On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
Now I'm sad.
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Honestly, their business model is the main problem I see them having with a potential 2nd edition. They either have to develop it undercover and spring it on fans who have been blithely buying 1.0 material (which rules out another open playtest and would lead to massive unrest) or build up a big enough financial cushion that they can afford to not sell APs and modules while the new ruleset is under development.
You forget how Pathfinder got it's start. Pathfinder set up a playtest... one of the largest of it's kind in RPG history. They actually released a Playtest book as well.
With the current business model it would be easy to plug in another edition. They would announce a playtest/beta and even Alpha. To give the players a good sense of what is in the rules. They can take even a step further and not even have to stop publishing their Adventure Paths because they can plug them in to the playtest rules and continue with them that way.
This is not that complicated and the business model is set up perfectly for it.
Given the history of the game, a new edition doesn't necessarily mean incompatibility. oD&D, basic D&D, and both editions of AD&D are all pretty compatible with one another. 3rd and 4th edition are the two outliers in that area, but I don't think it's a given that a new edition of Pathfinder would want to go that way and rebuild the system from the ground up. Sure, certain items would have to change dramatically (such as the Stealth rules, which are already being tweaked), but the system as it stands now is solid. There are areas where options can be added and clunky rules can be streamlined, of course, but no areas that I see that scream out a desperate need for an overhaul.
I don't think they'll rebuild everything from scratch. It won't be a whole new system. However, I think that some of the subsystems will get a significant overhaul.
For example, for a lot of people, the way 3e/PF handles magic items is unsatisfactory. Personally, I don't mind it too much, but I would also welcome a change to make magic items mostly unnecessary, if and when a new edition comes around. I wouldn't be surprised at all if PF2e changes things in a way that many basic kinds of magic items are neither present nor required. That means you might get a sword that does fire damage rather than physical, flying carpets, and the like, there won't be belts of strength, +X weapons, cloaks of resistance and the like, and the system will be adjusted so the CR assumptions will reflect this.
I'd consider this quite an overhaul, requiring a retooling of many numbers (and thus probably making old monsters and encounters unusable without some work), but it won't be a new game.
Other changes I wouldn't be surprised about include:
A system that better incorporates multiclassing so multiclassed characters are neither too powerful nor too weak. Maybe something that separates class abilities advancement and basic abilities (i.e. HD, BAB, saves, skill points) advancement so you have, say, 10 HD but the class abilities of both 8th-level fighter and 8th-level wizard. Or something.
Tying into the multiclassing part, a more unified magic part. Maybe one of the "basic abilities" will be caster level" so even though your spellcasting abilities are those of an 8th-level wizard and 8th-level cleric, your caster level will be 10.
Honestly, their business model is the main problem I see them having with a potential 2nd edition. They either have to develop it undercover and spring it on fans who have been blithely buying 1.0 material (which rules out another open playtest and would lead to massive unrest) or build up a big enough financial cushion that they can afford to not sell APs and modules while the new ruleset is under development.
You forget how Pathfinder got it's start. Pathfinder set up a playtest... one of the largest of it's kind in RPG history. They actually released a Playtest book as well.
With the current business model it would be easy to plug in another edition. They would announce a playtest/beta and even Alpha. To give the players a good sense of what is in the rules. They can take even a step further and not even have to stop publishing their Adventure Paths because they can plug them in to the playtest rules and continue with them that way.
This is not that complicated and the business model is set up perfectly for it.
Not an option. APs are sent to adventure writers for development more than 6 months before their release. By the time an AP written in Alpha playtest rules came out, PfRPG would be in Beta and approaching final. There's a reason they never released anything for playtest rules last time around.
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For example, for a lot of people, the way 3e/PF handles magic items is unsatisfactory. Personally, I don't mind it too much, but I would also welcome a change to make magic items mostly unnecessary, if and when a new edition comes around. I wouldn't be surprised at all if PF2e changes things in a way that many basic kinds of magic items are neither present nor required. That means you might get a sword that does fire damage rather than physical, flying carpets, and the like, there won't be belts of strength, +X weapons, cloaks of resistance and the like, and the system will be adjusted so the CR assumptions will reflect this.
