My problem with Bards is that I keep wanting to think of them as a combination of the Harpers of Pern and Dark Sun Bards and the circus from Octopussy. That is, their reputation is for their knowledge and assassination skills.
NOT as silly prancing boys
And yet no where in their write up is any need to sing or dance. At all. They gain some skill benefits in other skills for having the ability to do so -- but [b]performance is in no way linked to their primary abilities.
But,
- Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music).
- Bards get an ability called Countersong
- Bardic Performance is based on [i]Perform{/i]
- At 1st level, a bard can use his performance to counter magic effects that depend on sight
- At 1st level, a bard can use his performance to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him.
- Versatile Performance involves acting, comedy, dance, keyboard, oratory, percussion, singing, string, and wind and the bard will get four of these, making it impossible for him to have only oratory
The bard class, unquestionably, has a heavy 'silly, prancing boy' vibe to it.
1. Verbal component yes -- singing, reciting, or music? No more than any other spell caster.
2. Not every bard has that ability -- archetypes you've heard of them yes?3. No bardic performance is not based on the perform skill in any way. You spend a standard action activating it and then maintain it with a free action, but you do not have to prance, sing, or recite anything. It could be as simple as a shout of, "Onward!" or "Charge!"
4. Jack Sparrow does this several times throughout all the movies. Everyone just stops and stares at him and what he is doing... hm... same thing as fascinate.
5. Versatile performance allows you to use your background in performance to in act other skills -- this doesn't mean you are singing to the guy while trying to bluff him, or pounding on drums in order to intimidate him. Also again: Archetypes.
No where does he have to be 'silly' -- he can be -- no where does he have to 'prance' he can though if you want that for a character.
Don't blame the class for stereotypes you are incapable of thinking/looking past. That's your failure -- not one of the class.
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That's because it's a group of pissed off Scotsmen. Frankly I have seen that and it's not a pretty sight...
Until you realize it is all bark, no bite.
I agree, the the inspiration is dumb. I'm with the military and we have to go running a lot as a group. We have someone lead a Cadence (rythmatic song), which does two things. It (is suppossed to) keep everyone in step together, and it goes out of it's way to keep me from being able to do the one thing that would make me run better. Instea of letting you focus on and get lost in running, (the battle, the magic, etc. . .) it distracts you from being centered. So a Bard's Inspire is stupid.
:)
But it's a game.
Anyone see anywhere in the cut and paste below about Bardic Performance where it says anything about having it use the perform skill?
Bardic Performance : A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st a bard can use bardic performance for 2 additional rounds per day. Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level.
Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action. Changing a bardic performance from one effect to another requires the bard to stop the previous performance and start a new one as a standard action. A bardic performance cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the bard is killed, paralyzed , stunned , knocked unconscious , or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round. A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time.
At 7th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action. At 13th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a swift action.
Each bardic performance has audible components, visual components, or both.
If a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect, and such performances are language dependent. A deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with an audible component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Deaf creatures are immune to bardic performances with audible components.
If a bardic performance has a visual component, the targets must have line of sight to the bard for the performance to have any effect. A blind bard has a 50% chance to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with a visual component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Blind creatures are immune to bardic performances with visual components.
Bardic Performance : A bard is trained to use the Perform skill
And what's the DC for the bardic performance abilities? Required skill ranks? Any actual mechanical reason to have ranks in the perform skill?
I'm noticing that the people on here who don't like bards seem to have almost intentionally ridiculous perceptions of what bards are or what they do.A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired.All other abilities of the Bard I have no problem with. This bit though is just stupid. For example:
The charge was made by the Light Brigade of the British cavalry, consisting of the 4th and 13th Light Dragoons, 17th Lancers, and the 8th and 11th Hussars, under the command of Major General the Earl of Cardigan. Together with the Heavy Brigade comprising the 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards, the 5th Dragoon Guards, the 6th Inniskilling Dragoons and the Scots Greys. They were also accompanied by 2 companies of performance artists, a full jazz orchestra and half a dozen ballet dancers to boost morale.I stand by my point that bardic performance is stupid.
Napoleon himself, during the invasion of Egypt, requested ballet dancers and puppeteers be sent to boost morale. (Strathern, Napoleon in Egypt, 2009).
