PFS Sorcerer advice


Advice

Dark Archive

Well I'm going to be starting a PFS game next week and think I'd like to try out a Sorcerer and from what I've actually seen something that will require some creativity and breaks the typical mold.

So the concept behind this guy is he is going to be a Gnome enchanter that is also going to focus in on illusion. In terms of Ability Scores I'm going to try to keep him rather balanced, though I'm not too enthused about it from a straight optimization standpoint, and have given him a pretty nice intelligence just since PFS play stresses skill checks in some situations.

Race: Gnome
Class: Sorcerer, Fey
Ability Scores:
Strength:9 (11-2race) (1pts)
Dexterity:12 (2 pts)
Constitution:16 (14+2 race)(5 pts)
Intelligence:12 (2 pts)
Wisdom:10 (0 pts)
Charisma:18 (16+2pts) (10 pts)

Feats:
1 Spell Focus: Enchantment, Eschew Materials (B)
3 Spell Focus: Illusion
5 Silent Spell
7 Improved Initiative, Still Spell
9 Spell Penetration
11 ??

Spells (I've planned this out to 6th level and didn't add cantrips):

1st: Sleep(1st level will replace at 4th with protection from evil), Grease (1st level), Silent Image (3rd level), Entangle (Bonus Spell 3rd level)

2nd: Scorching Ray (4th level), Hideous Laughter (Bonus Spell 5th level), Mirror Image (5th level)

3rd: Haste(6th level)

Strategy:
I plan on having him take craft alchemy and with the Gnomes obsessive trait and crafting some acid to toss around. Even at 1st level he has a pretty solid sleep DC of 18 (10+1+1SF+4cha+2bloodline). Entangle will give him some nice battlefield control at 3rd level with Silent Image beginning to kick off the second theme of the character illusions.

Scorching Ray is on there just for diversity sake and being small with a nice dex I'll have a nice range touch attack. Hideous laughter continues on with the enhcantment theme and it's a bloodline spell anyway so no complaints. Mirror image will give me some additional defense and I figure with illusions going could create some nice misdirection on what's going on. Haste I cap out at 6th and will see how the character is going from there, but with deep slumber as a bonus spell at 7 this seems like a really solid character.

Advice: I could really use some advice on feats since I feel that this is where I'm lacking. I'm scared of an opposing spellcaster just identifying an illusion so that's the key driver behind the still and silent spell. Also, I figure with those feats if I could find a way of tossing down silence it would be pretty amazing. Improved Initiative is just the bonus feat from the bloodline and Spell penetration at 9th I think would just be beneficial because by that level SR is a very real roadblock.


Take Toughness at 1st level.You want to live until you get your better spells.

In PFS,you can't use any Craft skills to craft anything-ever.

Combat casting is good,as is Improved Initiative.

Put your Int down one,and bump your Dex up to a 15.Then increase it by 1 at 4th level.

Sorry,I'm not experienced with casters,that's all I have.

Dark Archive

sphar wrote:

Take Toughness at 1st level.You want to live until you get your better spells.

In PFS,you can't use any Craft skills to craft anything-ever.

Combat casting is good,as is Improved Initiative.

Put your Int down one,and bump your Dex up to a 15.Then increase it by 1 at 4th level.

Sorry,I'm not experienced with casters,that's all I have.

Well that kind of sucks for the crafting side I guess I will use that as a profession then for the profession rolls. I'm kind of split on the Dex thing to be honest. Just as a Sorc in general I'm going to be hurting a bit in terms of skill points so the int I think is a nice bump so I'll wait to see what others think though I did consider that so the recommendation is duly noted. Toughness is great and if I were a human I'd take it in a heartbeat, but if I hear others saying that the Still and Silent spell metamagic feats just aren't going to be that important I'll drop both and take both Combat Casting and Toughness.

Better spells for this character though is really kind of subjective since a 1st level character tossing a 18DC sleep is pretty darn nasty.

I've honestly never used either Silent or Still spell in Pathfinder PFS play, since the only experience I've ever had with these feats was in 3.5 as a shadowcraft gnome. So anyone with caster PFS play it advice would be much apprecaited.

