Is this Rogue build solid enough to compete with my table of Min-Maxers?


Advice


My Rogue needs some level of optimization to run with the other PC's; they are brutally powerful and leaving me in the dust with kill counts.

Characters are currently at level 3 and I expect the game to run to 16th Level? It's Serpent's Skull for anyone familiar. (No spoilers, please)

I'll be leveling as a Rogue/Scout & Duelist at higher levels. My build is as follows, Please Critique.

STR12,DEX16,CON14,INT13,WIS10,CHR10
Traits: Killer,Crew Member (Grants Survival as Class Skill)
Rogue Talent: Combat Trick, Dodge
Feats:Weapon Focus Rapier, Weapon Finesse, Toughness

I plan to add,

Feats: Mobility, Combat Expertise, Vital Strike, Improved Disarm
Rogue Talents: Befuddling Strike, Bleeding Attack, Fast Stealth

Suggestions to make this stronger or better rounded at least into the Teens would be welcome.

Thanks!


Midnight-Gamer wrote:

My Rogue needs some level of optimization to run with the other PC's; they are brutally powerful and leaving me in the dust with kill counts.

Characters are currently at level 3 and I expect the game to run to 16th Level? It's Serpent's Skull for anyone familiar. (No spoilers, please)

I'll be leveling as a Rogue/Scout & Duelist at higher levels. My build is as follows, Please Critique.

STR12,DEX16,CON14,INT13,WIS10,CHR10
Traits: Killer,Crew Member (Grants Survival as Class Skill)
Rogue Talent: Combat Trick, Dodge
Feats:Weapon Focus Rapier, Weapon Finesse, Toughness

I plan to add,

Feats: Mobility, Combat Expertise, Vital Strike, Improved Disarm
Rogue Talents: Befuddling Strike, Bleeding Attack, Fast Stealth

Suggestions to make this stronger or better rounded at least into the Teens would be welcome.

Thanks!

This seems like a solid build. But may I suggest, if you already have a group of Min/Maxers then why not become the master Manipulator?. Take 3 Levels Rogue (Charlatan) with Cunning Lie Talent and then Bard (Demagogue), A character who can make anyone believe anything, can cause a city to follow his every word and do as he pleases even if that means causing all citizens to attack people you wish or incite revolutions. And with the Cunning Lie you cement your control and lies.

Though that is just what I would do.


"Rogue (Charlatan) with Cunning Lie Talent and then Bard (Demagogue)"

That's a great way to contribute without trying to shoehorn the combat side of things, I like it!

I favor Hack n Slash over RP, I fear that I'd get bored with the above suggestion. Not that it's bad, it's just not the type of character I prefer.

Thanks!


How much, just out of curiousity, are you willing to change the build? If I suggested another build that was entirely different, would you be interested? (Not to say that your build is in any way bad, but you are asking for optimization here)

Things to entice:

1.) The ability to make enemies shaken for entire fights.
2.) The ability to make enemies run away in fear at will (no save).
3.) 2x sneak attack damage. (has to be nonlethal though)
4.) All the above by lvl 5.

prototype00


prototype00 wrote:

How much, just out of curiousity, are you willing to change the build? If I suggested another build that was entirely different, would you be interested? (Not to say that your build is in any way bad, but you are asking for optimization here)

Things to entice:

1.) The ability to make enemies shaken for entire fights.
2.) The ability to make enemies run away in fear at will (no save).
3.) 2x sneak attack damage. (has to be nonlethal though)
4.) All the above by lvl 5.

prototype00

Feel free to make any suggestion you please! What do you have in mind?

Silver Crusade

No not even close pleas try agan. This is a very bad combat build for a min/max combat character. Need to know if you rolled or point buy. And how meny points if it's a point buy. What weapons where you going to use. How tight is your DM with gear like eastern weapons and armor.

