Action to get something out of a backpack?


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

In a game Saturday night, I lost a very important combat round because I had to stop and pull a weapon out of my backpack.

The GM spontaneously ruled that it was a standard action for me to do so since, according to him, I had an overstuffed backpack (I carry 245 lbs., much of which is armor).

I disagreed vehemently, citing that drawing a weapon was a move action (the weapon is not "hidden," merely stowed away) and that my backpack was only overstuffed if I described it as such. After all, it was a masterwork backpack and came with hooks and harnesses and a myriad of other little things to make carrying lots of gear easier.

Eventually he won out, I accepted his ruling under protest and the game moved on.

What I want to know is this: Is there a rule ANYWHERE that says pulling out ANYTHING from ANY container is a standard action?

My GM cited the bag of holding and handy haversack as examples of it taking longer to pull items out, though I don't think those are valid since for them to be "overstuffed" they have to hold more objects than a mundane backpack (even a masterwork one) could possibly hold (in other words, it takes longer due to their magical nature, not due to a general rule of some kind).

What do you think? Was the GM in the wrong for suddenly implementing a random and needless house rule out of nowhere? Or am I just not accepting of a GM's realistic rulings?


Ravingdork wrote:

In a game Saturday night, I lost a very important combat round because I had to stop and pull a weapon out of my backpack.

The GM spontaneously ruled that it was a standard action for me to do so since, according to him, I had an overstuffed backpack (I carry 245 lbs., much of which is armor).

I disagreed vehemently, citing that drawing a weapon was a move action (the weapon is not "hidden," merely stowed away) and that my backpack was only overstuffed if I described it as such. After all, it was a masterwork backpack and came with hooks and harnesses and a myriad of other little things to make carrying lots of gear easier.

Eventually he won out, I accepted his ruling under protest and the game moved on.

What I want to know is this: Is there a rule ANYWHERE that says pulling out ANYTHING from ANY container is a standard action?

My GM cited the bag of holding and handy haversack as examples of it taking longer to pull items out, though I don't think those are valid since for them to be "overstuffed" they have to hold more objects than a mundane backpack (even a masterwork one) could possibly hold (in other words, it takes longer due to their magical nature, not due to a general rule of some kind).

What do you think? Was the GM in the wrong for suddenly implementing a random and needless house rule out of nowhere? Or am I just not accepting of a GM's realistic rulings?

Checking the Pathfinder SRD at d20pfsrd.com shows that retrieving an item is still a move action in Pathfinder.

The same in the D20 SRD!

Move Action Attack of Opportunity
Move Yes
Control a frightened mount Yes
Direct or redirect an active spell No
Draw a weapon No
Load a hand crossbow or light crossbow Yes
Open or close a door No
Mount/dismount a steed No
Move a heavy object Yes
Pick up an item Yes
Sheathe a weapon Yes
Stand up from prone Yes
Ready or drop a shield No
Retrieve a stored item

Forgive the formatting I've copied and pasted the table directly but it serves the purpose. Core Rulebook Actions in Combat.

I think the DM in this instance was being obtuse for the sake of it.


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"I disagreed vehemently"

This is a notable statement. You noticed that your GM made a mistake. You pointed it out. The GM still overruled you. You "disagreed vehemently".

Dude, it's only a game. So what if you had to take a standard action instead of a move action? Is this really a good reason to interrupt the game? You should have just accepted it during the session, then e-mailed the GM afterwards.

The Exchange

DM screwed you out of a standard action. It is a move action to retrieve an item from a backpack, whether it is stuffed or not. If he is going to penalize you for roleplaying having a full backpack then don't give descriptions for your roleplay that the DM can use to screw you with. It makes the game more fun when the DM punishes roleplay in a roleplay game.
:P


"Vehemently"

Yes it's a strong word, I've had a player "Vehemently" disagree with a decision I wanted to implement to balance out a, IMHO, game unbalancing item/power. I'm looking at you D20 Spell Compendium Wand of Orb of Force!

So much that it degenerated into a violent table thumping/yelling incident on the part of the player. I conceded at the time, let the player keep his <gollum> "precious"</gollum> as is, then vehemently reversed a newly swapped out ability which allowed sneak attack damage versus undead, citing his argument back to him regarding changing the RAW. Undead types aren't subject to sneak D20 v3.5 keep your trapfinding ability and your Orbs of Force.

So retrieve a stored item = Move Action RAW
Vehement arguing = Future disappointment House Ruled

Grand Lodge

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Axl wrote:

"I disagreed vehemently"

This is a notable statement. You noticed that your GM made a mistake. You pointed it out. The GM still overruled you. You "disagreed vehemently".

Dude, it's only a game. So what if you had to take a standard action instead of a move action? Is this really a good reason to interrupt the game? You should have just accepted it during the session, then e-mailed the GM afterwards.

Nah - I get where RD is coming from.

Sometimes the ruling is wrong, you know it even if you can't explain why or you have a good justification that it seems the DM just isnt listening to.

That said I've house ruled a while back that:

Items are either “readied” (sheathed weapons, arrows in quivers, items in bandoleers, etc), “convenient” (such as a belt pouch, satchel) or they are "stored" (backpacks, sacks, etc.) Normally a readied item is a swift action to draw, a convenient item is a move action, and a stored item is a full-round action. It should also be noted that putting the item AWAY is also the same action.

The Quick draw feat bumps all of these actions down a step (swift to free, move to swift, full-round to standard). Having sheaths, bandoleers, belt pouches, etc. fall into specific readiness categories which have a real mechanical impact on performance.

If shooting from the hip I can see how some DMs would feel how long it would take to get something from the pack would be a full round.

