Archer summoner, Natural attacks Eidolon.


Advice


Level 3.
I want to make a kid summoner that has his eidolon watch over him. That's why I want to dump wisdom because a kid wouldn't be wise.

Stats: Dex highest, Cha, con, str, int, wis.
Race: Human, Halfing,Fetchling.
Feats:augment summoning, Point blank shot, Precise shot, rapid shot?
Trait:
Weapon: crossbow, bow?
Spells: Enlarge person, mage armor.
Eidolon:
Need a lot of help here.


Go Half elf take ancestral weaponry alternate feature. Now you're proficient in bows without burning a feat.


Be medium if you want your weapon as main attack.

Don't worry about Augment Summoning unless you go Master Summoner (who gets it for free), at least not until the spell versions jump at 5th/6th.

Enlarge Person? On Eidolon? (won't augment missile weapon)
Mage Armor? Again, on Eidolon? (you can wear light armor)

Not sure which direction you're going, or if you want to do all three modestly.
Archer w/ pet? Mostly archer feats, higher Str. for composite bow, lower Cha (buffs over Save spells), long duration buffs for eidolon who keeps foes at bay, tentacles/pits also to keep foes at bay.
Spells focused on long term buffs and battlefield control, but most time spent shooting
UMD for Gravity Bow
Eidolon: Biped, Reach, bite, nat. armor, Combat Reflexes, PA, maybe push or grab-claw

Pet w/ archer? Long & short term buffs for eidolon, Quadruped, pounce, claws, armor, PA, Dodge, maybe grab/trip.
Spells focused on short term buffs on eidolon in first rounds w/ some for utility/tricks/control, then shooting later to pick off wounded.
2/3 archer feats, maybe some feats to aid eidolon, Extend Spell (or rod)

Summoner who has bow & pet? Master Summoner, use lightly buffed Eidolon as defense, other critters as offense. Get Pt. Blank & Precise Shot, and little else for archery. UMD wands w/ ray spells (Skill focus UMD if 1/2 Elf) Maybe small size for accuracy.
Spells focused on battlefield control, haste, few buffs
'mass' enhancement doesn't stack w/ augment so avoid
Hopefully have Cleric w/ area heals/bless/prayer or bard
Eidolon: 1/2 strength and in back, so maybe choose UMD as class skill and add +8 skill Evol for wand from back, or maybe have it be a mount.
Think Eldritch Heritage...

All 3? Mix and match as you like to the degree you like

Rapid Shot not as good w/ low BAB, but if you get your Dex really high, take it.
Precise Shot needed.
Keep up AC/h.p. so you can safely stay within 30' for PB Shot.
Deadly Aim. Only if you shoot more than cast.

If outside a lot, consider using Eidolon as mount (and being small) for great maneuverability, and Master Summoner.
Heavy Crossbow w/ Vital Strike/Deadly Aim/Rapid Reload (and no Pt. Bl. Feats) gives a good punch with little need for Strength (though I prefer high Str/bow option).
Anyway, I'm up way too late, gotta go.


Castilliano wrote:


Be medium if you want your weapon as main attack.

Don't worry about Augment Summoning unless you go Master Summoner (who gets it for free), at least not until the spell versions jump at 5th/6th.

Enlarge Person? On Eidolon? (won't augment missile weapon)
Mage Armor? Again, on Eidolon? (you can wear light armor)

Not sure which direction you're going, or if you want to do all three modestly.
Archer w/ pet? Mostly archer feats, higher Str. for composite bow, lower Cha (buffs over Save spells), long duration buffs for eidolon who keeps foes at bay, tentacles/pits also to keep foes at bay.
Spells focused on long term buffs and battlefield control, but most time spent shooting
UMD for Gravity Bow
Eidolon: Biped, Reach, bite, nat. armor, Combat Reflexes, PA, maybe push or grab-claw

Pet w/ archer? Long & short term buffs for eidolon, Quadruped, pounce, claws, armor, PA, Dodge, maybe grab/trip.
Spells focused on short term buffs on eidolon in first rounds w/ some for utility/tricks/control, then shooting later to pick off wounded.
2/3 archer feats, maybe some feats to aid eidolon, Extend Spell (or rod)

Summoner who has bow & pet? Master Summoner, use lightly buffed Eidolon as defense, other critters as offense. Get Pt. Blank & Precise Shot, and little else for archery. UMD wands w/ ray spells (Skill focus UMD if 1/2 Elf) Maybe small size for accuracy.
Spells focused on battlefield control, haste, few buffs
'mass' enhancement doesn't stack w/ augment so avoid
Hopefully have Cleric w/ area heals/bless/prayer or bard
Eidolon: 1/2 strength and in back, so maybe choose UMD as class skill and add +8 skill Evol for wand from back, or maybe have it be a mount.
Think Eldritch Heritage...