Dark Archive

I think your idea is great, and your character should be a big hit. I would like to fiddle with your choice of stats and feats however. Since you'll be going mainly for saves with your spells, I don't see the need to pump dexterity over constitution.

If you want to keep your skill points high I would go with

Str 8, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 18.

Alternatively, if you want to avoid dumping wisdom, which is a perfectly valid concern:

Str 9, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 18

You can achieve the same amount of skill points by putting your favoured class bonus into skills, and you'll still achieve a better fort save and more health than your initial build. For AC, learn shield at some point, and acquire a wand of mage armour.

As for feats, mostly I just think you should move Improved Initiative down to 3rd level, and focus mainly on enchantment spells until 5th level when you pick up spell focus: illusion. Or you could grab greater spell focus enchantment if you're having too much fun making your enemies kill each other. (Remember that illusions need to be interacted with to have a save, so there will be points where spell focus won't do you any good)

Dark Archive

Mergy wrote:

I think your idea is great, and your character should be a big hit. I would like to fiddle with your choice of stats and feats however. Since you'll be going mainly for saves with your spells, I don't see the need to pump dexterity over constitution.

If you want to keep your skill points high I would go with

Str 8, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 18.

Alternatively, if you want to avoid dumping wisdom, which is a perfectly valid concern:

Str 9, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 18

You can achieve the same amount of skill points by putting your favoured class bonus into skills, and you'll still achieve a better fort save and more health than your initial build. For AC, learn shield at some point, and acquire a wand of mage armour.

As for feats, mostly I just think you should move Improved Initiative down to 3rd level, and focus mainly on enchantment spells until 5th level when you pick up spell focus: illusion. Or you could grab greater spell focus enchantment if you're having too much fun making your enemies kill each other. (Remember that illusions need to be interacted with to have a save, so there will be points where spell focus won't do you any good)

Thanks for the advice on stats I've actually gone ahead with your second set and made updates. Dropping down Imp Initiative to 3rd level isn't a bad idea, but I'm actually taking it at 7th as a bonus feat. I'd have to muck around with the other feats to get that which is a very really thought if the SF: illusion isn't necessary. I suppose at that point id take GSF:Enchantment at 11 then. Have you had any experience with the still and silent spell feats?


Ok, here we go....

First, you have to play this guy all the way to 12. In my opinion, that means the character has to be fun now. Two years of PFS games is just not worth it for fun to be named later.

Do you WANT to play an intelligent character? If so, do it. If not, don't. PFS means you are never alone, there will always be 3-5 other people.

I personally would lower DEX, move CON up, and take True Strike. As a small character with low strength, it's your only way out of a grapple until dimension door.

Only take spell focus once, you don't have enough feats to burn. Decide.

If you want things like Silence, buy a scroll, and hand it to the guy next to you. If you put ranks into UMD, you can do it yourself.

I would put ranks into stealth as well. It goes well with silent spell, and it's good to have a scout. Rogues won't be in every party.

Dark Archive

I've never tried either of them, but do keep in mind that *technically* even while casting a still silent spell, it's not a stealth spell; people still know you're casting. You might be better off with something like bouncing instead of silent.

Remember also to keep alternatives available for fighting mindless creatures. Disrupt undead is a good cantrip to have, and you should make sure you have stuff to do (ie buffing) if none of your enemies are vulnerable to mind-affecting spells.


And remember, illusions are not supposed to be "ha ha, I am immortal" Think about them like the Skip cards from UNO. If you can get them to lose two turns going around an imaginary obstacle, then that is a huge advantage for your side.

Enchantment is good too, but you MUST learn who is. Immune, and have a plan b. At least take disrupt undead as a zero, and possibly point blank and precise shot to support rays and thrown flasks of acid. I might leave DEX at 14 in that case.

Dark Archive

rkraus2 wrote:

And remember, illusions are not supposed to be "ha ha, I am immortal" Think about them like the Skip cards from UNO. If you can get them to lose two turns going around an imaginary obstacle, then that is a huge advantage for your side.

Enchantment is good too, but you MUST learn who is. Immune, and have a plan b. At least take disrupt undead as a zero, and possibly point blank and precise shot to support rays and thrown flasks of acid. I might leave DEX at 14 in that case.