I feel its ok to disagree with the DM, even strongly (as long as one isn't a D***), but then you put it aside and move on with the game... and find the rule later and correct that. Done is done, a missed round may have caused some grief but as long as no one lost a character then there is no need for a retcon etc


Handy Haversack

Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th

Slot —; Price 2,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.

Description

A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary. It is constructed of finely tanned leather, and the straps have brass hardware and buckles. It has two side pouches, each of which appears large enough to hold about a quart of material. In fact, each is like a bag of holding and can actually hold material of as much as 2 cubic feet in volume or 20 pounds in weight. The large central portion of the pack can contain up to 8 cubic feet or 80 pounds of material. Even when so filled, the backpack always weighs only 5 pounds.

While such storage is useful enough, the pack has an even greater power. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains. Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does.

This makes it sound like getting an object out of a backpack would take longer than a move action (even if its only really negating the AoO)

Its a reasonable call. If your unused sword is under 200 pounds of other junk its going to take a while to get to.


While I think the normal rule as written is on the OP's side... it does suprise me that the OP said he had over 200+ pounds of equipment in the "Masterwork backpack...and the OP said himself its "Overflowing"...

Normally people store weapons in shealths or weapon carriers or straps around them... not in the backpack itself.. also a Masterwork Backpack gives you +1 on the Encumbrance chart... thats it... no other bonus... its not magical like a Handy Haversack,ect.

Only time I can think this happening as a Standard action is if you are a low level (Zero BAB) character without the Quickdraw Feat... however there are exceptions...

Oracles with the Haunted Curse have to use Standard Actions whenever they retrieve stored items

Haunted: Malevolent spirits follow you wherever you go, causing minor mishaps and strange occurrences (such as unexpected breezes, small objects moving on their own, and faint noises). Retrieving any stored item from your gear requires a standard action, unless it would normally take longer. Any item you drop lands 10 feet away from you in a random direction. Add mage hand and ghost sound to your list of spells known. At 5th level, add levitate and minor image to your list of spells known. At 10th level, add telekinesis to your list of spells known. At 15th level, add reverse gravity to your list of spells known.

Not even the Quickdraw Feat can help this...

IF I was the Dm at the time... I would have ruled your action as a move action... however it took you extra time to get that weapon since you have 200+ pounds of crap in your backpack... so your initiative would have been delayed for 10 points or end of the round... whichever came up first...

you would have still been able to make a standard action..but were penalized for having a Kender backpack

Shadow Lodge

Does anyone else think it's hilarious that his mundane masterwork backpack is holding more than twice the amount of stuff that you can cram into the magical Handy Haversack? Including a full set of armor.

You're lucky to get it in a standard action.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

A round is six seconds.
You can retrieve a stored item as a move action if it is stored in a easily accessible location, you know exactly where it is and nothing stop you accessing it (like the secured flap of a closed backpack).

So if your weapon was in a scabbard affixed outside the backpack, ok, you can draw it as a move action. If it is in your backpack with the hilt sticking out from the top and the weapon shape will not snag on other items (i.e. it is a sword in a scabbard and not a axe) it could be retrieved with a move action.

If it is a sword put away in a closed backpack together with another 200 lbs of junk, no way.

It is similar to the scroll case rule: you can put 4 scrolls in it and still get the right one out as a move action. If you cram more retrieving the right oen become a full round action.

PRD wrote:
Scroll Case: A leather or wooden scroll case easily holds four scrolls; you can cram more inside but retrieving any of them becomes a full-round action rather than a move action.

Grand Lodge

Kthulhu wrote:

Does anyone else think it's hilarious that his mundane masterwork backpack is holding more than twice the amount of stuff that you can cram into the magical Handy Haversack? Including a full set of armor.

You're lucky to get it in a standard action.

Yeah I think it weird but it seemed the GM let it get to that stage in the first place so I just shrugged and moved on.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Or am I just not accepting of a GM's realistic rulings?

THIS.

I give my players alot of leeway during our games. If they say a rule is X and it's going to slow down the game to stop and look it up then I trust them and conceed that the rule is X and keep it moving.

However when they say that the rule is X and in that particular circumstance it sounds wrong then I turn to one of my player who is a rules ace and ask him to find the rule as written so that I can make a an educated call.

If I were running a PFS game (which I dont) the call would stand as written in the rules. But in a regular game sorry some common sense has to be applied to certain (not all) situations. God knows there's been enough times where an NPC of monster has done something or is about to do something and some of my players start b*@%~ing about "that doesnt make sense" or "that monster wouldnt do that" and they start cracking open books to see how the spell or ability works.

In my experience most players only care how the rules work IN THIER FAVOR. If it's RAW and it works against them they are more likely to say that it's stupid or it's something that needs to be house ruled. The other way around, it's RAW and should be followed to the letter. I have one player at my table at present who isnt like that and will point out how something works or doesnt work whether it's detrimental or benefical to player, NPC or monster alike.

IF you dont trust your GM to make calls then you probably shouldnt be playing with that GM.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kthulhu wrote:

Does anyone else think it's hilarious that his mundane masterwork backpack is holding more than twice the amount of stuff that you can cram into the magical Handy Haversack? Including a full set of armor.

You're lucky to get it in a standard action.

Actually he said that his load is 245 lbs not that all of it was in his backpack. I'm going to say the DM made the right call on this. The handy haversack's special nature makes it quicker to retreive items than normal, since your backpack wasn't magical a standard action is warranted.

Moral. Keep your secondary weapon WORN in a sheathe not crammed away in a pack.

Shadow Lodge

LazarX wrote:
Moral. Keep your secondary weapon WORN in a sheathe not crammed away in a pack.

