IM still reading through this.
38 INT.
18 + 2 for drow +4 for lich (allowed to move 2 from cha bonus to int.) 3 from stat increases 1 inherant +6 headband. Takes me to 34 +2 for AGE. +2 for spell casting prodigy.
38 INT.
Spellcasting prodigy doesn't actually raise your intelligence, it just gives you more bonus spells.
Drow are +2 to Dex and Charisma.
Lich do add a +2 to Intelligence, but they also increase your effective level by +2 so he should be two levels lower than everyone else as a caster.
But nice hax on his part to avoid the -4 con penalty (drow and age) by playing a lich.
Maybe they are using the NWN2 version of spellcasting prodigy?
Also i think i saw a post saying that the DM didn't up effective character level.
evidence.
Yeah, you got it then (clearly). I just hadn't noticed it mentioned previously.
Your luck sounds as atrocious as mine in WoW. =P
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IM still reading through this.
38 INT.
18 + 2 for drow +4 for lich (allowed to move 2 from cha bonus to int.) 3 from stat increases 1 inherant +6 headband. Takes me to 34 +2 for AGE. +2 for spell casting prodigy.
38 INT.
Spellcasting prodigy doesn't actually raise your intelligence, it just gives you more bonus spells.
Drow are +2 to Dex and Charisma.
Lich do add a +2 to Intelligence, but they also increase your effective level by +2 so he should be two levels lower than everyone else as a caster.
But nice hax on his part to avoid the -4 con penalty (drow and age) by playing a lich.
Maybe they are using the NWN2 version of spellcasting prodigy?
Also i think i saw a post saying that the DM didn't up effective character level.
This is my point.
They aren't following the rules on what he is listing, god knows what other bonus loopholes he found for the spells he is casting to make the saves even higher that the ridiculous stuff posted that was allowed.
Seriously a venerable noble drow lich with no class levels and an extra +2 template on top of it and you are asking why nothing ever saves...
Really? You are asking where there may be a problem? Really?
Seriously a venerable noble drow lich with no class levels and an extra +2 template on top of it and you are asking why nothing ever saves...
Really? You are asking where there may be a problem? Really?
He's actually asking the opposite question; why do the NPCs/Monsters always save against his spells, even though he has so high bonuses.
Most likely, it's the luck of the dice, or the DM doesn't explain that the spell fails due to Spell Resistance or immunities rather than because the creatures save against the spell.
That sucks you got booted from the group for announcing your concerns on Paizo. I don't see anything wrong with it, since I would be equally baffled by the results. Maybe you were holding a cursed item or just had consistently bad rolls. Or maybe your DM doesn't know how to calculate rolls and DCs? I don't know. I guess it doesn't matter anymore.
I think the next time you play Wizard, you should try playing Conjuration. I love save or dies, but think they should be used sparingly. My favorite strategy is Summon Monster + Animal Growth + buffs. But everyone has their favorite spells. Sorry to hear this didn't turn out well. Good luck next time :)
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Seriously a venerable noble drow lich with no class levels and an extra +2 template on top of it and you are asking why nothing ever saves...
Really? You are asking where there may be a problem? Really?
You are missing the point. He's asking why the NPCs/Monsters always save against his spells, even though he has so high bonuses.
High bonuses relative to what?
That is my point. He is playing with a munchkin who should have at least 3 levels of adjustment before we get into whatever other loopholes he is using.
The DM had to raise the power bar of the game to compensate, and the OP isn't munchkining as as well as the other munchkins so he is lagging behind.
Unless we are going to advise him how to subvert the rules equally to his wizard friend, I don't see what advice would be useful.
He is playing in a rigged game.
Seriously a venerable noble drow lich with no class levels and an extra +2 template on top of it and you are asking why nothing ever saves...
Really? You are asking where there may be a problem? Really?
You are missing the point. He's asking why the NPCs/Monsters always save against his spells, even though he has so high bonuses.
High bonuses relative to what?
That is my point. He is playing with a munchkin who should have at least 3 levels of adjustment before we get into whatever other loopholes he is using.