I think he'd be better off learning battlefield control and buffing spells than trying to be a poor man's ray caster when faced with mindless foes.

Dark Archive

I've also tossed in scorching ray at 4th level. Not fantastic but it should suffice in a pinch. I'll also make sure to take disrupt undead. I'll move some feats sound tomorrow when I get the chance but don't think I'm going to get PBS and ps since I don't see this guy being too ray heavy.

Grand Lodge

I don't like your feat selections. Instead of taking two different spell focus feats - choose one and take spell focus and greater spell focus. Seventh level is awful later to pick up improved initiative. I wouldn't take still or silent spell at all - you are better off with metamagic rods (and I'm not sure whether PF rules hinder the use of those selections).

I would never "specialize" in Illusions in PFS or any other organized play campaign. When you cast an illusion spell, you are totally at the mercy of how the DM runs illusions and there is a lot of variation.

Shadow Lodge

i've actually played with a guy whose sorcerer has no damaging spells, everything is save or suck. choose spells wisely, try to cover all saves. Also as second level spell, Blindness/Deafness, it may not fit, but damn, is it effective, fort save or be permanently blind or deaf(always choose blind). I've seen that spell turn encounters that are meant to be challenging into push overs


sphar wrote:
In PFS,you can't use any Craft skills to craft anything-ever.

Sorry, but you're wrong. An alchemist can use craft:alchemy to create alchemical items and poisons. But other than that one exception, you are correct.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/faq#v5748eaic9of0

Shadow Lodge

Mergy wrote:

I've never tried either of them, but do keep in mind that *technically* even while casting a still silent spell, it's not a stealth spell; people still know you're casting. You might be better off with something like bouncing instead of silent.

Remember also to keep alternatives available for fighting mindless creatures. Disrupt undead is a good cantrip to have, and you should make sure you have stuff to do (ie buffing) if none of your enemies are vulnerable to mind-affecting spells.

persistent spell is a winner for any enchanter

Dark Archive

Race: Human (Alt APG favored class feature)
Class: Sorcerer, Fey
Ability Scores:
Strength:9 (-1 pts)
Dexterity:12 (2 pts)
Constitution:15 (7 pts)
Intelligence:12 (2 pts)
Wisdom:10 (0 pts)
Charisma:18 (16+2pts) (10 pts)

Feats:
1 Spell Focus: Enchantment, Improved Initiative (H), Eschew Materials(B)
3 Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
5 Bouncing Spell
7 Spell Penetration, Quicken Spell (B)
9 Persistent spell
11 Greater Spell Penetration

Spells (I've planned this out to 6th level and didn't add cantrips):

1st: Sleep(1st level will replace at 4th with protection from evil), Grease (1st level), Enlarge Person (4th level bonus spell), Hydraulic Push (Bonus 5th level spell), Silent Image (3rd level), Entangle (Bonus Spell 3rd level)

2nd: Scorching Ray (4th level), Hideous Laughter (Bonus Spell 5th level Bloodline), Mirror Image (5th level), Blindness/Deafness (Bonus 6th level spell)

3rd: Haste(6th level)

Okay, well as everyone can see I've done quite an overhaul. I've now really centered in on Enchantment and switched my race to human since honestly the gnome was the main driver behind the enchantment/illusion mix. Since I'm a human I've moved some stats around, gained a feat, and picked up the human favoured class feature in APG which gives me a nice bump in spells. I feel like I have a fairly nice balance in spell selection tbh. Hydraulic Push I'm not sure if I'm too fond of but it does give you some possibilities since the CMB will be CL+CHA with no save and has a 25ft+5ft/2levels range.

Regarding Persistent spell I've gone ahead and added it as a feat, but what did you really have in mind persisting? Please let me know since I'll probably tweak the spell list a bit. Any other ideas or criticism?