This is on the top of my wishlist for a later edition (whenever it comes). I don't like the "Christmas tree effect" at all. It also undercuts what ability scores are supposed to represent - 18 used to mean superhuman strength, but what does that mean when a typical 10th level fighter walks in with say a 24 strength?
This is on the top of my wishlist for a later edition (whenever it comes). I don't like the "Christmas tree effect" at all. It also undercuts what ability scores are supposed to represent - 18 used to mean superhuman strength, but what does that mean when a typical 10th level fighter walks in with say a 24 strength?
'Cuz he got it fair an' square, matey. Ya kill monsters, ya get traizzharr! Any scalawag with the mettle can blow tha man down, and take his gold! Arr...
For example, for a lot of people, the way 3e/PF handles magic items is unsatisfactory. Personally, I don't mind it too much, but I would also welcome a change to make magic items mostly unnecessary, if and when a new edition comes around. I wouldn't be surprised at all if PF2e changes things in a way that many basic kinds of magic items are neither present nor required. That means you might get a sword that does fire damage rather than physical, flying carpets, and the like, there won't be belts of strength, +X weapons, cloaks of resistance and the like, and the system will be adjusted so the CR assumptions will reflect this.This is on the top of my wishlist for a later edition (whenever it comes). I don't like the "Christmas tree effect" at all. It also undercuts what ability scores are supposed to represent - 18 used to mean superhuman strength, but what does that mean when a typical 10th level fighter walks in with say a 24 strength?
It just means that 10th-level fighters are superhuman as a matter of course :P
And unless I misremember, 18 wasn't superhuman strength. 18/00 was, because for Strength, there was the special rule with the percentile addition. But not for all races or classes. And no other ability score had anything like it, nor had any other value other than 18 any special case. And everything was absolutely, totally, capped at 25.
The new system is more granular. Granularity necessarily requires higher values all around (unless you want to go with increments smaller than 1, which is not dice-friendly).
If PF2e does away with most magic items, it's not unlikely that the rules for improving ability scores will change again. Right now, it's 1 point for every 4 HD. I guess it will go to 1 every 2, or 2 every 4 (i.e on 4, 8, 12 etc, you get to increase two attributes by 1 each, but not 1 by 2). Maybe even more than that.
I'm with you, KY, that treasure is one of the things that needs to change a little, but I think the ideas you've presented are probably a little too much change.
Treasure desperately needs to be reorganized, and the generation system needs to be made functional. More granular treasure interactions with CR would be terrific. The actual treasure catalog could stay the same, though.
Treasure is not working so great in PF, but 90% of it's cruft is on the GM side of the screen. That's the side they should fix, because it will keep all the old statblocks valid.
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No more christmas tree effect, and a complete overhaul of weapons as to at least give each of them a special feature making it as useful as the previous one, are two of the most important details on my wishlist.
Magic items should be rare and not so generic, weapons should be balanced and all have a special use so there aren't only kukri rogues, scimitar agile fighters and greataxe/greatsword barbarians.
Right now, I think Paizo is going to last for a long time...
No more christmas tree effect, and a complete overhaul of weapons as to at least give each of them a special feature making it as useful as the previous one, are two of the most important details on my wishlist.
Magic items should be rare and not so generic, weapons should be balanced and all have a special use so there aren't only kukri rogues, scimitar agile fighters and greataxe/greatsword barbarians.
Right now, I think Paizo is going to last for a long time...
With this a pirate can agree. Arr.
I'm sure we'll see a new edition of Pathfinder within the next 3 years. The 3.5e/3e market is pretty saturated with content, with over a decade worth of stuff published already by WotC and Paizo.
Adventure paths are always good, and Paizo has done a great job with those so far.