The DM had to raise the power bar of the game to compensate, and the OP isn't munchkining as as well as the other munchkins so he is lagging behind.
Unless we are going to advise him how to subvert the rules equally to his wizard friend, I don't see what advice would be useful.
He is playing in a rigged game.
But isn't the significantly weaker Sorcerer faring far better? Unless the DM is using two sets of DCs and using the higher set for the stronger spellcaster, I don't see how he could still be failing so much more.
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To the original poster; you still haven't clarified whether you see the rolls.
Do you see the GM roll natural 20 after natural 20, vs your spells (the only conceivable way most appropriate CR creatures, run straight out of the book, would pass their worst save),
Or, do you declare your action, GM rolls secretly, and says 'he saves'?
Does he sometimes forget to roll?
Does he roll, and forget to look at the result?
<roll>
"Yawn. Whatever. He saves."
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But isn't the significantly weaker Sorcerer faring far better? Unless the DM is using two sets of DCs and using the higher set for the stronger spellcaster, I don't see how he could still be failing so much more.Seriously a venerable noble drow lich with no class levels and an extra +2 template on top of it and you are asking why nothing ever saves...
Really? You are asking where there may be a problem? Really?
You are missing the point. He's asking why the NPCs/Monsters always save against his spells, even though he has so high bonuses.
High bonuses relative to what?
That is my point. He is playing with a munchkin who should have at least 3 levels of adjustment before we get into whatever other loopholes he is using.
The DM had to raise the power bar of the game to compensate, and the OP isn't munchkining as as well as the other munchkins so he is lagging behind.
Unless we are going to advise him how to subvert the rules equally to his wizard friend, I don't see what advice would be useful.
He is playing in a rigged game.
With the ridiculously accommodations he gave to the wizard we can only guess what he gave to the sorcerer.
Any guesses we make on a rigged game are just that, guesses.
Again a venerable drow noble lich with no class levels, an extra +2 ability and allowances to move other ability scores around?
He may have just given the Sorcerer huge bonuses pulled out of some random splatbook. The DM obviously has either no control of the table or no interest in boundaries.
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The DM had to raise the power bar of the game to compensate, and the OP isn't munchkining as as well as the other munchkins so he is lagging behind.
Unless we are going to advise him how to subvert the rules equally to his wizard friend, I don't see what advice would be useful.
He is playing in a rigged game.
Ciretose, can you PLEASE read the original post.
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Ciretose, can you PLEASE read the original post.The DM had to raise the power bar of the game to compensate, and the OP isn't munchkining as as well as the other munchkins so he is lagging behind.
Unless we are going to advise him how to subvert the rules equally to his wizard friend, I don't see what advice would be useful.
He is playing in a rigged game.
I did.
He is asking why his character with an impossible intelligence score is being out shined by another character with a barely believable charisma score.
Then he outlined all of the cheese his DM allowed for him and so I can only imagine the cheese the DM allowed for the sorcerer.
Just because the scores are what they are doesn't mean the sorcerer didn't dig up some hax that increased save dc, forces rerolls, etc...
What we know is this is a rigged game and that one player is upset his rigging isn't as good as someone elses.
Having a rules discussion is pointless when the people involved aren't following the rules.
To the original poster; you still haven't clarified whether you see the rolls.
Do you see the GM roll natural 20 after natural 20, vs your spells (the only conceivable way most appropriate CR creatures, run straight out of the book, would pass their worst save),
Or, do you declare your action, GM rolls secretly, and says 'he saves'?Does he sometimes forget to roll?
Does he roll, and forget to look at the result?<roll>
"Yawn. Whatever. He saves."
This. I must know the answer to this! I played a game where the DM was angry at a player for min/maxing in our casual game, so he started fudging rolls to scale the player down to our level.
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That sucks you got booted from the group for announcing your concerns on Paizo. I don't see anything wrong with it, since I would be equally baffled by the results. Maybe you were holding a cursed item or just had consistently bad rolls. Or maybe your DM doesn't know how to calculate rolls and DCs? I don't know. I guess it doesn't matter anymore.