Fun fact, only the Countersong and Distraction abilities of Bardic Performance require Perform checks to use.
this may be splitting hairs, but the bard doesnt need the perform skill to use Countersong or distraction. They need a decent perform check for either of those abilities to have any chance of success.
it's a minor distinction, but they dont "Need" perform, it just helps a lot.
Edit: Upon further review, You do have to make a perrform check, but perform can be attempted untrained.
...I just said it needs a Perform check to use. I said nothing about having ranks in Perform.
Fair enough. You must use the check for Countersong and Distration only, but are not required to have any ranks in it.
Fun fact, only the Countersong and Distraction abilities of Bardic Performance require Perform checks to use.Fun fact, Versatile Performance uses the Perform skill.
I find it funny that while Bards have to Perform (dance and prance around) to inspire, they don't have to be good at performing.
That seems to validate the "Cpt'n Jack as Bard" argument.
Fun fact, only the Countersong and Distraction abilities of Bardic Performance require Perform checks to use.Fun fact, Versatile Performance uses the Perform skill.
I find it funny that while Bards have to Perform (dance and prance around) to inspire, they don't have to be good at performing.
Also irrelevant as versatile performance is not part of the Bardic Performance class ability. Versatile performance is a class ability in and of itself.
1. Pally- op compensated for by limiting to options.
2. Summoner- op attention hog who can beat everyone ever.
3. Bards- they just rub me the wrong way.
Whether or not Versatile Performance is part of Bardic Performance is irrelevant to the heavy silly, prancing boy vibe of the Bard class.Also irrelevant as versatile performance is not part of the Bardic Performance class ability. Versatile performance is a class ability in and of itself.Fun fact, only the Countersong and Distraction abilities of Bardic Performance require Perform checks to use.Fun fact, Versatile Performance uses the Perform skill.
I find it funny that while Bards have to Perform (dance and prance around) to inspire, they don't have to be good at performing.
Which is not what TOZ and I were talking about.
Edit: Which is the sub conversation you comented on.
There are still ways to stop you. I have learned so many dealing with a Come and Get Me Barbarian. But you can only toss in such means so often without it becoming massively cheesy. That's the hard part.
When a barbarian rage power is making dragons trivial, it shows you the game designers messed up badly. But I've still got your number.
Mage's Disjunction takes a lot of the bark out of your bite. So does massive negative levels. Have fun fighting a monk martial artist with punishing kick and lunge or Pushing Assault. The anti-Come and Get Me assault feat.
There are ways for dealing with barbarians. You may frighten other players,but I'm a DM. You don't frighten me. You fear me, I don't fear you. I am the ultimate power and I will find ways to make you suffer.
THIS AM WHY BARBARIAN GENERALLY LESS COME AND GET ME-Y AND MORE RAGELANCEPOUNCE-Y. AM LESS COUNTERS FOR "YOU DIE" THAN FOR "ATTACK ME AND YOU DIE."
BARBARIAN FEAR NO MAN, GOD OR CONCEPT. BARBARIAN AM RESPECTFUL OF GM, AND BARBARIAN GET THAT SPECIAL KIND OF FIAT AM OCCASIONALLY REQUIRED TO DEAL WITH BARBARIAN. AM UNFORTUNATE SIDE EFFECT OF BEING BEST CLASS. AM OKAY, BARBARIAN UNDERSTAND.
BARBARIAN ALSO RECOMMEND REACH WEAPON WITH LUNGE IF BARBARIAN AM LACKING RANGE. OR ARROWS. CHASM AM USELESS, BARBARIAN JUST JUMP AND CLIMB UP.
*Offers AM BARBARIAN a Roast Beef sandwich on Sourdough* i beleive you forgot your lunch. now you can become even more overpowered with this sandwich. it contains 10 minutes of inspire courage if you eat it for 10 minutes straight.
SANDWICH NOT SMELL LIKE TEA...
OH WELL. BARBARIAN KNEW AM NOT SMASH BARDS FOR REASON. OH RIGHT. BECAUSE THEY AM BETTER SORCERER THAN SORCERER.
SANDWICH NOT SMELL LIKE TEA...
OH WELL. BARBARIAN KNEW AM NOT SMASH BARDS FOR REASON. OH RIGHT. BECAUSE THEY AM BETTER SORCERER THAN SORCERER.
the power isn't in the Tea, it's in the bread. ever had a Tea Ceremony without something bread related? it should really be called Bread Ceremony.