Dark Archive

reallybigtuna wrote:

Race: Human (Alt APG favored class feature)

Class: Sorcerer, Fey
Ability Scores:
Strength:9 (-1 pts)
Dexterity:12 (2 pts)
Constitution:15 (7 pts)
Intelligence:12 (2 pts)
Wisdom:10 (0 pts)
Charisma:18 (16+2pts) (10 pts)

Feats:
1 Spell Focus: Enchantment, Improved Initiative (H), Eschew Materials(B)
3 Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
5 Bouncing Spell
7 Spell Penetration, Quicken Spell (B)
9 Persistent spell
11 Greater Spell Penetration

Spells (I've planned this out to 6th level and didn't add cantrips):

1st: Sleep(1st level will replace at 4th with protection from evil), Grease (1st level), Enlarge Person (4th level bonus spell), Hydraulic Push (Bonus 5th level spell), Silent Image (3rd level), Entangle (Bonus Spell 3rd level)

2nd: Scorching Ray (4th level), Hideous Laughter (Bonus Spell 5th level Bloodline), Mirror Image (5th level), Blindness/Deafness (Bonus 6th level spell)

3rd: Haste(6th level)

Okay, well as everyone can see I've done quite an overhaul. I've now really centered in on Enchantment and switched my race to human since honestly the gnome was the main driver behind the enchantment/illusion mix. Since I'm a human I've moved some stats around, gained a feat, and picked up the human favoured class feature in APG which gives me a nice bump in spells. I feel like I have a fairly nice balance in spell selection tbh. Hydraulic Push I'm not sure if I'm too fond of but it does give you some possibilities since the CMB will be CL+CHA with no save and has a 25ft+5ft/2levels range.

Regarding Persistent spell I've gone ahead and added it as a feat, but what did you really have in mind persisting? Please let me know since I'll probably tweak the spell list a bit. Any other ideas or criticism?

Persistent Hold Person comes to mind. With a 22 charisma (easily achieved), spell focus and greater spell focus, and your fey bonus, a persistent hold person would be DC 25, and the enemy would have to save twice. This would make up for the normal weakness of hold person, that a creature gets to save every round, because they'd have to roll a 25 twice. Of course, that's a 5th level spell slot, so decide for yourself if it's worth it.

EDIT: Basically though, any save-or-suck spell becomes leagues better when your opponent has to save twice.


Mergy, Tuna,

Sorry, when I see a small caster with good DEx and a ray spell already, I see that as a direction. Turns out it isn't. That's fine, buff spells will do quite well.

I will suggest a wand of mage armor right away. It's not just for you, monks, eidolons, animal companions can all benefit, as can anyone who is on a boat, sleeping, or fighting ghosts.

I'm not as a big fan of persistent, but nothing better leaps to mind either, aside from combat casting. It's a long way off, keep in mind that you can adjust the feat list on the way if a need arises.

Skills?

I would suggest Bluff and UMD to start.

Dark Archive

Bluff is excellent, and I would consider a trait to make diplomacy a class skill, as it comes up a lot in PFS, and sometimes you're surrounded by people who dumped charisma (like me :D).

I've noticed you've switched to human and you're also planning on taking the human favoured class bonus for spells instead of hit points. As such, I'd suggest finding room for Toughness, as you'll probably be wanting every hit point you can get. For feats to replace, I would say bouncing spell, as sad as that is; alternatively, you may not notice losing greater spell focus, as your enchantment DC is likely to be quite high without it.

Shadow Lodge

Mergy wrote:

Bluff is excellent, and I would consider a trait to make diplomacy a class skill, as it comes up a lot in PFS, and sometimes you're surrounded by people who dumped charisma (like me :D).

I've noticed you've switched to human and you're also planning on taking the human favoured class bonus for spells instead of hit points. As such, I'd suggest finding room for Toughness, as you'll probably be wanting every hit point you can get. For feats to replace, I would say bouncing spell, as sad as that is; alternatively, you may not notice losing greater spell focus, as your enchantment DC is likely to be quite high without it.

I've found that with about 14 con i've had enough health to get me though, most of it is just making sure that the people that dumped their charisma are getting in the way of attacks for you.

Dark Archive

Be that as it may, 14 con with no favoured class bonus to health and no toughness is too squishy in my opinion.

Shadow Lodge

play like your 16 con with toughness is too squishy too, most sessions i don't even lose any health these days,

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