Yeah. When I play, I keep a minimum of my primary weapon, my secondary weapon, and a few daggers stashed on my person at all times (minimum of one on the belt and one on each boot). The only weapon I would stuff into my gear would be a few more extra daggers, and maybe something I had absolutely no plans on using.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Handy Haversack

Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th

Slot —; Price 2,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.

Description

A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary. It is constructed of finely tanned leather, and the straps have brass hardware and buckles. It has two side pouches, each of which appears large enough to hold about a quart of material. In fact, each is like a bag of holding and can actually hold material of as much as 2 cubic feet in volume or 20 pounds in weight. The large central portion of the pack can contain up to 8 cubic feet or 80 pounds of material. Even when so filled, the backpack always weighs only 5 pounds.

While such storage is useful enough, the pack has an even greater power. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains. Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does.

This makes it sound like getting an object out of a backpack would take longer than a move action (even if its only really negating the AoO)

See, the way I'd read the haversack description is that its primary benefit is not the move action (because RAW, it takes a move action to retrieve an item), it's that the haversack prevents the AOO you would normally provoke by retrieving the item. Fluffwise, because you can just reach in and grab the item on top, you don't have to root through and turn your attention away from an attacker.

As to RD's OP-

RAW, the GM was in the wrong, as it does take only a move action to retrieve an item. However I'd also note that this was an extraordinary circumstance---the GM might have felt he was being lenient already allowing RD's PC to carry so much stuff in a mundane backpack (masterwork or not), and felt that under the circumstances, it warranted a longer action. I can understand the GM's call--I don't know if I'd agree with it depending on the other circumstances in the game, but I can understand it. And this definitely is a "GM call" thing.

My advice to RD, to take or leave of course, would be this: Your GM appears to be a hardass when it comes to verisimilitude, and prizes versimilitude over RAW. This is not likely something you'll be able to change, no matter how convincingly you may think you are able to argue.

Hence, if you can't beat him, join him: I would adapt your playstyle to take the verisimilitude into consideration when you outfit your character. If you have an important weapon, by all means keep it sheathed in an easy to access place (where it will always be a move action to wield), don't stuff it in your backpack. Heck, write up exactly what your character is carrying in every location--he's got x in his backpack, y in his belt pouch, z in his boot. And make sure you can do it in such a way you can use this description to your advantage whenever possible. (And if at all possible, get yourself a handy haversack. :) )

I'm sure my advice will be considered wrong for whatever reason, but that's my two cents. Best of luck.


My opinion.
DM is God, and God describes reality. You cannot disagree on reality as much as you can't disagree with an apple falling down a tree.
Therefore, if the DM says it takes two rounds to retrieve an item becouse it's in the bottom of the backpack so it is. He looks into a parallel dimensions and tells you how things ARE, they're not to be argued about, period.
When I DM, I try to explain aìnd be fair. If my player had a knife sheated and wrapped in clothes under a few dozen other items stuffed in a backpack and fastened with half a dozen straps, then I would rule out it takes at least 25-30 seconds to pull it out, that is 4 or 5 full rounds.
Does it "break the rules"? So what? If the player told me the dagger was sheated and the sheat fastened to the outside of the backpack, arm's length to the player without even having to unload the backpack, I might even have him get it as a free action. It all depends how the player helps me out figure it, becouse the way I figure it is the truth, period.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It seems there is some misinformation floating around.

First, I am not carrying anything nearly resembling 200+ pounds in my backpack. That is my TOTAL load for my entire character. I imagine only a fraction of that (50 lbs. at most) would actually be in the backpack itself.

A list of my gear:
18 Strength, Max load of 350 lbs.

Though it isn't shown on my character sheet, I have listed item locations as I imagined it on my character. I will likely present this to my GM later and see if he still believes his ruling was correct (since, obviously, we both have differing ideas on how my character handles gear).

Combat Gear
alchemist’s fire (7) - on bandoleer
divine spell scroll of lesser restoration - in backpack
wand of cure light wounds (8 charges) - tucked into belt
wand of lesser restoration (8 charges) - strapped to right side of backpack

Other Gear
+1 handaxe - in backpack (this is the weapon I was trying to retrieve)
10-foot pole - on back, collapsible
bear traps (2) - hanging from backpack
blankets (2) - in rolls, strapped underneath backpack
block and tackle (2) - in backpack
caltrops (4) - in bags hanging from backpack
chakram (10) - stacked and strapped to small of back under blanket rolls
crowbar - strapped to left side of backpack
flint and steel - in backpack
gaff (as flail, but piercing) - hanging from belt, right hip
grappling hook - attached to rope around chest
half-plate - on body where appropriate
hemp rope (100-ft. length) - worn perpendicular to bandoleer around chest
longsword - in sheathe hanging from the belt on left hip
mask (worth 10gp) - worn in place of helm when not wearing armor, otherwise in backpack
masterwork backpack - strapped to back over weapons
masterwork ranseur - on back next to collapsible 10-foot pole or in hands
net - folded neatly, hanging from backpack
oil flasks (10) - split between being in the backpack or on the bandoleer
sap - hooked to belt on left hip next to longsword
shovel - strapped on left side of backpack next to crowbar
signal horn - small of back, centered in the doughnut hole of the stacked chakrams
spell component pouch - strapped to belt, right hip
starknives (2) - on bandoleer
stone of alarm - in backpack
tender (45cp) - right pocket
tent - in backpack
torches (8) - in backpack
tindertwigs (4) - left pocket
trail rations (8) - in backpack
waterskin - strapped to belt
whetstone - in backpack
wooden holy symbol - around neck

It sure is a lot, but can still be reasonably carried by a strong soldier. A trained warrior familiar with how and where he keeps his gear could surely get something in about 3 seconds (count it out, out loud; it's a surprisingly long amount of time in a combat situation).

