Shuriken, you receive praise from me. You show a lot of sense despite Voodoomike bordering on insulting you for being a "powergamer". And really, I agree with you on him inflating the value of attributes. Anyway, I just wanted to say that I gave all my races racials that FIT THE CONCEPT. I am by no means a power-gamer, and I usually snap at them, but I also snap at people who pick ridiculous options and then whine that they cannot play as dead weight in the group. (Basket Weavers)
There should be a middle ground of viable gameplay and roleplay value. This usually applies more to class, but it also applies to races as well. Also, seeing as what happened last time I said something this blasphemous around here, I'll be off somewhere else while the flames are being directed towards this post here. *Calmly walks off*
Thoughts?
Sorry your thread got jacked. On the subject of drow, removing SR is fine. I'd add +2 resistance to poison, in flavor of their poison use. It would tip the scale a bit past 10 RP, but I don't think that all races should be measured against that standard (as not all abilities are equal, and the RP costs aren't perfect).
The human ability to get an additional skill point also scales since it increases by level. If you only got one extra skill point no matter how many character levels you had then it would be a flat bonus.It represents a flat value because it would cost a flat amount to gain the benefit in terms of the aformentioned resources. An item that gave a flat +2 Int bonus would give you +1 skill point per level, and the cost for that item would not change between levels. In terms of the ARG, the +2 int bonus would indisputably cost the same amount of RP regardless of other factors.
The same cannot be said for SR 11, SR 21, and SR 31. This is true if you price out a magic item to accomplish the task - the value expressed as gold pieces (for lack of a better medium) changes depending on the SR number, but does not change when, say, the +2 CON bonus the item gives provides +20 hp at level 20 as compared to +1 at level 1.
Lets try to avoid arguments about the definition of words that involve divorcing them from the specific context.
What definition did I use that was incorrect?
The value in GP is not the point of discussion. The point is whether or not something that increases in value(in and itself, not related to gp value) is a scaling or flat bonus.
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I think the 14 point version is fine, when you consider the roleplaying-based issue with drow that causes them significant social issues in most campaigns.
About the only setting where it's not a problem is one where it's all drow, in which case the problem is solved because the balance is maintained within the party.
Wow, I was almost ready to type up a rebuttal to VoodooMike and then I noticed that conversation took place last October. Damn stealth necro...
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Wow, I was almost ready to type up a rebuttal to VoodooMike and then I noticed that conversation took place last October. Damn stealth necro...
Sorry, I don't post that often, and I don't remember to look at the dates of previous posts all the time.
Plus, most of the topics on this playtest are several months old, so if you contribute anything it's going to be to an old topic, unless you start your own.
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SR is terrible if you can't heal yourself easily.
On the other hand, it's great for RP and tactics because of the same reason. When I played in a drow party, it's always fun to see one drow lower his SR and ready actions to kill the drow cleric in case the cleric wanted to cast a harmful spell.
Not to mention -2 CON. - to CON always pisses me off.
SR is terrible if you can't heal yourself easily.
On the other hand, it's great for RP and tactics because of the same reason. When I played in a drow party, it's always fun to see one drow lower his SR and ready actions to kill the drow cleric in case the cleric wanted to cast a harmful spell.
Not to mention -2 CON. - to CON always pisses me off.
I wouldn't say it is terrible.
One can still drink a potion to heal oneself as...A creature's spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities. So, a potion one with SR has or a potion that someone gives to one with SR would work. One can't take a potion if unconscious but another could pour down the throat of an unconscious character a potion belonging to said character.
Channeling is supernatural and bypasses spell resistance. Clerics can channel, as can paladins, as can life oracles. A paladin's Laying on of Hands is also supernatural. The trait allowing the stabilization of characters (sacred touch?) is supernatural.
So, although it might (actually, it most likely will occasionally) occur that a character without SR would receive a healing spell and attack in the same round whereas a creature with SR would need to use a standard action (giving up its attack) to lower resistance to receive a spell, I don't think that is anything that judicious use of other means couldn't fix.
With regard to readying to kill the cleric for casting a harmful spell, I see such happening even if the character had no SR to lower. *shrug*
If one trusts its party, I don't see a problem. If not, I don't see it making that much difference.
End of day: Is drow needing a 'nerf'? no.
Are they perfectly ok for play? I think so.
They wouldn't be terribly effective in every campaign though... they would be situational.
Is there a PFS boon for them?
SR is 10+character level with the key being the + level part. That's a scaling bonus, and since it represents an ability that characters don't normally get, it can't be described in terms of a flat bonus.
Humans gains one extra skill point per level. Normally I wouldn't care about this kind of thing, but you're being extraordinarily rude about this issue, so I thought I'd point out the largest flaw in yoru logic. Now please, be respectful and don't accuse people of being stupid because they don't agree with your point of view (and that's exactly what you're doing when you say "This is the only way you'll wrap your head around it").
There is a difference between SR and many other racial abilities, but it's still on par with many other abilites, such as the human's +1 skill point per level, or the Gnomes' spell like abilities having caster levels = to their hit dice. But SR is one of those things that people are of two minds about. I personally also homebrew the SR out of drow (and dwarves) when I let them be played at all (drow usually don't exist in my games) because I also feel that it's a little too powerful for a player race. The reason I feel this way is that, yes, it also works against friendly spells, but most of the time, the players in my games are taking spells from the enemy rather than from friends, making it more useful than detrimental. But then again, that's what homebrew is for. Its so people can run the games they want. I mean, I homebrew Sneak attack so the damage only applies once per round, instead of once per attack, because I feel that rogues are WAY overpowered. But that's just my game, and that's how I run it.