1: Duelist is one of the worst PrC ever. For making a good combat character.
2: Dex base builds are good. For low level past level 10 they lose alot of there ability to keap up with a str base build. They will go first most of the time but hit light. With out spending alot of coin on specal equipment. And you will not have the ability to do so in this AP.
3: Min/Max rogue are one of the hardest things to make. Unless you plan on encountering alot of traps. It is best to make a Ranger for combat or Bard for utility and do more good then the Rogue.


This:

Da Pimp, enemies run in fear as you slap them silly:

Human Rogue (Scout, Thug)

Feats:
1st: Weapon Finesse
Human Bonus: Sap Adept
3rd: Knockout Artist
5th: Sap Mastery

Rogue Talents:
2nd: Ninja Trick (Unarmed Combat Training)
4th: Combat Trick (Enforcer)

So at 5th level, whenever you charge someone, they are flatfooted (thanks to scout). Since they are flat footed, you deal double nonlethal sneak attack damage (6d6, thanks to sap mastery).

Since you were using your pimp-hand to deal the damage, you deal 1.5 times your level in extra damage due to sap adept and knockout artist. (In this case at level 5, 9 extra damage)

Now Enforcer comes into play, you can intimidate your foe as a free action, because you dealth nonlethal damage (Hope you didn't dump cha). If you succeed, they are shaken for a number of rounds based on the damage you just did (6d6 + 9 minimum), so lets say, forever, basically.
Thats -2 to attacks, skills, saves.

...Or you could switch all those rounds of shaken for one round of frightend (via the thug archetype) where:

Quote:
A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear.

Which is basically taking any enemy out of the fight for one round, guarunteed and best part is, no save. And since the target for intimidate is static (10 + HD + wis mod), boost it enough (I recommend a cane that gives you an enhancement bonus to intimidate) and you don't have to worry about the enemy making a lucky roll.

Bedtime now, will answer questions on the morrow.

prototype00


calagnar wrote:
And how meny points if it's a point buy.

I used 15 point buy while everyone else rolled. We are level three and three of the players have been through several sets of characters, only mine is original. The last batch they rolled has incredibly high ability scores all around.

I would like ideas to make the existing character better, or a fresh character that can compete if the one I have dies.


Rogues will never out do min/maxed full BAB characters except in rare circumstances . What about rogue do you like? If we know that, we can better help.


prototype00 wrote:

This:

** spoiler omitted **

Bedtime now, will answer questions on the morrow.

prototype00

This is very good.


Cheapy wrote:
Rogues will never out do min/maxed full BAB characters except in rare circumstances . What about rogue do you like? If we know that, we can better help.

I usually play the fighter, but I'm trying something new. Out-damaging the Fighter is not my goal, I'd like to at least be able to help in combat.


Midnight-Gamer wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Rogues will never out do min/maxed full BAB characters except in rare circumstances . What about rogue do you like? If we know that, we can better help.

I usually play the fighter, but I'm trying something new. Out-damaging the Fighter is not my goal, I'd like to at least be able to help in combat.

Ah, ya. I misread the part where you were already playing this guy.

You could perhaps ask about switching to be a Vivesectionist alchemist. They get sneak attack too, lots of skills.

And they hit hard, due to the Mutagen (and feral mutagen!)

Silver Crusade

You will need to start by rethinking what makes a good rogue over all. 15 point buy is very tough to work with. It requires you to have dump stats. If the other players rolled I wold ask your DM if you can roll or up the point buy to 20. To be on a more even playing field.

This is min/maxed for combat not somthing I normal play.
Human
Rogue 1/ Ranger 2 (Rogue 14/ Ranger 6)
Str 17 (All level up points here)
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 7
Feats:
Human: Two Weapon Fighting
1: Exotic Weapon : Wakizashi
3: Improved Initiative
Ranger Combat Style
2: Double Slice
Traits: Reactionary(+2Init), Boarded in the Shackles (+1Will)

This by passes the Dex requirements for Improved Two Weapon fighting. It gives you exploration skills and abilitys as well.


Can you post all your build? i mean vital strike is good if you plan to use a great sword, if you will use a rapier then do not take it choose instead Pranha strike. Also you need doodge to qualify for movility.

