Four mirror Armor


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Could someone explain this for me one of my players wants to know if its really 1/3rd cost chainmail or if he has to wear both chainmail and four mirror?

And if its the second why would you?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

what source is "Four Mirror Armor" in ?


Ultimate Combat.


Chainmail 150 gp +6 +2 –5 30% 20 ft. 15 ft. 40 lbs.
4. Mir. armor 45 gp +6 +2 –5 30% 20 ft. 15 ft. 45 lbs.

So yes its just 5lbs heavier and 1/3 the price of 'Western chainmail'.

The same problem is found in the Elven Curve Blade being redundant to the Nodachi - and its 5 gold cheaper to boot.

That said, there is no guarantee the Eastern weapons are available in the campaign though.


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We are in the East so it is availble.
This is kinda like eastern sticks being better than western ones.


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Talonhawke wrote:

We are in the East so it is availble.

This is kinda like eastern sticks being better than western ones.

At first I thought you said pricks, and I lol'd.

You know what this makes me think of? Katana weeabos. Let me clue people in on something: katanas are worthless against heavy armor.


Its an Eastern Stick sadly :(


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Corporal Addington wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:

We are in the East so it is availble.

This is kinda like eastern sticks being better than western ones.

At first I thought you said pricks, and I lol'd.

You know what this makes me think of? Katana weeabos. Let me clue people in on something: katanas are worthless against heavy armor.

Let's not start that here, ok?


Matt Stich wrote:
Corporal Addington wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:

We are in the East so it is availble.

This is kinda like eastern sticks being better than western ones.

At first I thought you said pricks, and I lol'd.

You know what this makes me think of? Katana weeabos. Let me clue people in on something: katanas are worthless against heavy armor.

Let's not start that here, ok?

Start what? The sword arguments or penis comments?


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Commander Addington wrote:
Matt Stich wrote:
Corporal Addington wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:

We are in the East so it is availble.

This is kinda like eastern sticks being better than western ones.

At first I thought you said pricks, and I lol'd.

You know what this makes me think of? Katana weeabos. Let me clue people in on something: katanas are worthless against heavy armor.

Let's not start that here, ok?
Start what? The sword arguments or penis comments?

The sword arguments.


Mirror armor is a typo, prep fr errata.
For the time being, we made it reg armor + 45gp and it adds +1 to ac +5 lbs.

Weve got a weird house ruled armor subrule though and that just fit in, we used this armor prior, the same way, as an overlayer.

Grand Lodge

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The insane cheapness of some of the eastern armours coupled with their higher than average benefits in either weight or maneuver penalties leaves me scratching my head.

And the less said of the NoDachi the better.


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Slowly backs out of thread hoping it doesn't blow up and wondering if the cops will believe he just wanted a simple answer.


At a time when westerners could only get as much iron as their smiths could hammer out the Chinese where mass producing steel with primitive Bessemer Converters, that might have something with the price. Especially if they had drawing mills to quickly produce wire instead of hammering out individual rings.

Shadow Lodge

Shifty wrote:

Chainmail 150 gp +6 +2 –5 30% 20 ft. 15 ft. 40 lbs.

4. Mir. armor 45 gp +6 +2 –5 30% 20 ft. 15 ft. 45 lbs.

So yes its just 5lbs heavier and 1/3 the price of 'Western chainmail'.

The same problem is found in the Elven Curve Blade being redundant to the Nodachi - and its 5 gold cheaper to boot.

That said, there is no guarantee the Eastern weapons are available in the campaign though.

Chainmail vs 4 Mirror Armor isn't as much of an issue as ECB vs Nodachi as the Breastplate is better than both Chainmail and Mirror Armor and once you start using special materials, 155 gold extra isn't an issue.


Sorry to dig up a really old post, but this is the only one I found on four-mirror armor. Is it just me, or is the description misleading in that it's described as to improve on chainmail armor?

At first I was wondering what Paizo was smoking to let people wear two different medium armors at once.


They are referencing the piecemeal armor variant rules. This is where the cost of chainmail becomes so prohibitive do to the cost of the chain shirt. The actual pricing of the four mirror armor in the eastern section is equal to the combination of a four mirror torso and chain arms pieces from that section. Yes it is much better than chainmail, meaning the chain shirt is the best use of chainmail tech in pathfinder. The piecemeal armor rules uses four mirrored armor to create the best medium armor, but the weight is prohibitive.