From the sound of how miserable a time he was having, I agree that maybe its best that he cut his losses and leave the game. Otherwise, I was just going to say to ditch the wizard and roll up a new character that buffs or just doesn't cast spells. Then of course, you run the risk of not being able to roll above their AC to hit.
Treantmonk nailed it.
Cast spells that don't allow saves. Make sure your casting targets an enemy's weakness. If the dice are perpetually against you, stop using abilities that rely on them. With metamagic thrown in, even lower level no-save spells are still viable.
Also, walls and dispels. Anything you can do to keep the bad guys on the ground and hedged in is really good for the party.
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From the sound of how miserable a time he was having, I agree that maybe its best that he cut his losses and leave the game. Otherwise, I was just going to say to ditch the wizard and roll up a new character that buffs or just doesn't cast spells. Then of course, you run the risk of not being able to roll above their AC to hit.That sucks you got booted from the group for announcing your concerns on Paizo. I don't see anything wrong with it, since I would be equally baffled by the results. Maybe you were holding a cursed item or just had consistently bad rolls. Or maybe your DM doesn't know how to calculate rolls and DCs? I don't know. I guess it doesn't matter anymore.
Then again, where is he going to find another DM who allows that build?
I do not see the Dice rolls. no one does. he rolls he saves.
*DING DING DING* Your DM has been fudging rolls. The fact that you were booted from the game for voicing a legitimate concern on Pazio only supports the fact that your group has had it out for you, but hasn't had the balls to be upfront about it.
Find a new group.
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I do not see the Dice rolls. no one does. he rolls he saves.*DING DING DING* Your DM has been fudging rolls. The fact that you were booted from the game for voicing a legitimate concern on Pazio only supports the fact that your group has had it out for you, but hasn't had the balls to be upfront about it.
Find a new group.
And when you do, stop being a munchkin. It may be why they have had it with you.
Bending the rules ridiculously doesn't make you "win" it makes you "That guy".
Nobody likes playing with "That guy". Which is perhaps why they got the new guy in the first place...
Its not "they just save against etc etc."its they save against EVERYTHING.
I repeat:
Maze
Prismatic Wall
Greater Planar Binding
Summon Monster VII
Reverse Gravity
Greater Polymorph
If you continue to rely on spells that provide saving throws despite consistent failure, then you reap what you sow.
Your problem is easily correctable, so why are you not correcting it?
P.S.
Why are threads opened in the "Advice" column that are clearly asking for advice, getting thrown into "Gamer Talk"?
Is someone asleep at the switch? Or is "advice" reserved for posts giving advice and not those asking advice (I assumed it was the latter)
38 INT Old Drow noble lich wizard ... there's a line as a PC that should not really have been crossed. Drow in almost all campaigns are as or more evil than home-made soap, despised by almost every civilized surface-dwelling race/society and have a major problem with sunlight. Liches are almost always evil incarnate, sacrificing newborn unicorns and engineering genocide to fuel their insatiable thirst for arcane power. They too are despised by almost every surface-dwelling race/society and have a severe reaction to certain sunlight-based effects.
I do hope that this was an Evil campaign. Otherwise, your character should have run into an imprisonment made into an automatic failure by a quickened wish by now.
I'd take odds on a loaded d20 "just for you" behind the screen. If the monsters were stock, then the GM was trying (and failing) to be subtle.
Either way, stock monsters don't deserve to go up against PCs that are that far ahead of the curve for their supposed level. By all rights, that group's mundane encounters should have been ~CR 18-19 with heavy hitters ~CR 22 (at APL 15).
In other words, when your group would have normally encountered 1 CR 18 critter, you should have been getting pounded on by 4-5 of them.
It is possible/probable that the GM was taking it easy on the new player despite the fact that you made that character for the player.
I do not see the Dice rolls. no one does. he rolls he saves.*DING DING DING* Your DM has been fudging rolls. The fact that you were booted from the game for voicing a legitimate concern on Pazio only supports the fact that your group has had it out for you, but hasn't had the balls to be upfront about it.