Second, I was not rude to the GM and other players, I did not yell or threaten or do anything else inappropriate for a friendly game environment. In fact, it was I who got the game back on track, not the GM, as I chose to accept his ruling under protest to get the game going again (though you may not see that as such a big deal since you may interpret me as being disruptive with my objection rather than the GM with his sudden house rule). I WAS adamant and firm in my belief that his ruling wasn't one that I agreed with (never even specifically stated that he was "wrong," just that I disagreed with his ruling and my reasons why).

Finally, I have less of a problem with the ruling itself (it taking longer to pull something out of an overstuffed backpack DOES make sense to me). What I DO have a problem with is that (1) HE described my backpack as being overstuffed when I never once claimed that to be the case--in other words HE was dictating MY character, when he should have been dictating HIS campaign world. Fluff descriptions of our characters is one of the few things we have control of as players. I'll not see it taken away from me any time soon. (2) He made an an arbitrary and impromptu ruling without any forewarning that also hurt both my character AND the party (it was critical that I got the axe out quickly as it was the only thing that stood a chance of hurting the enemy before he trounced us). This sets a bad precedent for similar such rulings in the future. How are we to play the game cooperatively if the GM is just going to make up the rules as he goes? It was bad enough that we were second level characters fighting an incorporeal entity that could inflic bleed damage (which healed the entity) and all we had to fight it was a polarm with the magic weapon spell cast on it, and my axe. (3) He outright ignored the rules that were contrary to his ruling, even though I was able to get no less than four sources presented in under a minute (like everyone, I was wanting to end the discussion and get back to the climatic battle we were in the middle of).


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"I disagreed vehemently....

Eventually he won out, I accepted his ruling under protest and the game moved on."

RavingDork, you knew the rules. You knew that the GM was wrong. However you disrupted the game in an attempt to prove your point.

Now you come whinging to the Paizo forums, looking for sympathy and ammunition to fire back at your GM.

These actions speak of a lack of maturity.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Axl wrote:

"I disagreed vehemently....

Eventually he won out, I accepted his ruling under protest and the game moved on."

RavingDork, you knew the rules. You knew that the GM was wrong. However you disrupted the game in an attempt to prove your point.

Now you come whinging to the Paizo forums, looking for sympathy and ammunition to fire back at your GM.

These actions speak of a lack of maturity.

Defending our group from a rash GM decision that not only damages the party and the game in the short term, but can have lasting consequences on play style is immature? Okay. If you say so. *rolls eyes*

Posting about it on these forums looking for support (NOT ammunition) is not immature either. Everyone wants support in everything they do. That's not lack of maturity. That's human nature. (And a bit of boredom.) :P

Liberty's Edge

You can't type out all the stuff in your backpack in 6 seconds. A professional typist couldn't type all that out. Yet you expect your character to dig through it all to find an axe (not the easiest shape to pull out of an enclosed space) and pull out said item in less time than that? RAW be damned, I don't buy it. From real world experience, it takes me at least that to grab the right book out of my backpack when I'm in class, and that's just out of a couple of options. (Of course, the one I need is always on the bottom, literally, since its the book I need, its the book I haven't used for the longest time.) (Not trying to turn this into a real life vs. D&D thread, just saying. . .)

I wouldn't have let you off nearly as easily as your DM did. More likely a move action to take off the backpack, move action to open it (you travel with it secure, right?) and then very likely a standard or full round action to search through it. get what you want, tug it out, deal with it getting caught, and then you're still dealing with it being sheathed (after all, you don't carry around a magically sharp axe in your backpack without a sheathe on it I hope). Now if you had specifically pointed out, prior to getting caught, that you were making it a point to keep the weapon on top, or if your character was a meticulous planner who was always taking things like that into account, then I'd give you the benefit of the doubt, but without it, welcome to missing half the combat.


Ravingdork wrote:

Defending our group from a rash GM decision that not only damages the party and the game in the short term, but can have lasting consequences on play style is immature? Okay. If you say so. *rolls eyes*

Ah, the straw man. Why am I not surprised.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
ShadowcatX wrote:
You can't type out all the stuff in your backpack in 6 seconds. A professional typist couldn't type all that out.

I'm not seeing how typing has anything to do with drawing items out of a pack.

In any case, the axe was on top. It was a cursed item we had recently picked up and had yet to dispose of (in fact it was the most recent item now that I think about it). Despite knowing it was cursed, I knew it was the only other magical weapon in the party and that we needed it to survive the encounter.

Opening a loose flap and grabbing a handaxe laying flat on a bunch of other stuff doesn't take very long if you are familiar with navigating your gear.

Ever see a professional photographer pull a camera out of its pack, take out a lens, attach it, turn on the camera, and snap a shot in a the time it takes the heart to beat? I think that would be a much closer analogy than "typing."

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

You have looked your list trying to be unbiased?
Your backpack is overstuffed. You are overstuffed.

Two starknifes hanging from the bandoleer on your chest? those things are the size of small shields.
Block and tackle in the backpack and you are trying to depict it as not overstuffed?
Your character would have a lot of trouble bending to pick something from the floor.

I was a subscriber of the Challenge magazine (the GDW house magazine). In it there was a letter written by some soldier on active duty. One of them was arguing like you are doing that his character strength allowed him to easily bring along a lot of gear so he would have an easy time managing it.
As it was a modern game (Twilight 200) they had all the gear. So they had him don and load a fraction of the gear his character was carrying and had him move along and try to use it.
After a try the player decide to leave part of his equipment on their vesicle. And he was a trained soldier.

Sure, you can carry all that stuff, but it will not be all in a easily accessible location where you can retrieve it with a move action.

Your backpack is always left open so that you can easily retrieve your gear? If it is so you incur the risk of losing something every time you do a complex maneuver.