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SR is a penalty. when you get higher level, it means you can't use those cure wands anymore. meaning that the healer has to use thier actual spell slots. limiting thier combat ability and thier adventure day to keep YOU alive. a standard action spent lowering your resistance is a delay in party overland travel. which is an issue in dynamic campaigns.
SR is a penalty. when you get higher level, it means you can't use those cure wands anymore. meaning that the healer has to use thier actual spell slots. limiting thier combat ability and thier adventure day to keep YOU alive. a standard action spent lowering your resistance is a delay in party overland travel. which is an issue in dynamic campaigns.
That isn't how SR works at all.
SR is a penalty. when you get higher level, it means you can't use those cure wands anymore. meaning that the healer has to use thier actual spell slots. limiting thier combat ability and thier adventure day to keep YOU alive. a standard action spent lowering your resistance is a delay in party overland travel. which is an issue in dynamic campaigns.That isn't how SR works at all.
a Wand works as per the spell with the exception that you use the wands caster level and the wand is the caster. a wand of CLW typically has a caster level of 1st. meaning +1 VS Spell resistance. wands use the bare minimum.
CLW applies spell resistance.
6+level increases with level. lets say you were level 7 (where these wands are relatively commonplace). the drow would have an SR of 13, wand user has to roll a 12, while at level 3, they had to roll an 8.
it's a standard action to lower your spell resistance.
a standard action cuts your movement in overland travel in half by consuming what could have been another move action. it is also a wasted combat action if that applies.
this creates a potential delay in overland travel.
because the SR scales and the wands caster level doesn't. the wand will be progressively harder to use. in other words, a scaling penalty.
SR is a penalty. when you get higher level, it means you can't use those cure wands anymore. meaning that the healer has to use thier actual spell slots. limiting thier combat ability and thier adventure day to keep YOU alive. a standard action spent lowering your resistance is a delay in party overland travel. which is an issue in dynamic campaigns.That isn't how SR works at all.a Wand works as per the spell with the exception that you use the wands caster level and the wand is the caster. a wand of CLW typically has a caster level of 1st. meaning +1 VS Spell resistance. wands use the bare minimum.
CLW applies spell resistance.
6+level increases with level. lets say you were level 7 (where these wands are relatively commonplace). the drow would have an SR of 13, wand user has to roll a 12, while at level 3, they had to roll an 8.
it's a standard action to lower your spell resistance.
a standard action cuts your movement in overland travel in half by consuming what could have been another move action. it is also a wasted combat action if that applies.
this creates a potential delay in overland travel.
because the SR scales and the wands caster level doesn't. the wand will be progressively harder to use. in other words, a scaling penalty.
Sorry, I read that as in the character with SR was the one using the wand. You don't have to lower SR to use a wand on yourself. If a separate healer is using the wand, then you are indeed correct.
Sounds like you're stretching the bounds of the term "overland travel", though; you're clearly talking about tactical movement (i.e., on the scale of combat), not what most consider overland travel (on the scale of traveling the countryside). Unless your group actually uses the tactical scale for travel, in which case I want whatever you're using for a tabletop. : D
i guess i meant tactical movement, but you can get ambushed at any point while traveling overland, but we don't use the tactical side for travel, unless we are traveling through a dungeon, pass, or similar hazardous terrain, which itself can be considered tactical.
Sorry, I read that as in the character with SR was the one using the wand. You don't have to lower SR to use a wand on yourself. If a separate healer is using the wand, then you are indeed correct.
This assumes the user of the wand is the caster. Many would say the wand is the caster for purposes of such things since the caster level of the wand is what is determined when bypassing SR would come into play as an example.
I would not make someone using a wand make an SR check against themselves, but I can't find any rules to support that. Of course I did not try very hard either.
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Sorry, I read that as in the character with SR was the one using the wand. You don't have to lower SR to use a wand on yourself. If a separate healer is using the wand, then you are indeed correct.
This assumes the user of the wand is the caster. Many would say the wand is the caster for purposes of such things since the caster level of the wand is what is determined when bypassing SR would come into play as an example.
I would not make someone using a wand make an SR check against themselves, but I can't find any rules to support that. Of course I did not try very hard either.
A wand is an item and thus you can use it yourself and not be effected by your own SR. But never mind healing, as healing in combat tends to be as a last resort kind of thing. What I'm talking about is spell buffs like haste, fly etc. To receive the benefits like haste, can resist the spell unless said person waste an action to lower his or her resistance.
sorry, but i just don't see a class that actually uses every stat in a meaningful way.+4 to all stats and +2 natural armor turns into +2 to all rolls, +2 to all DCs and all Saves, +2 hp per level, and +4 overall to AC. I'm quite certain that all classes can benefit from that just fine and, in fact, benfit from it very nicely especially at lower levels. A caster may not gain access to higher level spells, but will certainly gain access to plenty more bonus spells with their casting stat going up by 4.
Because obviously those lower level PCs wouldn't want stuff like hit points, or the ability to not be TPKed by a cloudkill or sleep spell, or other effect based on HD of the target. And of course there's the fact that you need 8 additional points in your key stat just to get a bonus 1st level spell. (20 gives +2, 28 gives +3, 36 gives +4, etc). You'd need to take the advanced template twice before you hit an extra 1st level spell. Actually gaining levels means you get Hp, HD, and much better spell progression.
From your past threads it is pretty obvious to me that you're a ridiculous powergamer that has spent a lot of time downplaying, to GMs, the benefits you try to heap on your characters. I note that, despite all this downplaying, you don't seem disinterested in having those benefits-you-claim-aren't-really-benefits.
Ok, there's no reason to listen to your posts from here on out. This was the most damning thing I've heard to your argument in this whole thread. You don't even understand proper mathematical scaling, but you accuse Lumiere Solas of being a "ridiculous powergamer" because s/he knows something about the game? Fail. Epic. Fail.