However, you can only print so many books with player options and mechanics before you run out of popular things to publish and start dealing with obscure stuff that nobody really cares about.
The ridiculous amount of stupid and pointless paragon paths published later in the 3e/3.5e life cycle was a symptom of this.
Paizo is going to have to evolve, or get left behind.
The ridiculous amount of stupid and pointless paragon paths published later in the 3e/3.5e life cycle was a symptom of this.
Paizo is going to have to evolve, or get left behind.
Hehe. You called them "paragon paths." I think if you consult your Complete Champion, you'll notice we were still using "prestige classes" back in the day, even at the end of things and I can find you at least two players who would have kept paying for more of them.
Three if you count me. :p
I wondered if that was a subsconcious slip or not.
Aww, what we have here is a case of "system confusion." It is most commonly found in individuals who have not progressed past the "d6" phase of development. You see, we have certain gaming impulses arising from our base mental ability scores that bias us toward one system or another, and through apparent "slips" like this one, those preferences communicate themselves to the our active, "player" mind.
It is the tension between these "underlying mechanics" and the guiding consciousness of the "player" that limits most PCs from progressing into the d10 and d20 phases of character growth.
I'm sure we'll see a new edition of Pathfinder within the next 3 years. The 3.5e/3e market is pretty saturated with content, with over a decade worth of stuff published already by WotC and Paizo.
Adventure paths are always good, and Paizo has done a great job with those so far.
However, you can only print so many books with player options and mechanics before you run out of popular things to publish and start dealing with obscure stuff that nobody really cares about.
The ridiculous amount of stupid and pointless paragon paths published later in the 3e/3.5e life cycle was a symptom of this.
Paizo is going to have to evolve, or get left behind.
I think they did evolve, to a paradigm based on adventure content rather than rules content. A lot of people don't quite realize just how popular the adventure paths and setting info are. You don't need to reset the campaign setting to keep making money on it.
They can publish a new form of the rules, but they don't actually need to change the rules to make money. In fact, they've made a lot of money off of not changing rules, it looks like.
That book would be huge.I definitely think that Paizo will still be selling a recognizable PF long after 5e has been released. Too much of Paizo's business plan relies on adventure sales to blithely invalidate their previous products by making too drastic of changes to the base rules.
I expect that somewhere 3-5 years down the road, Paizo will meld CRB and APG into a single volume, likely including some UC and UM material. It makes sense than all character creation rules should be in one volume. If done correctly, the new volume will remain compatible with the old books and any changes will be available in errata which will be freely available for download.
The Core Rulebook is a bit too big and unwieldy, both at the gaming table and when casually reading it. I made the mistake of having it standing upright on a shelf, resulting in the pages tearing away from the cover.
It would be nice to fold the Gamemastery and Advanced Playes guide into the core rules. And then spliting the Core Rulebook into a Players guide and a DMs guide
I think that Pathfinder should remain in the current edition for perhaps another eight years, I would be fine with a second edition of Pathfinder NOT being backwards-compatible with 3rd edition, but SHOULD keep it's 3rd edition feel.
I would pay serious money for a pleather-bound copy of a revised(Stealth rules, better formatting, easier reference) of the Core Rulebook with all 20 base classes, choice rules & options from supplements, the race creation rules, and like sixteen pages of equipment. Packaged with a Bestiaries+Gamemastery Guide.
While we're at it, have James Jacob's sign it and charge ludicrous sums of dollars for it.
Really, if there was some sort of tangible equivalent to the PFSRD, I would be willing to pay maybe $600-$1000 (and I'm fifteen and don't have an allowance :P ) for it. Just, an enormous tome of tabletop gaming, complete with fake leather and arcane runes and glass/plastic "gems", to really capture the feel of the 3rd edition materials.
The ridiculous amount of stupid and pointless paragon paths published later in the 3e/3.5e life cycle was a symptom of this.
Paizo is going to have to evolve, or get left behind.