Your ranseur is secured in some way to the backpack. Unless you are using velcro it is struck trough a couple of loops to secure it. No way you can retrieve it with a single move.

Your DM is not taking something away from you. He is following your description of the character.
You are trying to to get away with descrying a guy with enough gear to fight a war by himself as someone with a few items in easy reach.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
You can't type out all the stuff in your backpack in 6 seconds. A professional typist couldn't type all that out.

I'm not seeing how typing has anything to do with drawing items out of a pack.

In any case, the axe was on top. It was a cursed item we had recently picked up and had yet to dispose of (in fact it was the most recent item now that I think about it). Despite knowing it was cursed, I knew it was the only other magical weapon in the party and that we needed it to survive the encounter.

Opening a loose flap and grabbing a handaxe laying flat on a bunch of other stuff doesn't take very long if you are familiar with navigating your gear.

Ever see a professional photographer pull a camera out of its pack, take out a lens, attach it, turn on the camera, and snap a shot in a the time it takes the heart to beat? I think that would be a much closer analogy than "typing."

You know the magical word that allow that?

velcro

When your container use straps and buckles to secure it opening it is more complex.

Dark Archive

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Diego Rossi wrote:

You have looked your list trying to be unbiased?

Your backpack is overstuffed. You are overstuffed.

Two starknifes hanging from the bandoleer on your chest? those things are the size of small shields.
Block and tackle in the backpack and you are trying to depict it as not overstuffed?
Your character would have a lot of trouble bending to pick something from the floor.

I was a subscriber of the Challenge magazine (the GDW house magazine). In it there was a letter written by some soldier on active duty. One of them was arguing like you are doing that his character strength allowed him to easily bring along a lot of gear so he would have an easy time managing it.
As it was a modern game (Twilight 200) they had all the gear. So they had him don and load a fraction of the gear his character was carrying and had him move along and try to use it.
After a try the player decide to leave part of his equipment on their vesicle. And he was a trained soldier.

Sure, you can carry all that stuff, but it will not be all in a easily accessible location where you can retrieve it with a move action.

Your backpack is always left open so that you can easily retrieve your gear? If it is so you incur the risk of losing something every time you do a complex maneuver.

Your ranseur is secured in some way to the backpack. Unless you are using velcro it is struck trough a couple of loops to secure it. No way you can retrieve it with a single move.

Your DM is not taking something away from you. He is following your description of the character.
You are trying to to get away with descrying a guy with enough gear to fight a war by himself as someone with a few items in easy reach.

While he may be overloaded. Per RAW, it is a move action:

Quote:

Move Actions

...

Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.

If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.

Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
Manipulate an Item

Moving or manipulating an item is usually a move action.

This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. Examples of this kind of action, along with whether they incur an attack of opportunity, are given in Table: Actions in Combat.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:

You have looked your list trying to be unbiased?

Your backpack is overstuffed. You are overstuffed.

For the purposes of this discussion, only the backpack really matters.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Two starknifes hanging from the bandoleer on your chest? those things are the size of small shields.

Oh? I imagiend them as being slightly larger than my fist. No where do the rules state they are "the size of small shields." In any case, it is a moot point as far as this discussion is concerned. We are discussing what kind of action it takes to retrieve a weapon from a backpack.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Block and tackle in the backpack and you are trying to depict it as not overstuffed?

Block and tackle comes in all shapes and sizes and materials.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Your character would have a lot of trouble bending to pick something from the floor.

Perhaps, but amidst all the moaning and groaning it would still be a move action.

Diego Rossi wrote:

I was a subscriber of the Challenge magazine (the GDW house magazine). In it there was a letter written by some soldier on active duty. One of them was arguing like you are doing that his character strength allowed him to easily bring along a lot of gear so he would have an easy time managing it.

As it was a modern game (Twilight 200) they had all the gear. So they had him don and load a fraction of the gear his character was carrying and had him move along and try to use it.
After a try the player decide to leave part of his equipment on their vesicle. And he was a trained soldier.

Many things in real life don't translate into the game very well. That doesn't mean we need to start making the game more realistic without any forewarning to the players.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Sure, you can carry all that stuff, but it will not be all in a easily accessible location where you can retrieve it with a move action.

No, but the important stuff will be. It makes sense that teh stuff I need quickly (such as weapons, wands, and potions) will be stored in easy access locations. Other things (non-combat tools and the like) will be stowed, but in less easily access locations.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Your backpack is always left open so that you can easily retrieve your gear? If it is so you incur the risk of losing something every time you do a complex maneuver.

Perhaps my backpack is held together by a simple draw string or a complex buckle. Maybe it is left open. Still a move action.

If the game gets too complex, nobody would want to play it. Sure there is some room for realism, but let's not go overboard with it. Who wants to play "real life?" We play games to escape from real life for a while.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Your ranseur is secured in some way to the backpack. Unless you are using velcro it is struck trough a couple of loops to secure it. No way you can retrieve it with a single move.

Being a polarm, I typically carry it in my hands. If I must, it fits into loops along my back. If the GM informed me that this would take longer to draw out and explained his reasons IN ADVANCE, I likely wouldn't have any problem with the ruling (in the OP, it wasn't the ruling itself that bothered me, but the way it was implemented).

Diego Rossi wrote:
Your DM is not taking something away from you. He is following your description of the character.

No he isn't. That's part of the problem. He arbitrarily made up his own description of my character.

Diego Rossi wrote:
You are trying to to get away with descrying a guy with enough gear to fight a war by himself as someone with a few items in easy reach.

See above. Only a handful of items need to be in easy reach, and they are.

The only thing I'm trying to "get away with" is following the rules and seeing to it that the GM's ruling doesn't have unforeseen consequences down the road.