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Fun fact, only the Countersong and Distraction abilities of Bardic Performance require Perform checks to use.Fun fact, Versatile Performance uses the Perform skill.
I find it funny that while Bards have to Perform (dance and prance around) to inspire, they don't have to be good at performing.
Perform(Comedy), Perform(Oratory), and Perform(Sing) which includes things like chants -- none of these require a bard to "dance and prance around" in order to apply inspire buffs. I have never seen a bard played that fit the "silly prancing boy" stereotype that you insist that bards have. In fact, the bard that I played a year or so ago was often confused for a cleric.
You're arguing against a figment of your own imagination at this point.
YA know , there is a lot of bard hate, but I have played bards who used mystic chants and wardances along with battles cries. He was more celtic/Native America war chief then dancing flute player.
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My favorite bard was a half-orc arcane duelist. He took Perform (Oratory) and Intimidate as his two primary skills, had skill focus (intimidate), enforcer, intimidating prowess and a merciful sword. He would hit them with merciful and auto-pass the intimidation check granted by enforcer to cause them to be shaken, but because it was a rapier it would often critical which (because of enforcer) also makes them frightened for one round.
Didn't work on everything, but only because some enemies are immune to fear. The guy had a +2 cha mod and a +5 str mod at around level 7, so his intimidate was off the charts (~+20 at level 7). By the time he would fight something, he could scare it on a natural 1. By 20th level he was on track for a bonus in the 40s.
His performs were all about yelling at people (drill sergeant style).
With the exception of the master summoner archetype, the summoner can't use its summon monster ability while its eidolon is present, and even then, it can't have more than one of those summons active at a time. And the bonuses given to the eidolon by the evolution surge spell are no more complicated than what most buffers can do.
I have read the summon monster spell and I do not see where it states that only one summon spell can be active at any one time from the same caster. Can you quote something to back this up?
For example, are you suggesting that a wizard cannot have more than one summon spell active at the same time? If this is in the rules, it is news to me.
EDIT: I am aware that the summoner class has a restriction on using his summon monster spell like ability more than once at the same time.
With the exception of the master summoner archetype, the summoner can't use its summon monster ability while its eidolon is present, and even then, it can't have more than one of those summons active at a time. And the bonuses given to the eidolon by the evolution surge spell are no more complicated than what most buffers can do.I have read the summon monster spell and I do not see where it states that only one summon spell can be active at any one time from the same caster. Can you quote something to back this up?
For example, are you suggesting that a wizard cannot have more than one summon spell active at the same time? If this is in the rules, it is news to me.
the summoner's summon monster ability is a supernatural ability and has different restrictions.
the summoner's summon monster ability is a supernatural ability and has different restrictions.
With the exception of the master summoner archetype, the summoner can't use its summon monster ability while its eidolon is present, and even then, it can't have more than one of those summons active at a time. And the bonuses given to the eidolon by the evolution surge spell are no more complicated than what most buffers can do.I have read the summon monster spell and I do not see where it states that only one summon spell can be active at any one time from the same caster. Can you quote something to back this up?
For example, are you suggesting that a wizard cannot have more than one summon spell active at the same time? If this is in the rules, it is news to me.
A more careful read of Erato's post shows that he/she was indeed referring to the spell-like ability of the Summoner rather than their spells per day. My bad. I withdraw my previous question.
the SLA is nice, but i think the eidolon is technically a better combatant than anything the SLA can provide. with the Exception of what you get from Gate. and you can just call your eidolon to your temporarily with a 2nd level spell. thus treating it as a scaling summon monster that provides a better creature.
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Could i get a link to that if you have one.
Elements of Magic, from ENWorld Publishing, is, IMO, the gold-standard for this sort of modular magic system.
PDF ie here. I'm not sure where to get the print version right off...
This thread was made after the favorite classes thread, yet has over twice as many replies. Just something I noticed.