Hehe. You called them "paragon paths." I think if you consult your Complete Champion, you'll notice we were still using "prestige classes" back in the day, even at the end of things and I can find you at least two players who would have kept paying for more of them.
Three if you count me. :p
Ah good point. I should have said Prestige Classes.
I was happy with the Prestige Classes published earlier in the 3e life cycle.
Stuff like the Assassin, Duelist, etc. are fantasy archetypes that gamers want to be able to play. Then there were some other cool Prestige Classes like the Exotic Weaponmaster.
But when they started putting out stuff like "Greenstar Adept" where you turn into a green emerald statue from space, it seemed like they were running out of ideas. At that point a lot of the PrC's felt like filler.
Stuff like the Assassin, Duelist, etc. are fantasy archetypes that gamers want to be able to play. Then there were some other cool Prestige Classes like the Exotic Weaponmaster.
But when they started putting out stuff like "Greenstar Adept" where you turn into a green emerald statue from space, it seemed like they were running out of ideas. At that point a lot of the PrC's felt like filler.
I have to disagree. It was only when 3.5 was coming to a close that we started to see "patch" feats and classes that tried to fix many of it's problems. The martial hybridizing feats were fantastic and skill tricks offered a sensible way to give characters additional powers they often needed at a resource cost they could afford.
Pax Veritas says it all in one go. Other than wotc alienated us when they stopped making/printing 3.5 products and then thumbed their nose at us with 4e. Personally I love my 1st, 2nd and 3.5 editions, but Pathfinder is the best, and even though I love all the extras I don't need them to play. And what's more I really like the Golarion setting!
It is imaginative, fun, and it is still very open.
This is on the top of my wishlist for a later edition (whenever it comes). I don't like the "Christmas tree effect" at all. It also undercuts what ability scores are supposed to represent - 18 used to mean superhuman strength, but what does that mean when a typical 10th level fighter walks in with say a 24 strength?
IMHO, this is something that actually got BETTER in 3.X/PF.
In 1e or 2e, the single most important thing that determines how effective a normal PC race character will be in melee combat is: "What kind of girdle of giant strength does he have?"
The 10th fighter with a 24 STR in Pathfinder at least probably started with an 18. The 2E specialty priest mowing guys down with his 24 STR might have started with a 4. He doesn't have a single level of fighter. But he's still going to whip your straight fighter of similar level with high rolled strength silly without casting a single spell.
Is Pathfinder here for the long haul?
Absolutely.
The most important thing? It's here for the long haul no matter what Paizo does. The OGL is perpetual. If Paizo goes and tries a radical break, somebody else takes the Open Game Content and republishes it (maybe tweaked some), just like Paizo did with the 3.5 SRD.
I'm sure we'll see a new edition of Pathfinder within the next 3 years.
I wouldn't bet anything you want to keep on that one. Unlike certain other companies, Paizo has a pretty good reputation for not lying through their teeth, and they said that there won't be a new edition that soon.
The 3.5e/3e market is pretty saturated with content, with over a decade worth of stuff published already by WotC and Paizo.
Yet new content keeps coming out and people seem to like it.
We do have enough rules stuff. A lot of people agree to that - but that just means they definitely don't want a whole new edition.
And there is far more to roleplaying than new rules options. Adventure Paths are one thing, but not the only. There's also a whole campaign world virtually unexplored except in the most superficial way.
And that's just Paizo.
Paizo is going to have to evolve, or get left behind.
I might agree with you, but Paizo's a company, not a kind of finch.
The 3.5e/3e market is pretty saturated with content, with over a decade worth of stuff published already by WotC and Paizo.Yet new content keeps coming out and people seem to like it.
We will have enough rules stuff once mythic and psionic rules support is formalized. A lot of people agree to that - but that just means they definitely don't want a whole new edition.
Just thought I'd fix that for ya, there :)
Paizo is going to have to evolve, or get left behind.I might agree with you, but Paizo's a company, not a kind of finch.
Heheheh +1