Dark Archive

I would only agree with the DM if this particular weapon wasn't intended to be used ever and thus packed away. Even then, I might still say it's a move action as weapons are intended to be drawn as a moment's notice.

If it was on it's sheath, belt, container, then it is a move action, and the DM wasn't right to overrule the written rule.

When I DM, I NEVER assume weapons are stored away in packed form. I always assume players intend to draw them, because that's the ENTIRE INTENT OF THE WEAPON. Now, a special weapon or item that should be packed away is different, but normally a weapon is meant to be used.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Though I admit I've done a lot of mere skimming, it looks like people are still mostly failing to address the whole "the GM sprung this on me without notice" thing.

If the GM wants to rule that it takes a standard or full-round action to get a particular item in hand, fine. But if I announce "I use my move action to retrieve item X" and the GM says "Actually it takes your whole turn; who's next?" I'm gonna be pretty upset.

You see, presumably, my character knows whether the item is within normal reach or needs to be dug out. To inform me (the player) of a change in action type without letting me alter my decision based on that information is like having my character reach for something and then suddenly jump about four seconds into the future. Pull something like that and my character has every right to start insisting that there are temporal anomalies afoot that need to be investigated.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
BYC wrote:

I would only agree with the DM if this particular weapon wasn't intended to be used ever and thus packed away. Even then, I might still say it's a move action as weapons are intended to be drawn as a moment's notice.

If it was on it's sheath, belt, container, then it is a move action, and the DM wasn't right to overrule the written rule.

When I DM, I NEVER assume weapons are stored away in packed form. I always assume players intend to draw them, because that's the ENTIRE INTENT OF THE WEAPON. Now, a special weapon or item that should be packed away is different, but normally a weapon is meant to be used.

In this particular case, the cursed axe WAS packed away and not really intended to be used. However, the rules still support me in that it should have been a move action (it doesn't really matter what is tucked away or where, it is still a move action).

The only thing that would make drawing a weapon a standard action is actively concealing it, which wasn't the case in the example of the axe.

Also, you said "I would only agree with the DM if this particular weapon wasn't intended to be used ever and thus packed away."

Okay. So what are you going to do when the GM doesn't agree with your sentiment? He's the GM. He can over rule you. What's more, the other players are getting angsty because, as far as they are concerned, you are the one disrupting the flow of the game, not the GM and his sudden house rule. How do you resolve that situation without (1) caving in to the GM or (2) walking out on the game?

This is very much the situation I find myself in from time to time in our games. I disagree with a ruling and I almost always end up being the bad guy, regardless of whether or not I had sensible reasoning for the disagreement.

Jiggy wrote:

Though I admit I've done a lot of mere skimming, it looks like people are still mostly failing to address the whole "the GM sprung this on me without notice" thing.

If the GM wants to rule that it takes a standard or full-round action to get a particular item in hand, fine. But if I announce "I use my move action to retrieve item X" and the GM says "Actually it takes your whole turn; who's next?" I'm gonna be pretty upset.

You see, presumably, my character knows whether the item is within normal reach or needs to be dug out. To inform me (the player) of a change in action type without letting me alter my decision based on that information is like having my character reach for something and then suddenly jump about four seconds into the future. Pull something like that and my character has every right to start insisting that there are temporal anomalies afoot that need to be investigated.

Yep, this is pretty close to how I felt on the matter.

Liberty's Edge

Per RAW, retrieving a stored item (and how else would you define something in a backpack?) is a move action that provokes an AoO (as an aside, one of the benefits of a handy haversack is that retrieving an item from it doesn't provoke). So RD should've been able to get the axe, possibly take an AoO, and then attack with it the same turn.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I think it's reasonable to limit players to retrieving a set number of items as a move action, and a set of weapons which can be drawn as part of a move action. Anything that's inside a closed pack is a standard action to retrieve. Probably 10 items on the 'move action' list and five weapons.

In any case, it's not really well defined in the rules and in the middle of combat isn't the time to clarify rules. Any sort of discussion about this should be made outside combat, as a GM (or player) you should just concede the issue and dish out specifics after the game so everyone is on the same plate at the next session.


(1) HE described my backpack as being overstuffed when I never once claimed that to be the case--in other words HE was dictating MY character

No, he was dictating the laws of physics. You had X amount of stuff (from your character sheet's inventory list) Jammed into Y amount of space and your DM thought that qualified as "crammed". Its not your characters outlook on life or views on the chelaxian varisian border dispute, its the stuff you put on your inventory.

(2) He made an an arbitrary and impromptu ruling without any forewarning that also hurt both my character AND the party (it was critical that I got the axe out quickly as it was the only thing that stood a chance of hurting the enemy before he trounced us). This sets a bad precedent for similar such rulings in the future. How are we to play the game cooperatively if the GM is just going to make up the rules as he goes?

-Not every DM has the rule book memorized, and that lack of memorization does not mean that they're trying to hose you.

I) He outright ignored the rules that were contrary to his ruling, even though I was able to get no less than four sources presented in under a minute (like everyone, I was wanting to end the discussion and get back to the climatic battle we were in the middle of).

-A minute is way longer than i'll look for a ruling in combat, encumberance issues aside


As a DM I get where your DM Friend is coming from (the bag is over flowing with stuff it is going to take you a while to dig something out), BUT as a player I hate when rules are seemingly arbitrarily imposed.

A while back I asked all my players to give me the 3 weapons that they had easily accessible as well as 3 items that might have in holsters on their belts. These items I ruled they could pull using quick draw with no penalties anything else is going to take at least a move action and will draw an AoO.

Having something as simple as this might save you some headache in the future.