Find a new group.
And when you do, stop being a munchkin. It may be why they have had it with you.
Bending the rules ridiculously doesn't make you "win" it makes you "That guy".
Nobody likes playing with "That guy". Which is perhaps why they got the new guy in the first place...
Plausible alternative: be a munchkin. But be hilarious about it. Being a munchkin is much less frowned upon if the character is just that hilarious/awesome/whatever.
Or date the dm. This is much harder to accomplish if you're male.
Plausible alternative: be a munchkin. But be hilarious about it. Being a munchkin is much less frowned upon if the character is just that hilarious/awesome/whatever.Or date the dm. This is much harder to accomplish if you're male.
Geez, Trinam ... not if the DM is into dudes. C'mon now. ;)
Geez, Trinam ... not if the DM is into dudes. C'mon now. ;)
Plausible alternative: be a munchkin. But be hilarious about it. Being a munchkin is much less frowned upon if the character is just that hilarious/awesome/whatever.Or date the dm. This is much harder to accomplish if you're male.
I'm just saying. The vast majority of gms are into women. Yes, there are exceptions, but that's your roleplaying penalty for rolling a male rper.
That class is OP otherwise.
I do not see the Dice rolls. no one does. he rolls he saves.
The most parsimonious answer - by far! - is that your DM was terrible. What probably happened was that, for whatever reason, the DM decided he didn't want your character to shine. To make sure this wouldn't happen, he would just have all of your spells fail to affect the monsters. This is die-fudging. I hate die-fudging, especially when it's done at the players' expense. But beyond that, it's prejudicial and systematic die-fudging. Then your DM gives you utterly nonsensical excuses, like "It's already barely manageable!" when you try to fight his cheating (and yes, this is cheating; the DM is screwing with the game out of view of the players in order to prejudicially make the game less enjoyable and less equitable for one of the players) within the bounds of the game's rules. That's a sucker's battle. If he's okay ignoring the game's rules to screw you over, it's not like he'll stop screwing with the rules if your DC goes up. And then, when he finds out you're justifiably upset with the fact that he runs his game like a petty child, he removes you from the group.
So rejoice. You've gotten out of an awful group. You seem happy about this because you've "saved a friendship," but really, is this guy your friend? He has no qualms about screwing you over, even when he gets nothing out of it - after all, it's a fantasy game. From everything you've told us, this guy does not sound like someone worth calling a friend.
Now, I don't know what your reputation with the others players is like. You optimized the hell out of that character, and if you stole the limelight from them in the process they may be bitter. But it sounds like the DM made damn sure that wouldn't happen, so unless you ticked them off some other way you should be on good terms with them. If what we're saying here rings true for you, rescue them from that DM. Point them all to this thread, if necessary. In fact, point the DM himself to this thread, if he hasn't seen it already. He needs to understand that what he did was not good DMing; it was cheating, and he needs to learn a lesson or three before he puts himself at the head of a game table again.
There are ten fighters in the group? How many players are there?
I'm confused. Was this thread to get constructive feedback to assist you, or just to talk about how you've totally tried everything and the world just hates you?
- You exploited the hell out of that character, and if you stole the limelight from them in the process they may be bitter.FTFY
The DM had no backbone to say no to the ridiculous requests, and this gave them an easy out to dump a problem player.
We don't know this. We don't even have any evidence of this. And from what the player in question has told us, he was no more a problem player than anyone else in the group, in terms of optimization, and certainly has had less of an impact on the game than others (since he never successfully casts a spell).
I'm more than willing to chalk this up to spineless DMing, but we have to accept that there's something else going on, too. I can see precious little reason to criticize the player if everything he's telling us is true. I can think of lots of reasons to level criticism at the DM, though.
Some of the posts her are quite ridiculous. Guess we play the game wrong and are sackless. Funny stuff...
Some of the posts her are quite ridiculous. Guess we play the game wrong and are sackless. Funny stuff...