Ninja trick (preasure point): will help you to debuff the enemy.
Befuddling strike: for more chance to survive.
Ofensive defense: oh yea more chance to survive.
Finnese rogue: save the feat for something else.
Lasting poison: Dont play fair
Swift poison: If you can do Con damage


Nicos wrote:

Can you post all your build?

Human Rogue/Scout Level 3 Name "Davy Jones" Lawful Good

STR12 DEX16 CON14 INT13 WIS10 CHR10
HP 33 Saves Ref+6 Fort+3 Will+1

Base Att+2 ,Favored Class-Rogue
Armor, Chain Shirt, AC18
Weapon Rapier Att+6 Damage 1d6+1(18-20/X2)+2 extra Dmg on a crit via the Killer trait.

Rogue Trait: Combat Trick, grants bonus feat, Dodge

Feats,
Weapon Focus Rapier
Weapon Finesse
Toughness

Things come together at level four. During a charge I can add Sneak Attack for 1d6+1 and 2d6 SA. With befuddling strike & later, Mobility; I can switch from target to target with little chance of being hit with AOO's.


I do not like combat expertise nor Improved disarm, you simply do not have the CMB to be good at disarming, and if you face something than do not use manufactured weapongs then you wasted 2 feats.

Maybe you want iron will ( i suggest that feat mainly because i hate to fail a will save)

and when you rise your dex add the agile property to the rapier


Nicos wrote:
I do not like combat expertise nor Improved disarm, you simply do not have the CMB to be good at disarming, and if you face something than do not use manufactured weapongs then you wasted 2 feats.

Noted. Keep in mind, by the time I'd take Improved Disarm, I'd be leveling as a full BaB class. I'll be taking this under advisement.


Then, agile manuever will help you


Is Improved Feint worth the investment with my Rogues low charisma?

I don't think Piranha Strike is allowed in my game. How about adding a point of strength and taking Power attack/Furious Focus?


A lot of people think improved feint is not worthwhile even with a high CHA. Personally, I disagree with them. =P

I would say improved feint is only going to help if you know you will always win that roll, which is not guaranteed without a CHA bonus, though it does favor the attacker more in PF than it did in 3.5.

Silver Crusade

Improved Feint is a wasted feat with out the bluff to back it. Along with the fact that is one attack per round. And can be out damage by far with one power attack by any str base full BAB class with a two handed weapon.

Piranha Strike dose incress you damage but thats not where you will have problems. It is in the to hit that will bring the problems. Rogues have the revers problem of full BAB classes. They have the damage, but need the to hit and position. Full BAB classes have the to hit, but need the damage.

Fighters : Any thing that incress there damage will do the most good for there DPR.
Rogues : Any thing that incress there to hit will do the most good for there DPR.

With making a rogue work in a Min/Max group. You have to come to the table with the understanding of how rogues work. It more often then not people are stuck in the though of the old school rogues of dex, and int being the most important stats for them. This is just not true.


You're a rogue. If they're optimizing you're hosed.

Run the ninja and call it a rogue, you MIGHT keep up.

Dex is a trap for combat rogues. You're feat starved to start with and it sucks in a feat, but it might pay off at higher levels.

You have acrobatics, mobility is redundant.

Disarm isn't the best tactic. You trade your attack for their move action IF the opponent even uses a weapon. You can't disarm things without weapons, which get pretty common as you level (in general, your campaign might be different)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Ideally you should also be massively tumbling and not need Mobility. Although the Scout ability does make this ability useful for multiple combatants.

Consider asking the other guys if there might be some Teamwork feats that will help everyone out. Improved flanking = bonus to hit = helps everyone.

Is it the Butterfly Swing? That one where you 'give away the crit'. Your axe or falcata wielder friend will get a lot of mileage away if you hand him the crit from your high crit range rapier...

Keep in mind that Serpent's Skull has a need for a high Skills guy, but not generally in the Rogue's classic skills. If those skills were important, you'd be better off just using a ranger and exploiting favored enemy. The module calls for some very high perform, diplomancy, and intimidate checks later on. A social style skill character can be very useful. Serpent's Skull is 'almost' a kingdom building AP. You need that 'king' character to really rock it.