Talonhawke wrote:
Slowly backs out of thread hoping it doesn't blow up and wondering if the cops will believe he just wanted a simple answer.

"It was him, officer! He started the riot!"

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It should require two feats to wear it.

On the subject of Eastern Arms and Armor:
It should also require three feats to even touch a Katana.
Which should be updated to deal 3d12 15-20 x4.
Also, it cannot be available to anyone, unless they have levels in Monk, Ninja, or Samurai.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The problem I have with some Eastern weapons being "just better" is that they're either heavily restricted based on campaign setting (making them only situationally available and a waste of book space for many) for fluffier games, or, for more refluffy games, just plain power creep.


Did you really Necro a thread from August for that?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Necro police strikes again. Was probably googling something and forgot it wasn't a current thread. Doesn't really matter though.


The Red Mage wrote:
The problem I have with some Eastern weapons being "just better" is that they're either heavily restricted based on campaign setting (making them only situationally available and a waste of book space for many) for fluffier games, or, for more refluffy games, just plain power creep.

Oriental Armor isn't too bad an issue with me

Oriental Armor generally trades base AC for a Max-Dex increase

the only viable special materials are mithril and darkleaf cloth because they mitigate check penalties, increase Dex bonus, reduce movement penalties, and occasionally serve as a back door to cheat proficiency requirements.

the following Armors are competitive

Light

Rosewood*$
Leather*$
Studded Leather*~
Parade*~
Leaf*
Silken Ceremonial Robe$
Haramaki$
Chain Shirt^

the following Medium Armors are Competitive
Hide*^
Kikko*^
Breastplate
Do-Maru
Steel Lamellar
Mountain Pattern

The Following Heavy Armors are Competitive
Full Plate
Stone Plate
Hellknight Plate
Tatami-do$
O-Yoroi

Legend

*Requires special materials to be competitive
^ Can Cheat Proficiency Requirements by virtue of Special Materials
~ Can Cheat Proficiency Requires by being masterwork or by use of special materials
$ requires an exeptionally highly dexterity focused build to be effective

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Oriental Armor?

Is that thar armah made by dem Orientals?

So, why was this necro'd again?


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
The Red Mage wrote:
The problem I have with some Eastern weapons being "just better" is that they're either heavily restricted based on campaign setting (making them only situationally available and a waste of book space for many) for fluffier games, or, for more refluffy games, just plain power creep.

Oriental Armor isn't too bad an issue with me

Oriental Armor generally trades base AC for a Max-Dex increase

the only viable special materials are mithril and darkleaf cloth because they mitigate check penalties, increase Dex bonus, reduce movement penalties, and occasionally serve as a back door to cheat proficiency requirements.

the following Armors are competitive

Light

Rosewood*$
Leather*$
Studded Leather*~
Parade*~
Leaf*
Silken Ceremonial Robe$
Haramaki$
Chain Shirt^

the following Medium Armors are Competitive
Hide*^
Kikko*^
Breastplate
Do-Maru
Steel Lamellar
Mountain Pattern

The Following Heavy Armors are Competitive
Full Plate
Stone Plate
Hellknight Plate
Tatami-do$
O-Yoroi

Legend

*Requires special materials to be competitive
^ Can Cheat Proficiency Requirements by virtue of Special Materials
~ Can Cheat Proficiency Requires by being masterwork or by use of special materials
$ requires an exeptionally highly dexterity focused build to be effective

I don't see how you can cheat proficiencies with special materials. You still need the proficiency to wear heavy armor for a mithral full plate, so I don't see how you can cheat anything.


CrystalSpellblade wrote:
I don't see how you can cheat proficiencies with special materials. You still need the proficiency to wear heavy armor for a mithral full plate, so I don't see how you can cheat anything.

You don't need proficiency to wear it. You take a specific penalty for not having proficiency while wearing armor. I can be a wizard in full plate, but its not exactly the best idea. The penalties however are based on the ACP, so if you can hit 0 ACP through any mix of traits, special materials, or the comfort enhancement then you take no penalty for wearing an armor you aren't proficient with.