I wouldn't say 'play the game wrong and are sackless,' but the dramoo in this thread does remind me of a couple LJRPs I used to frequent.
That's... that's not a good thing, by the way.
And it also probably makes me the biggest loser here. I'll go away now.
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Maze, Please cause that would work for more than 1 round? and other criticisms of high level spells
Barring innate ability to dispel magic, against these supposedly stock monsters, maze works VERY well. Most critters are going to be stuck inside for quite a few rounds (3+) as VERY few 'stock monsters' possess an overly high Intelligence bonus. Unless that campaign entirely comprised of mutant minotaur minions led by high-end outsiders, maze should get gobs of mileage. Barring failed checks to beat SR on your end, which is doubtful at best against stock monsters.
Summon Monster VII's purpose is not to provide your wizard with beat sticks to command - the critters summoned are to provide your wizard with additional ranged attack support (gobs of lantern archons), assorted buffs (numerous outsiders), flanking buddies for the other characters, aid another buddies for your own AC/Touch AC and curatives without relying upon the rest of the party as well as mooks to carry your palanquin for a short time and most importantly VERY LARGE physical blockers between the wizard and the enemy (especially the paladin).
Greater Planar Binding is no more 'cheese' than EACH MEMBER OF THE ENTIRE PLAYER CHARACTER GROUP. 'Nuff said. The main reason not to use it is the expense of the material components.
Greater Polymorph - and at 15th+ level Polymorph Any Object - has LOTS of uses beyond SoS / SoD. Get creative. Make your summoned velociraptors into DRAGONS under your complete command as one example.
Prismatic Wall is not offensive - it is defensive. It *completely blocks* pretty much *everything* from getting through it. You can't bypass it without teleportation or moving around/over it. Depending upon terrain as to how much of that kind of thing is even POSSIBLE for most creatures. This blocking is nondiscriminatory however, so use it to divide and conquer your foes (when there is more than one).
Reverse Gravity has more uses than the immediately obvious as well - just because many things fly does not mean *everything* flies. An excellent use of this is to fling your allies INTO THE AIR to intercept a dragon that's been strafing the group. mass fly or its analog is highly recommended to back this up - but you can't beat the rate of ascension / free vertical movement speed the spell can provide.
Here's a basic set of spells for you to have several of prepared: Dispel Magic and its big brother Greater Dispel Magic. Make sure you have Arcane Sight or, even better, Greater Arcane Sight up and running. See critters flying around without wings? Are you Knowledge skills up to snuff? Make the free action Knowledge check for the critter if it is flying without wings and without discernable magic items. Target the most likely magic item providing flight with a quickened dispel magic, critter loses flight mode pretty much guaranteed against the generally miserably low CL of flight-providing magic items. If it is clear magic is providing flight, a targeted dispel against the fly effect solves that problem immediately.
A 40 STR is not the same thing as a 38 INT in terms of 'means of dealing with the character's strongest ability score'. The STR is much easier to penalize or otherwise decrease than the INT score is. ray of enfeeblement, numerous numerous poisons and measly shadows can shred a 40 STR character in 2 or 3 rounds - less against hordes of shadows. I doubt it would take more than 2 rounds for a properly played gob o' greater shadows at an encounter CR sufficient to challenge this group - say, about a CR 25 - to decimate the group in a right hurry.
If your save-dependant effects were of no use, there's a magnificent feat in the APG called Arcane Blast. Short range, but it's unstoppable if your wizard is prepared to make proper use of it. quicken true strike, true seeing, see invisibility and glitterdust are your friends. You don't care about the blinding save of glitterdust - you care about the "if it's invisible, no one cares any more" part.
From the sound of the group outlined above, the group should not have remained together by any sane reasoning. Paladins and diabolist-wizard liches just don't travel in the same circles. The paladin's code is explicit in this matter.
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- You exploited the hell out of that character, and if you stole the limelight from them in the process they may be bitter.FTFY
The DM had no backbone to say no to the ridiculous requests, and this gave them an easy out to dump a problem player.