All 3? Mix and match as you like to the degree you like

Rapid Shot not as good w/ low BAB, but if you get your Dex really high, take it.
Precise Shot needed.
Keep up AC/h.p. so you can safely stay within 30' for PB Shot.
Deadly Aim. Only if you shoot more than cast.

If outside a lot, consider...

My Elly can't be out with other monsters unless I invest in SM spells or SE spells. I want to be a decent buffer, have an Elly that beats things to a pulp, and have something to do at lower levels when not casting. I'm wondering what's the best way to go, pouncer quad, biped natural, or biped weapon?

Dark Archive

Biped natural generally, get Bite / Reach (Bite) / Natural Amor is best to start. Having reach lifetime with Trip stops a lot of attacks, especially as you get the 15 foot reach at large (pounce-quads don't get the reach fast). Pounce lines are also hard to set up once Eidilon is large, and the higher strength makes you better out of box. Take toughness @ 1, Combat reflexes @ 3 (or more flavorful combat reflexes @ 1, bodyguard @ 3).

Net throwing is amazing, and can be gotten as a human or half-elf via alt traits. I recommend half-elf, the 1/4 evolution point favored class bonus is amazing if you are keeping elly out all the time. With bow you'll be a bit MAD and use up all your feats (which can be burned for Additional Evolution... by 5 you can have 3 extra evolution points on Elly, a full 1/3rd extra).

Basically you're a kid who doesn't like to hurt things (you throw nets and run away) but have a nursemaid who mauls anyone who bullies you.


Black_Lantern wrote:
I want to make a kid summoner that has his eidolon watch over him. That's why I want to dump wisdom because a kid wouldn't be wise.

I applaud your character concept. However you build it, it sounds like it will be a lot of fun to play.

The two builds I'd go for are:

  • Halfling with the Warslinger racial trait (making , and a quadruped eidolon you frequently ride. This Warslinger version has high mobility, high hit, lower shooting damage.

  • Elf Longbow (or half-elf with the Ancestral Weapons racial trait), and a bipedal eidolon with reach. The bow version has a good "personal tank" pet, and higher shooting damage.


TarkXT wrote:

Go Half elf take ancestral weaponry alternate feature. Now you're proficient in bows without burning a feat.

Really that's still like burning a feat, mechanically. Compare that to a human who gets a bonus feat and spends it on Martial Weapon Proficiency. Both of them have the same number of remaining feats afterwards.

If you want a proficiency without burning any sort of feat, get Heirloom Weapon character trait. There's a few issues with this in PFS, but if its for a home game, you should be fine... speaking of which, which is this character for?

I still prefer pounce-quads for Eidolons. When you want the Eidolon to defend you, being able to move it from point A to point B and still deliver full-attacks is pretty important; unless you plan to always keep it right next to you (and thus gimp its DPR anyway). The argument that "it becomes hard to keep pounce lines open" is kind of a strange point, when you compare it to something that can't pounce period. It's still more versatile to be capable of pouncing, even if it becomes a little harder to do (and even then, tactical thinking can compensate); mechanically its still superior to having a STR mod that's only 1 higher. Also... you can ride a quad but not a biped, which is a surprisingly effective advantage as well.

Just my two cents.


Kazejin wrote:
TarkXT wrote:

Go Half elf take ancestral weaponry alternate feature. Now you're proficient in bows without burning a feat.

Really that's still like burning a feat, mechanically. Compare that to a human who gets a bonus feat and spends it on Martial Weapon Proficiency. Both of them have the same number of remaining feats afterwards.

But only the half elf gets low light vision, immunity to sleep, bonus to perception and +2 saving throws against enchantment effects, and a favored class bonus that gives the eidolon more evolution points.

Now you have saved yourself a trait.


If you'll be mounted, be a halfling. Consider Outrider for +2 Ride and Handle Animal instead of +2 Acrobatics and Climb. Warslinger is also good.

If not, be a human or half-elf. If you're a half-elf, you can also exchange Skill Focus for +2 to Will saves (NOT Iron Will, so you could take both.), compensating for you dumping Wis.

Otherwise I agree with everyone that human and half-elf are the two best races for the Summoner.

Scarab Sages

Having played a PFS ready Summoner using a Half Elf build, alternate trait for the Ancestral Weapon, and Heavy Repeating Crossbows, I will say this:

DO NOT DO IT.

By level 6, I found that I never shot the crossbow. I was either buffing my Bipedal Slam-bot Eidolon, buffing a party member, casting a crowd control spell, or wishing I had about any of 500 other feats than the crap I spent on being able to use a bow. And I wasn't a slouch at bow shooting either, I might add.

My build had 16 dex, HRC plus PointBlankShot, plus Deadly Aim plus +1 HRC meant like 1d10+5 or so damage from the bow if within 30 feet, and thats where most PFS combats occur. It was built right, but the problem was that my Eidolon did so much damage with its 2 slams and iterative attacks that frankly the d10+5 was rather pointless in most situations, assuming I hit in the first place.