Liberty's Edge

Ravingdork wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
You can't type out all the stuff in your backpack in 6 seconds. A professional typist couldn't type all that out.
I'm not seeing how typing has anything to do with drawing items out of a pack.

It was just my way of pointing out that's a lot of stuff inside that backpack.

Quote:

In any case, the axe was on top. It was a cursed item we had recently picked up and had yet to dispose of (in fact it was the most recent item now that I think about it). Despite knowing it was cursed, I knew it was the only other magical weapon in the party and that we needed it to survive the encounter.

Opening a loose flap and grabbing a handaxe laying flat on a bunch of other stuff doesn't take very long if you are familiar with navigating your gear.

Knowing that it was on top, and that your flap was loose (not a great idea, IMO) I would side with you. That information was left out of your previous post.

Quote:
Ever see a professional photographer pull a camera out of its pack, take out a lens, attach it, turn on the camera, and snap a shot in a the time it takes the heart to beat? I think that would be a much closer analogy than "typing."

I work in a communications office, surrounded by news paper reporters and a photographer. I've never seen someone do that in "less than a heart beat." Instead, when the photographer knows she's going into a situation to take pictures she'll assemble her camera with the lens and carry it with her (with the strap around her neck) precisely because it doesn't take "just a heart beat" to do it. But there's more to assembling a camera than grabbing a hand axe as well.

Liberty's Edge

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Dennis Baker wrote:
In any case, it's not really well defined in the rules and in the middle of combat isn't the time to clarify rules. Any sort of discussion about this should be made outside combat, as a GM (or player) you should just concede the issue and dish out specifics after the game so everyone is on the same plate at the next session.

Yes, it is really well defined. The last entry in the table under Move Actions. Pretty clear to me.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Ravingdork wrote:


Diego Rossi wrote:
Two starknifes hanging from the bandoleer on your chest? those things are the size of small shields.

Oh? I imagiend them as being slightly larger than my fist. No where do the rules state they are "the size of small shields." In any case, it is a moot point as far as this discussion is concerned. We are discussing what kind of action it takes to retrieve a weapon from a backpack.

There is not a clear description, but you can look the images of them:

your hand grip a central hilt, a circle surround your hand and from there 4 knife blades protrude.

A minimum of 4 inches for the hilt and another 6 inches for each blade, so at least 16" across.

And that is a very low estimate of the size of the weapon. The blades do the same damage of a dagger and that is 12" long blade.


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I agree with the GM in this instance. The RAW may appear to indicate that removing a backpack from your back, opening it, rummaging through its packed contents to find a stored item, and then removing that item is something a person can do in under 3 seconds, but I dare anybody here to do it.

The RAW is either being read wrong, or it simply IS wrong.

Now, if I were the GM I probably would not argue very strenuously about it. If a character protested that RAW ought to come first, I would give in, because I am concerned more about the players' fun. But then, I am a fairly reasonable person who doesn't waste time fighting and arguing about a game, whether I am GM or a player.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
BYC wrote:

I would only agree with the DM if this particular weapon wasn't intended to be used ever and thus packed away. Even then, I might still say it's a move action as weapons are intended to be drawn as a moment's notice.

If it was on it's sheath, belt, container, then it is a move action, and the DM wasn't right to overrule the written rule.

When I DM, I NEVER assume weapons are stored away in packed form. I always assume players intend to draw them, because that's the ENTIRE INTENT OF THE WEAPON. Now, a special weapon or item that should be packed away is different, but normally a weapon is meant to be used.

Jiggy wrote:

Though I admit I've done a lot of mere skimming, it looks like people are still mostly failing to address the whole "the GM sprung this on me without notice" thing.

If the GM wants to rule that it takes a standard or full-round action to get a particular item in hand, fine. But if I announce "I use my move action to retrieve item X" and the GM says "Actually it takes your whole turn; who's next?" I'm gonna be pretty upset.

You see, presumably, my character knows whether the item is within normal reach or needs to be dug out. To inform me (the player) of a change in action type without letting me alter my decision based on that information is like having my character reach for something and then suddenly jump about four seconds into the future. Pull something like that and my character has every right to start insisting that there are temporal anomalies afoot that need to be investigated.

You are both doing the same error: skimming the posts and then assuming away.

By Rav posts the weapon was stored away in his backpack, not buckled at his belt for easy use.

The DM hasn't changed the general rule, he simply stated that retrieving something from a secured backpack is more complex than a move action.

I am fairly sure there was a specification in the 3.x that retrieving something from a backpack did require more than a move action, I will hunt a bit to see if it has survived in Pathfinder.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
No, he was dictating the laws of physics. You had X amount of stuff (from your character sheet's inventory list) Jammed into Y amount of space and your DM thought that qualified as "crammed". Its not your characters outlook on life or views on the chelaxian varisian border dispute, its the stuff you put on your inventory.

We've seen before what adding the laws of physics into a game can do. Best to have a balance between realism and game-ism.

You're right: it's not my character's in-game outlook that matters. It's about my out-of-game outlook of my character that matters.

It is my right to describe my character as I see fit. It is my character after all. If something doesn't mesh with the GM, it's something that needs to be addressed during character creation, not later.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Not every DM has the rule book memorized, and that lack of memorization does not mean that they're trying to hose you.

I never said that he was "trying to hose me" only that, that was the end result. Though the intent may vary, the end result is the same.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
A minute is way longer than i'll look for a ruling in combat, encumberance issues aside

That is no more than it takes to complete a turn. Seeing as it was my turn at the time, I wasn't even easting any more of anyone's time than usual for my turn.

Are you in the habit of not listening to your players when you GM?