Edit: I was reading the minor flame war above and saw a whole lot of hate for the bard. May I remind you that while the MECHANICS of the class say something, you can interpret it ENTIRELY different. For example, so what if you're making a bardic performance with perform(sing), maybe you are simply channeling your arcane knowledge into battle and making a magic buff to your allies this way? Rule 0 states that this is YOUR game. So what if you don't want to be prancing mistral for brave sir robin? You don't have to be. A class is only tied to it's fluff as much as you allow it to be. There is nothing stopping you from saying that your abilities work mechanically the same way (it's balance right?) while ignoring the flavor behind them. Your bard can be a gish! It's okay! It's a game! Have fun!
This thread was made after the favorite classes thread, yet has over twice as many replies. Just something I noticed
How many posts about a bard has to be a prancing dancing fop were there in that thread?
Folks post there but come here to argue when you vilify their sacred cow.
Bard - Useful in urban settings only.
the power isn't in the Tea, it's in the bread. ever had a Tea Ceremony without something bread related? it should really be called Bread Ceremony.SANDWICH NOT SMELL LIKE TEA...
OH WELL. BARBARIAN KNEW AM NOT SMASH BARDS FOR REASON. OH RIGHT. BECAUSE THEY AM BETTER SORCERER THAN SORCERER.
Hey, that's good. Can I barrow this?
i played a Bard as a Baron's Highly Educated yet Sickly Niece with Tuberculosis, Asthma and Anemia. she Dumped Strength and Constitution and focused on intellegence and charisma. both a face and sage of sorts who couldn't do much physical stuff without being interrupted by hacking spells where she coughed up blood or developing spontaneous mini fevers. she couldn't fight her way out of a paper bag, but she could serve to support anyone as an amazing support build.
she was frail and helpless, and didn't so much dress like a F.O.P. as much as a gothic victorian era porcelain doll.
Hey, that's good. Can I barrow this?the power isn't in the Tea, it's in the bread. ever had a Tea Ceremony without something bread related? it should really be called Bread Ceremony.SANDWICH NOT SMELL LIKE TEA...
OH WELL. BARBARIAN KNEW AM NOT SMASH BARDS FOR REASON. OH RIGHT. BECAUSE THEY AM BETTER SORCERER THAN SORCERER.
Yes. you can.
I've seen a bard that refused to put any ranks in perform skills. He was so hideously terrible at music that the party fought better in the hope that he would stop trying to inspire them.
:D
'Follow' doesn't work?
Let's see ... does suggestion work on animals?
Can suggestion surpass language barriers?
Can suggestion fully subvert free-will and turn targets into marionettes?
Nope.
Doesn't seem to work.
For the record, though, my complaint lies chiefly in the fact that "dancing, prancing, pretty, sing-y boy" is really NOT supported by the mechanics.
I WANT to see a guy rip through battle and SING, yes SING his enemies into submission.
I mean, like border-line Banshee from X-Men fame here at the higher end of things.
I want to see a guy dance and have a sort of "Uncontrollable Dance" effect take hold of his enemies, making them all more vulnerable targets in combat.
I want to see the guy pick up a lute and strum notes on it directed towards his enemies to strike them deaf, dumb, and blind all in one stroke because the NOTES are pure magical harmony and dischord wrapped all into one and it, literally, breaks the minds of the targets (that fail saves of course) that hear it.
I want to see performance MADE into genuine magic, and not a foot note, and I want to see mechanics make THAT into a reality for the bard. Not this ... pseudo "almost skilled at everything" stuff that we currently have. I want to see an epic "performance" based class that is SO good at his schtick (and no, his schtick is NOT being a semi-caster, or almost a skill-monkey, or anything else) that if he brings that schtick into play offensively, he's every bit as devastating to face as anything else you can imagine encountering ... BECAUSE of his performance skills being THAT damn good.
Sorry, +X bonuses to allies just does NOT cut it. Limited spell casting as arcane/divine, likewise does not cut it. That's not giving a "bard" his due, and it's not even hitting the description properly of what it's stated class dosier says it is supposed to be representing.
My objection is based fully around the flavor and sensibilities of the class that is described being at odds with what is mechanically made feasible.
Mechanically, it's solid and works as everyone has been saying it can work (minus you, Darkwing - Fail on "suggestion" over mice by the rules - it can't do that). It's a good support - the best, really, at the higher levels w/the speedy action to get the performance up and running. It's lame as hell, but it works mechanically. Even not putting many points into the performance skill - valid. Weird, but valid by the mechanics. NONE of that, however, provides me with anything to like about this class as being representative of a "bard" in the least.