As I mentioned..by level 6 I was rarely thinking "Boy, I sure wish I had my Crossbow right about now!" and was usually thinking something along the lines of "damn, if only my save DC didnt suck so bad" or "Jeez, I kinda wish I had taken some MetaMagic feats" or "Nuts, wish my AC was higher because the BBEG knows that he cant beat my eidolon but if he pounds on my lousy AC and knocks me out the Eidolon goes away!".

I imagine it would be the same even if you chose Short Bow or Long Bow over the HRC...altho I don't see why you would.

Focus instead on being impossible to hit and tough to kill...keep away from combat and let the Eidolon do you your damage.

Cast spells...its what you do.


If you're a Master Summoner, your elly can be out with other monsters.
You elly is just based on 1/2 your level, so grows very weak (and so can hold a wand in the back row w/ you), but in turn your Summons are more frequent.

Quantity over quality. I generally side with quality, but if you have allies that buff the whole party (namely Bard) or debuff the dangerous enemies, then quantity can be fun. (Though you'll have to juggle lots of stats, and adjust for those buffs.)

It sounds like your really don't want an archer, but rather a backup action while your Eidolon plays. If the bow is a side thing, don't bother beyond (maybe) Pt. Blank Shot/Precise Strike (at midlevel, alchemy;high level, UMD wands) and maybe stick with crossbow so you don't use resources getting bow proficiency and don't have to worry about Str so much.
Think about Teamwork Feats w/ your buddy, especially the one that gives your Eidolon +1d6 Sneak Attack. With three attacks, and more coming quickly, he'll chew right through anybody who goes around him and gets flanked.
If you like the Teamwork option, go Biped with reach to control the area around you (and give you Shield Ally from farther away).
If you like sending your elly out and about, go Quadruped and think about Dodge-Mobility to make his pounce lanes safer.
Either way, don't forget to make UMD one of its class skills, maybe even Diplomacy or Linguistics if the party needs it.

Dark Archive

I did the net; and I still use it very rarely. But as said above, you have plenty to do, I wish I had gotten +2 will instead of the net, my saves suck :).


I'm wondering what's up with the summoner having such low skill points? I played a malconvoker in last 3.5 game and I felt that I had everything covered. When I think of a summoner I think of lingiustics, UMD, spellcraft, knowledge planes, knowledge arcana, diplomacy, and bluff. Why do they get 2 skill points per level basically? Also we're not going that high so Idk if the extra evolution points are really worth it considering I won't get one till 4th level.

Which one is less likely to get beat down in a single round? biped because it has great reach? quad because of mobility?

feats:
Extra Evolution
Improved Init?
Augmented summoning for backup?

What are all of the ways to get extra evolution points?
Extra Evolution?
Half elf favored class alternative.
???

Bonuses to will saving throws will be fun. He can be naive but also be stubborn. I imagine my character sucking his thumb to cast spells and have a yoyo(net) to impair peoples movement.

Dark Archive

There are several good ways to run out the summoners:

*Pet aid. Just that, takes long spear and attempts to flank / aid another. Mostly a high Cha support summoner / controller with a beastly Eidilon. What would probably work best for your concept.
*Master Summoner. Weak Eidilon that can always be out, free summon. Takes master summoner at 3, but otherwise has a flexible feat list. Usually best as a human so can have more spell supports
*melee summoner. With Power attack being the only real feat you need, grab 18 strength, hit hard. Works very well @ low levels
*Synthasummoner. Dump physical, high mental, Eidilon takes the physical. Very powerful, but loses the summoner's 2-action-1-guy team.


Thalin wrote:

There are several good ways to run out the summoners:

*Pet aid. Just that, takes long spear and attempts to flank / aid another. Mostly a high Cha support summoner / controller with a beastly Eidilon. What would probably work best for your concept.
*Master Summoner. Weak Eidilon that can always be out, free summon. Takes master summoner at 3, but otherwise has a flexible feat list. Usually best as a human so can have more spell supports
*melee summoner. With Power attack being the only real feat you need, grab 18 strength, hit hard. Works very well @ low levels
*Synthasummoner. Dump physical, high mental, Eidilon takes the physical. Very powerful, but loses the summoner's 2-action-1-guy team.

I see my elly being a gargoyle that is my stone guardian.

Evolutions to consider:
Large
flight
improved natural armor
claws
bite
slam
reach
improved damage

Also how does the evolution slam work? do you need an extra limb to use slam? can you have two claw attacks and a slam with two arms? Also what's the easiest way to heal the elly?


Sorry for double post but I'm wondering if half elf is still worth it if my dm has never used a sleep spell nor cared much if you had low light(he treats it like normal vision).

Liberty's Edge

Half-elf is generally the preferred race for summoners based on their favored class bonus alone. If my dm didn't use those racial traits, I'd see about trading them out for other, more useful, racial traits (and I'd definitely talk to my DM about low light vision, its very useful, he shouldn't just be throwing it out).

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