus is the following:
Base attack bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier + range penalty
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn.
Is your GM going to argue that creatures such as dragons can't make attacks of opportunities?
Is your GM going to argue that creatures such as dragons can't make attacks of opportunities?
Or that a Monk can't block/deflect/ turn aside the punch of another monk.
Oh oh oh, I know where these threads end up. I'll just get it out of the way.
Your GM is must be Hitler.
To be honest, despite all the logical inconsistencies, I think everyone knows what the GM is trying to do. Crane Style is very powerful. This doesn't seem unreasonable at all, and pulls the stance back a little, power-wise.
Oh oh oh, I know where these threads end up. I'll just get it out of the way.
Your GM is must be Hitler.
To be honest, despite all the logical inconsistencies, I think everyone knows what the GM is trying to do. Crane Style is very powerful. This doesn't seem unreasonable at all, and pulls the stance back a little, power-wise.
How much it "pulls the stance back" becomes directly proportionate to the distribution of enemies and what types of attacks they use. Therefore, it could be a slight, moderate, or downright "nerf-batting" of the feat. Better to let it work on natural attacks even if it is potent. Chances are the 3-4 natural attacks that will be coming at the player per round deflecting one per round is just going to make clean up a bit less resource intensive.
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If it meant "manufactured weapon," it would say "manufactured weapon" rather than "melee weapon."
If it meant "manufactured weapon," it would say "manufactured weapon" rather than "melee weapon."
Well I guess that settles that.
I've been playing a Monk1(MoMS)/Fighter1(Lore Warden)1 (not the most optimized multiclass around, just testing out Crane Style chain with a modest build) in PFS since UC came out because my instinct is that Crane Wing was a bit too strong (MoMS has Crane Wing at 1st). So far, I've found that it's easy to underestimate the value of the AC bonus from Crane Style and look at only the Crane Wing. However, as a whole, so far he has "carried" a few scenarios due to his style.
In one scenario, he was level 2 and playing with a group of 4 level 4s in a Subtier 3-4 adventure. The others all succumbed to the encounter but one ally (who had their to-hit drained to near uselessnes), but since he couldn't be hit, my Monk/Fighter (eventually) took care of it.
In another, where I wound up playing Subtier 4-5 with a bunch of levels 4s again, surprisingly, I never used Crane Wing because nothing even hit my Fighting Defensively AC with a melee attack (the enemies didn't roll terribly well on those, and some of them used AoE or ranged attacks, which I'll have covered next level when I get Deflect Arrows and Evasion).
When it comes to monsters with 3 or 4 natural attacks per round, don't underestimate the AC boost part of the feat chain from fighting defensively--in that first encounter, I was soloing an encounter with like four ghouls (by moving to a narrow corridor where I could not be attacked by more than one at a time) which could hypothetically have hit me with their three attacks per round, but they never beat the target AC more than once in the same round.
So, I mean, I'm glad that I have him because I think at least the first game would have been a TPK if I had brought in most other level 2 characters instead, but that does seem a bit powerful of a result for a level 2 character against a whole module designed for higher level characters. It seems like it will be a whole lot weaker at higher levels, so maybe the real problem is the MoMS's ability to pick up Crane Wing before level 5?
The core rulebook has this to say about natural attacks.
So apparently there's a distinction between the two.You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack.
No... it just means you have a sword in the hand so its not in the position to use the claws at the end of the hand.
If it meant "manufactured weapon," it would say "manufactured weapon" rather than "melee weapon."Well I guess that settles that.
So if te monster has a "melee bite" attack, does that count as a melee weapon attack?
So if te monster has a "melee bite" attack, does that count as a melee weapon attack?If it meant "manufactured weapon," it would say "manufactured weapon" rather than "melee weapon."Well I guess that settles that.
Yes. As would claw, gore, tentacle, wing slap, tail slap, slam. If I missed a monster natural attack that occurs in melee it count's as well.
If you watch Crane Style on youtube, you will see what they are trying to accomplish. They used the Deflect Arrows mechanic for ease of use. But what you're actually doing is getting out of the way of the attack, usually by moving to the side.
I once had a GM arguing the exact same thing, just different part of the rules: melee weapon =/= natural weapon. And because the rules on performing a Coup de Grace said "melee weapon" it can't be done with a "natural weapon." Apparently lions, tigers, and bears (oh my) are incapable of ripping out an unconscious (or otherwise incapacitated) animal's throat with teeth or claws. That action requires at least a hand ax.
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2 years, 5 months, and 25 days. You necro-ed this thread after that long? AFTER the 'clarification' and rewrite of Crane Wing which caused such a ruckus on these boards just a few months back. IN GOD'S NAME WHY?
MA
Because I didn't have a very expensive onyx and a necromancer has to start somewhere. ;p