The Rogue suffers from not being able to SA alone easily, and eats up precious feats attempting to do so. The Scout works because you can move around and SA without needing to flank. Talk to the others and see if you can get some synergy going. You don't have to outperform them...that's not the Rogue's job. The Rogue's job is to set things up for the Melees, and with a couple of good feats you can do just that.

===Aelryinth

Dark Archive

No on keeping up. You're taking the weakest class and making it even weaker with a bad prestige class. You'll be outdamAged and outclassed.

I'd suggest an Urban Ranger, but if you must be a rogue:

Dwarf urban barbarian 1 / rogue 2
Str: 16 (all level bumps here)
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Chr: 5

HP: 28
AC: 14
Saves: Fort: +4 Will: +3 Ref: +3 (+2 VS all magic)
Traits: Heirloom weapon (Horsechopper, +2 to trip), +1 will save
Feats: Gang Up, Combat Reflexes, Rogue Talent (Combat Expertise)
5: Improved Trip (and weapon focus) 7: Power Attack 9: Greater Improved Trip
CMB: Trip (+7)... will be +12 @ 5th.
Attack: +5 (d10 +4)... +8 @ 5th
Very survivable (insane saves, good HP), with a solid Str and plenty of skill points. The urban barbarian grants AC when people get near and starts you with a nice ability to get +4 strength 6 rounds / day. Gang up makes flanking more managable. The dwarf shores up most of the weaknesses of the rogue (poor survivability), and makes you hard to dominate. Your AC sucks, but you make up for it by keeping opponents at reach and tripping them with AOOs as they get into range. Plus, that barbarian level gave you lots of HP to start your career. Max out bluff and play a liar; fun way to comp that low charisma (seems untrustworthy, but his words seem so real....)


The above build makes my list. =)

Sovereign Court

Midnight-Gamer wrote:
The above build makes my list. =)

I like the 'Dirty Fighter' trait for rogues.

Dark Archive

For the record, you'd drop the int to 13 and Wis to 11 to get that Dex back up to 14; suddenly realized you were on 15 point buy; dropped Dex before remembering that combat reflexes saves lives :). You need those 3 AOOs to keep guys away; -2 to will and perception hurts, but sacrifices do have to be made.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Quote:

Dwarf urban barbarian 1 / rogue 2

Str: 16 (all level bumps here)
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Chr: 5

If you're a STR build, barbarian[urban] does nothing for you (you don't get the Fast move either) -- you're much better off with "regular" rage boosting your paltry rogue hit-dice and saving throws. B[u] is for the DEX-boosters.

- - - - -

To the OP: if the other guys rolled, you do 20pt buy. (It's amazing, I tell yeh, how often multiple 16s and 17s appear on those dice.)

- - - - -

Strong rogue:

Half-elf 20pt
STR+18
DEX:15
CON:13
INT:08
WIS:12
CHA:10

racial: Ancestral Arms
trait: Berserker of the Society, Dangerously Curious
01 barb1 01 move+10, EWP:Fauchard, Extra Rage (14r/day)
02 figh1 02 [unarmed] Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style
03 rogu1 02 [bandit][thug] SA+1d6
04 rogu2 03 [evasion][combat trick] Two Weapon Fighting, CON>14
05 rogu3 04 [Brutal Beating] Raging Vitality, SA+2d6
06 rogu4 05 [Ambush][weapon training] Weapon Focus:Fauchard
07 barb2 06 [Uncanny Dodge][Reckless Abandon] Power Attack
08 rogu5 06 DEX>16, SA+3d6
09 rogu6 07 [Surprise Attack] Lunge
10 figh2 08 Combat Reflexes
11 rogu7 09 SA+4d6, Critical Focus
12 rogu8 10 [Fearsome Strike][TALENT]

4th: the idea here is the TWF with polearm attack and unarmed strike.

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