MrSin wrote:
CrystalSpellblade wrote:
I don't see how you can cheat proficiencies with special materials. You still need the proficiency to wear heavy armor for a mithral full plate, so I don't see how you can cheat anything.
You don't need proficiency to wear it. You take a specific penalty for not having proficiency while wearing armor. I can be a wizard in full plate, but its not exactly the best idea. The penalties however are based on the ACP, so if you can hit 0 ACP through any mix of traits, special materials, or the comfort enhancement then you take no penalty for wearing an armor you aren't proficient with.

Exactly my point.

Mithril Kikko is no different from a mithril chain shirt with the added benefit of an additional +1 point of armor class for 2,930 more gold spent. at least, when you factor mithril.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


Oriental Armor isn't too bad an issue with me

Oriental Armor generally trades base AC for a Max-Dex increase

the only viable special materials are mithril and darkleaf cloth because they mitigate check penalties, increase Dex bonus, reduce movement penalties, and occasionally serve as a back door to cheat proficiency requirements.

the following Armors are competitive

Light

Rosewood*$
Leather*$
Studded Leather*~
Parade*~
Leaf*
Silken Ceremonial Robe$
Haramaki$
Chain Shirt^

the following Medium Armors are Competitive
Hide*^
Kikko*^
Breastplate
Do-Maru
Steel Lamellar
Mountain Pattern

The Following Heavy Armors are Competitive
Full Plate
Stone Plate
Hellknight Plate
Tatami-do$
O-Yoroi

Legend

*Requires special materials to be competitive
^ Can Cheat Proficiency Requirements by virtue of Special Materials
~ Can Cheat Proficiency Requires by being masterwork or by use of special materials
$ requires an exeptionally highly dexterity focused build to be effective

Not so.

Haramaki and silken ceremonial have no arcane spell failure chance. It's power creep for full casters who really don't need more nice things. And they invalidate the armored kilt.

Do maru and horn lamellar is just better than scale mail. And kikko armor is just better than that.

Four-mirror armor is just better than chainmail by price, and steel lamellar by max dex bonus.

Stone coat is just better than half-plate by price.

And of course, you can save money using a tatami-do if you have a Dex of 14 or higher vs. buying full plate.

Whether or not any of these examples of power creep are competitive for optimizers doesn't matter. I still don't like it when new options literally invalidate older options.

And cheating proficiencies with special materials really falls outside of the realm of this argument. This is about the base armor stats.


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


...
the following Armors are competitive
...
Tatami-do$
...
$ requires an exeptionally highly dexterity focused build to be effective
...

Arent a number of medium Armors with Armored Kilt better than the Tatami-Dos? Still heavy armor, still 7 AC, but less weight, less ACP,... much cheaper.

Even an Agile Breastplate with the Kilt would be cheaper (by more than half) and weighs 10 lbs less, 2 less ACP, 10 % less AFC (Arcane Failure Chance) and much reduced ACP for climb/jump.

Then again you did include both the Silken Ceremonial Robes and Haramaki, despite one being more expensive AND heavier. So I guess it is more a list of feasable armors? Cause if one is clearly better than the other, doesnt that make the other not competative? Additionally Haramaki can be made of Adamantine...

Parade armor has everything studded leather has and gives a (narrow) diplomacy bonus on top.

Stoneplate is heavier, slower, and more expensive than full plate... did I miss something? You might not have to re-size it for each user.

Unless we are only considering AC in which case the list is quite perfect as is.

The Red Mage wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


Oriental Armor isn't too bad an issue with me

Oriental Armor generally trades base AC for a Max-Dex increase
...

Not so.

Haramaki and silken ceremonial have no arcane spell failure chance. It's power creep for full casters who really don't need more nice things. And they invalidate the armored kilt.

Do maru and horn lamellar is just better than scale mail. And kikko armor is just better than that.

Four-mirror armor is just better than chainmail by price, and steel lamellar by max dex bonus.

Stone coat is just better than half-plate by price.

And of course, you can save money using a tatami-do if you have a Dex of 14 or higher vs. buying full plate.

Whether or not any of these examples of power creep are competitive for optimizers doesn't matter. I still don't like it when new options literally invalidate older options.

And cheating proficiencies with special materials really falls outside of the realm of this argument. This is about the base armor stats.

I think the Armored Kilt was already power creep, and does much more than the asian version, as they can be added to other armors. including the asian ones!