DeathSpot wrote:
Dennis Baker wrote:
In any case, it's not really well defined in the rules and in the middle of combat isn't the time to clarify rules. Any sort of discussion about this should be made outside combat, as a GM (or player) you should just concede the issue and dish out specifics after the game so everyone is on the same plate at the next session.
Yes, it is really well defined. The last entry in the table under Move Actions. Pretty clear to me.

It's actually NOT well defined. It's very general and non-specific. "Stored" could mean in a codpiece or up somebody's butt for all we know.

It is THE JOB OF THE GM to clarify such things, based on what he understands of the situation. That includes changing the nature of an action if there are extenuating circumstances. "Extenuating circumstances" includes an overpacked backpack coming off a back, and somebody having to go through that pack.

Nevermind the "loose flap" thing. If the GM didn't know it before-hand, it didn't exist.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Diego Rossi wrote:
You are both doing the same error: skimming the posts and then assuming away.

You reply to me by showing why you think it should take a longer action, when I never said it shouldn't, and you're going to accuse ME of "skimming and assuming away"?

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

DeathSpot wrote:
Dennis Baker wrote:
In any case, it's not really well defined in the rules and in the middle of combat isn't the time to clarify rules. Any sort of discussion about this should be made outside combat, as a GM (or player) you should just concede the issue and dish out specifics after the game so everyone is on the same plate at the next session.
Yes, it is really well defined. The last entry in the table under Move Actions. Pretty clear to me.

It's usually a move action...

... unless???

It's usually a move action... It's at the bottom of a particularly full pack?

Who knows.

It really doesn't matter, there is always room in the rules for rational thought, so long as it's applied predictably (and not in the middle of combat).

Rational
Player shows GM his character sheet which has gobs of items in it.
GM "ummm... that's too much crap, you can't get at it all, give me a list of ten things from the pack you can grab in a hurry."

Rational
Player Pulls one of a hundred items out of his pack.
GM "ummm... you really have too much stuff in there, it's a move action now, but get me a list of quick access stuff at the end of the game."

Not-So Rational
Player Pulls one of a hundred items out of his pack.
GM "Dude, this has gotten ridiculous, you keep pulling all kinds of crap out of that pack, it's a full round action!"

On the flip side of this, there is no real reason as a player to argue it as a player and further drag the game down. Just nod your head and move on, then bring it up with the GM AFTER the game.

"Hey, I'd like a little clarification on getting things out of my pack. The rules say I can usually retrieve a stored item..."


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Bruunwald wrote:
It is THE JOB OF THE GM to clarify such things, based on what he understands of the situation. That includes changing the nature of an action if there are extenuating circumstances. "Extenuating circumstances" includes an overpacked backpack coming off a back, and somebody having to go through that pack.

You don't necessarily have to remove a pack to retrieve something on top of the pile.

Bruunwald wrote:
Nevermind the "loose flap" thing. If the GM didn't know it before-hand, it didn't exist.

If the GM wasn't willing to listen to me make my point for one minute, he certainly isn't going to listen to an hour long diatribe about how every little item is stored on my person and EXACTLY what kind of containers I am using at the time.

I've never met a roleplayer that wastes time describing the minutiae with his GM, nor have I ever met a GM that would listen to such minutiae for very long.

Are we to assume that such minutiae simply doesn't exist? Ridonkulous I say! You can't possibly have everything pre-described. Some assumptions are necessary for the game to move forward. A big one is that the GM is following the same book rules that the players are (unless specified in advance).

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Ravingdork wrote:
You don't necessarily have to remove a pack to retrieve something on top of the pile.

And it just happens that whatever item you happen to want at the time is always the one that's at the top of the pile?


Quote:

Manipulate an Item

Moving or manipulating an item is usually a move action.

This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. Examples of this kind of action, along with whether they incur an attack of opportunity, are given in Table: Actions in Combat.
(emphasis mine)

So, it's a move action unless the GM rules otherwise.

Pretty much like every other rule in the game.

Shadow Lodge

Dennis Baker wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
You don't necessarily have to remove a pack to retrieve something on top of the pile.
And it just happens that whatever item you happen to want at the time is always the one that's at the top of the pile?

It's kind of like how forum wizards always have the optimal spells for whatever situation memorized, no matter how unlikely.

Or how they have bonded objects when that's more convenient, but familiars when that is more convenient.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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Kthulhu wrote:
Dennis Baker wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
You don't necessarily have to remove a pack to retrieve something on top of the pile.
And it just happens that whatever item you happen to want at the time is always the one that's at the top of the pile?

It's kind of like how forum wizards always have the optimal spells for whatever situation memorized, no matter how unlikely.

Or how they have bonded objects when that's more convenient, but familiars when that is more convenient.

That is why Wizards are the best class EVAR, they use quantum gaming mechanics.


It's a clear case of the GM being right and the rules as written being wrong. It's not a case of "hyper realism", it's just plain sense (as people here have been pointing out). It's also what house rules are for, loads of people have them. That the necessity for a house ruling came up at that particular time is a shame for you, but there has to be a first time.

A GM making a ruling, in keeping with the laws of physics and common sense, and sticking to it is not holding up the game, it is the game.

Personally I always thought that retrieving stored, rather than sheathed, bandoliered, or pouched items, was at least a standard action. Now that this topic has come up it is now MY house rule.

Shadow Lodge

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Dennis Baker wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Dennis Baker wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
You don't necessarily have to remove a pack to retrieve something on top of the pile.
And it just happens that whatever item you happen to want at the time is always the one that's at the top of the pile?

It's kind of like how forum wizards always have the optimal spells for whatever situation memorized, no matter how unlikely.

Or how they have bonded objects when that's more convenient, but familiars when that is more convenient.

That is why Wizards are the best class EVAR, they use quantum gaming mechanics.

Schroedinger's Wizard can't posses a build until he perceives the situation he will be thrust into.

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