Note: I hold an equally special deep, dark pit of disdain for 2e and pretty much EVERY version of a bard I've ever encountered. I've not seen a 4e bard, but I imagine that given the paradigm shift of that game overall there will be a far superior treatment of the Bard in that system that would be more to my liking overall (even though I loathe the system beyond all else period). With all of the focus on powers of "at will" and "daily" and the like, I'd be surprised to NOT see powers that are far closer to what I'm envisioning to be there for the bard to make use of.
Note #2: I am quite aware that I am extremely discriminating and exacting in defining what I want a bard to do, but so what? We're talking about a world where a guy w/a sword can lop off dragon's heads in like 6 seconds or so just by closing to combat, others can get crazy-nuts in combat and practically lift a castle wall single handed, magic is real and POWERFUL ... and yet we have yet to see a functional execution of the "magic of music" or anything close to it.
I feel perfectly entitled to my righteous indignation in this shortcoming of the class design. I feel even MORE justified by seeing the music/performance down played and relegated to 2nd fiddle while the class gets access to MAGIC full tilt, but NOT as focused through his performance ... AT ALL!!!
Nah ... they dropped the ball. The dropped the ball back in 1e, and have been consistently fumbling the HELL out of the thing ever since.
I want the "magic music" there and on full display.
I want to see the 1-gloved hand snap up into the air mid-combat and a whole grouping of enemies follow suit and start to dance according to the whims of the moon-walking master that compels them to do so.
Until I'm seeing performance capable of pulling off feats like that, I'm not going to be happy with ANY version of a bard people put out there.
:shrugs:
NOTE $#3: Again - note that this doesn't say that other's can't play the exisiting "wish I was a bard" bard class, or that the mechanics that govern it are made of fail. It works ... but that's not at all what *I* want the bard to do, or the role I feel it should occupy.
A long rant about epic bardness
Why can't you say your sorcerer uses the power of music do all of what you just said? Not trying to put you down, but all of what you expressed sounds mechanically possible with the sorcerer, sure it says "bloodline X" on the tin, but the only limit here is your (and possibly your DM's) imagination, you can totally have an enchantment focused sorcerer (hell even a wizard) do all of that and tell the DM where the power source of your character comes from.
Wear a tux into combat.
Your verbal components is the sound of organs.
Night on bald mount actually happens when your maestro stands on a hilltop.
Your sound bursts are explosions of violins
Your irresistible dances are fueled by your maniacal laughter as the evil creatures stand confused as to what is happening.
You control reality with your spell caster. Nothing says you can't control what the manifestation of that control is.
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I hate Ninja/Samurai/anything Eastern. The monk I can handle, because nearly every culture at some point has had an equivalent. The Greeks gave us wrestling, the English Bartitsu, and in more recent times the Israelis Krav-Maga and the American Marine Corps developed their own martial arts program. (Although admittedly both are influenced by several eastern varieties of martial arts.) So with a tweak here and there I can make the monk fit the theme I want.
But there is no western equivalent to the Ninja or the Samurai. They're distinctly associated with Japanese culture. And like everything else in geekdom, there's an obnoxious assumption that anything Eastern is better. so the mechanics are written up to make it better, whether or not that makes any sense. The Ninja becomes a better rogue, the Samurai a better Cavalier. (In fairness, that's not saying a whole helluva lot.)
All of the weapons are better for no reason. The armor is better, even if it would technically be inferior. It drives me effing crazy. Some things in Asia were better, and yeah, they had pretty much invented the printing press when Europeans thought the devil made the sun go away every night, but none of that is ever going to make what is essentially the same sword do more damage.
Also the Gunslinger, but that's simply my bias against steampunk mixing with high fantasy. I like steampunk, but I like it in its own era, separate from magic and dragons. And the Gunslinger feels too much like somebody spilled a little steampunk in my high fantasy.
@EntrerisShadow
To be fair the rogue needed a more powerful version of itself, what we didn't need is the asian fluff that goes with it, currently i am in the proccess of changing* the ninja into fitting my more standard view of DnD.
*Apart from refluffing it needs a few mechanic changes because some ninja things can't stand very well along with a wizard and fighter with longsword (katana prof. i am looking at you)