We don't know this. We don't even have any evidence of this. And from what the player in question has told us, he was no more a problem player than anyone else in the group, in terms of optimization, and certainly has had less of an impact on the game than others (since he never successfully casts a spell).
I'm more than willing to chalk this up to spineless DMing, but we have to accept that there's something else going on, too. I can see precious little reason to criticize the player if everything he's telling us is true. I can think of lots of reasons to level criticism at the DM, though.
The DM is Fail.
The Player is a cheesebuilder who posted a complaint about the DM on a messageboard frequented by other players at the table.
Sounds like a train wreck to me.
And this isn't optimization. Optimization is finding the best possible way to create a concept within the rule set.
This is pure cheese. Again a Venerable Drow Noble Lich who moved ability scores around, took a feat from a video game, and didn't have any levels added.
That isn't optimization.
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Some of the posts her are quite ridiculous. Guess we play the game wrong and are sackless. Funny stuff...
It isn't that you play the game wrong, it's that you don't play by the rules.
There is no wrongfunbad if everyone is having fun. Clearly that isn't the case at the table.
My attacks are strictly on anyone who has the gall to complain about the rules when they aren't playing by them.
And your table isn't playing anywhere close to by the rules.
Our group uses different character creation that is surely outside the core rules but that part aside we do follow the rest of the rules and the system holds together quite well. The encounters are also not straight out of the book as the op thinks they are. The rest of the group seems to have a blast except for one. I am not sure why I feel obligated to respond to a group of strangers other than being frustrated that as portrayed it looks like the dm is at fault and that just isn't the case.
I don't care about the rules all that much except the rule of fun and fair. If it isn't fun then I don't play. If it isn't fair then I man up and say something and deal with the repercussions of my actions. I think that most of this comes to what is expected from the game. I want fun times not a simulation of events that is overly complicated.
Having read all the pasts up to this point it to me is fairly obvious that the hero in question is getting cheated by the DM or should I say former DM.
Nobody makes those kinds of saves all the time. Mind you we play a much less powered game however the 3.5 build that we hear about from some of the other groups in our area make this one look tame.
Were talking half orc barbarians starting with a 18str race bumps it to +2=20 then add +3 for stats( it's a 14th level character) then add +6 belt of strength then add rage and Frenzy which both stack and you have barbarians with 29 strength before raging and after that it's 39. Then you add in leap attack and other feats the fighters in those groups are doing over 150 points of damage a round, no caster, not even the supreme damaging psions can match that.
My personal advice for the player involved is to find another game. Which I believe was what your DM wanted you to do anyway he just didn't have the nerve to do it the right way. The only other option that I could think of would be if the sorcerer player was a female and the DM was giving preferential treatment. Having the other players rag on you about how your character is not effective makes me think a new group would be better for you as well. If you can't find on then start one. Remembering the lessons you have learned about how it feels when a character is not allowed to do anything effective.
If you have never DM'd before then start very small with like a two person party and run a moduled adventure. I am playing a pick up game where the DM wants to keep his running skills sharp but doesn't have the time to run a weekly adventure so we have a pick up game. It's called Hollows last hope and it's a lot of fun. Try something like this for your self. You might like running just a much as playing and even if you don't you can't say you haven't tried.
Good luck to you and I hope you find a new group soon.
I don't think it's obvious that the DM is cheating. I'm not sure the OP has even voiced that particular concern himself so far in the thread. And we don't have the DM's side of the story. I've seen enough threads like this in the past to know that when the other side of the story is heard, it could very well turn the entire argument on its head.
In either case, since the OP isn't having fun in the game as it is, it's probably a good thing for him that he's no longer playing in it. It seems like the other players are having fun, which is also good.
I know from experience that the style of game some players think is fun, isn't necessarily my idea of fun, and the other way around. This may just have been a clashing of styles.
Triiiiiiiiiiiiinammmmmmmmmmmm!
Don't worry man. Decided to make it a popcorn run instead.
Want some? I brought extra.