How about combining the armored kilt with the silken ceremonial armor (I can not really imagine it with the bellywarmer togehter) for 0 ACP and 0 AFC? - Of course you would slow down from it, unless you are a Dwarf (given that its now medium armor. also only sleep in one of the two!)

The breastplate stays competative as it seems to continue to be the best medium armor, no? Scale mail was never really an option anyway, due to breastplate being so little more expensive. I will give you Kikko, that is quite a nice armor for someone with 18 dex... for 30 gp! what a deal! Also wit harmored kilt thats AC20 (10 base +4 des +5 armor +1 stackingarmor) just like that for 50 gp, same as a full Plate Armor with Dex 12 for 30 times as much Gold... wow. Cool find

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Did this get Necro'd again, just to have someone argue against another old hate of everything not western?

Scarab Sages

Yes, it did. Back to the OP, Four Mirror armor is much less labor intensive to make, because it replaces large swaths of very difficult to make chainmail with much easier to make metal plates. Slightly more weight for a reduction in cost and time to make to make is a choice many would make.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, basically, the general message of the thread turns out to be:

AAAAAASSSSIIIIAAAAAANNNSSSS! *shakes fist*

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Shifty wrote:

Chainmail 150 gp +6 +2 –5 30% 20 ft. 15 ft. 40 lbs.

4. Mir. armor 45 gp +6 +2 –5 30% 20 ft. 15 ft. 45 lbs.

So yes its just 5lbs heavier and 1/3 the price of 'Western chainmail'.

The same problem is found in the Elven Curve Blade being redundant to the Nodachi - and its 5 gold cheaper to boot.

That said, there is no guarantee the Eastern weapons are available in the campaign though.

That 5 lbs of greater weight may be an issue for marginal strength builds.

Scarab Sages

LazarX wrote:
Shifty wrote:

Chainmail 150 gp +6 +2 –5 30% 20 ft. 15 ft. 40 lbs.

4. Mir. armor 45 gp +6 +2 –5 30% 20 ft. 15 ft. 45 lbs.

So yes its just 5lbs heavier and 1/3 the price of 'Western chainmail'.

The same problem is found in the Elven Curve Blade being redundant to the Nodachi - and its 5 gold cheaper to boot.

That said, there is no guarantee the Eastern weapons are available in the campaign though.

That 5 lbs of greater weight may be an issue for marginal strength builds.

Yes but they shouldn't be using medium atom anyway.


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What did I create?


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Imbicatus wrote:
Yes, it did. Back to the OP, Four Mirror armor is much less labor intensive to make, because it replaces large swaths of very difficult to make chainmail with much easier to make metal plates. Slightly more weight for a reduction in cost and time to make to make is a choice many would make.

Think the concern is the blatant 'it's better' factor. Weight to some folks isn't a huge concern (remember, this is all medium armour so no 30' for non-barbarians). This reminds me of old 2d Edition where splint mail, for being 'inferior', was so cheap and protective. (Now it's clutter in the heavy armour table.)

An earlier post suggested 4-mirror was really put together from the piecemeal rules. Weird.

Oh, and Talonhawke? What you created is known as a 'monster'. See 'It's Alive', V Frankenstein, as well as 'How I Did It', ibid.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Talonhawke wrote:
What did I create?

Oh please. Threads aren't special until a paladin fall or fail clause comes into it.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Can a Paladin fall if he, and/or his gear, is too "oriental"?


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Yes. Because hentai.


Did the price for four-mirror armor actually change? or is it just this website: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/eastern-armor-and-shields ?

Edit: nope, PRD says so too... and Kikko isn't 30 gp anymore. Huh.


they made an errata a few weeks ago that changed it.


Cool, thanks for sharing. Somewhere in here I assume? http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhvx?FAQ-on-Errata

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The errata for Ultimate Combat.


I know this is pretty much a dead post… I saw a comment somewhere else about four mirror armor and I did not know what it was so I came here to look… I did see somebody say something about the nodaichi. Sorry folks. I love that weapon. Every barb I make uses it lol


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Necro'ed Again! Can someone burn the corpse this time to make sure it doesn't come back?


Not until some mod locks it... does it ever happen here?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Yep.


Ok, but. I didn't see anyone answer if you had to buy CHainmail first.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

No, it's not an add on, it's its own armor.


I swear I'm gonna have to turn this into an alignment thread or paladin thread or something to keep this thing down!

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