So, looking at some dangers coming up with my pathfinder group... And it occured to me that the fighter is wearing adamantine full plate.
I know real world, with a decent amount of weight on you (for overall density), it's impossible to swim without special equipment.
I can't find the rules, or are there any rules for being too heavy to swim? And are swim check minuses soley based on the armor check penalty of a suit of armor?
So, looking at some dangers coming up with my pathfinder group... And it occured to me that the fighter is wearing adamantine full plate.
I know real world, with a decent amount of weight on you (for overall density), it's impossible to swim without special equipment.
I can't find the rules, or are there any rules for being too heavy to swim? And are swim check minuses soley based on the armor check penalty of a suit of armor?
Armor Check penalty or Encumbrance Modifier, which ever is greater modifies the swim check. That's all I've ever scene.
I'm uncertain if it made it's way into pathfinder, but in 3.X you got an additional -1 to swim skills per 5 or 10 lbs of weight on you IIRC. Our group plays with that rule and it almost killed our dwarven defender in second darkness twice.
I'm uncertain if it made it's way into pathfinder, but in 3.X you got an additional -1 to swim skills per 5 or 10 lbs of weight on you IIRC. Our group plays with that rule and it almost killed our dwarven defender in second darkness twice.
I like this rule. I'll use it, making the 50 pounds of steel for a normal suit of full plate, plus the -6 armor check. Now, for most characters that makes a medium encumberance for an additional -3. So a grand total of -19. It doesn't say adamantine is heavier, but -19 is bad enough.
I'm uncertain if it made it's way into pathfinder, but in 3.X you got an additional -1 to swim skills per 5 or 10 lbs of weight on you IIRC. Our group plays with that rule and it almost killed our dwarven defender in second darkness twice.I like this rule. I'll use it, making the 50 pounds of steel for a normal suit of full plate, plus the -6 armor check. Now, for most characters that makes a medium encumberance for an additional -3. So a grand total of -19. It doesn't say adamantine is heavier, but -19 is bad enough.
Encumbrance doesn't stack with armor penalty. Also this rule didn't get brought over on purpose.
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Air bladder -- it's amazing how little is really needed to keep a guy in armor floating.
Back in v3.5, the armor check penalty was doubled for the swim skill.
D&D Wiki Reference.
This was dropped in Pathfinder, but I retain it as a house rule.
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Swimming at +5 means that at level 7 (remember, a level way above any commoner, allowing you to destroy big things in one blow ?), a vanilla fighter with Armor Training and an armor of exceptional quality can move at half his speed in water, with a 1/4 chance to fail his check in calm water.
It was possible in real life, it isn't granted in a fantasy game until mid-level and ressources - hardly non-sensical IMHO.
I would also point to the fact that I didn't propose any specific rules.
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Yeah, I think the actual rule makes non-sense also.
Actually, a fighter can swim sooo easily.
At 1st level the example fighter is a +2, which is pretty weak swimming. In fact, if you assume "knows how to swim" means at least 1 rank in Swim, that fighter is barely better than a newbie swimmer... and worse than a newbie swimmer who has Swim as a class skill (1 rank + 3 class skill + 0 Str = +4). And because you go underwater if you fail by 5 or more, in calm water (DC 10) the example fighter flounders and sinks 15% of the time (fails by 5 or more on a 1–3, which is 15%).
IMO, if a heroic character's chance to drown in calm water is low, that's fine. Preferable, even, to a high chance of drowning in calm water.
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The first time my dwarven fighter went swimming she sank like a stone. Luckily, it wasn't *that* deep or monster filled of a lake and it turns out dwarven fighters can apparently hold their breath for a good, long while. She walked along the bottom until she found the shore. I consider that incident her lucky break. Since then she has been very careful around bodies of water over 3 ft deep.
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I'm uncertain if it made it's way into pathfinder, but in 3.X you got an additional -1 to swim skills per 5 or 10 lbs of weight on you IIRC. Our group plays with that rule and it almost killed our dwarven defender in second darkness twice.
That was a 3.0 rule, and it led to its own set of nonsensical situations, like a wooden block dragging someone down into the depths because of its weight.
I played a dwarven defender back in 3.0-I never considered drowning a problem becasue I could hold my breath long enough to remove the armor. Big Con+Endurance=hold breath a long long time.
I'm uncertain if it made it's way into pathfinder, but in 3.X you got an additional -1 to swim skills per 5 or 10 lbs of weight on you IIRC. Our group plays with that rule and it almost killed our dwarven defender in second darkness twice.
Well it wasnt 3.x actually it was 3.0. In 3.5 you doubled armor check penalties to swim. In pathfinder you just apply armor check penalties. So a higher level figther can swim with easy in his masterwork fullplate.
I didnt mind the principal of the 3.x rule, but it was too general. Straight weight is not a direct indicator of density which is what actually matters in swimming. For instance overweight people float better then heavily muscled people even if they weigh more because fat is less dense then muscle. Or if i am carrying 100lbs of sponges, it is less of an impedement to swimming then 50lbs of steel.
I know real world, with a decent amount of weight on you (for overall density), it's impossible to swim without special equipment.
You know what else is impossible in the real world? Flying. And magic. And dragons. And hundreds of other things that are vital parts of this fantasy game. :P
And even without supernatural stuff, if the game has humans that can bench press a white whale, I don't mind them being able to swim in heavy armour.
Cthulu is always annoyed by knights falling off boats.
The obvious solution, wear Plate Mail of the Deep!
Or a Greater Crystal of Aquatic Action.
In my game, two 2nd or 3rd level dwarven fighters get miserable failures on Swim rolls and drowned. It was a sad day. It happens.
In my game, two 2nd or 3rd level dwarven fighters get miserable failures on Swim rolls and drowned. It was a sad day. It happens.
Wait, you said that a couple of dwarves drowned. What terrible thing happened to make that day a sad day?
The PCs are larger-than-life fantasy-fiction heroes, not real-world schmucks. That's all that needs be said.
I don't see any reason to pick on the "swim" skill. It suffers the same silliness as many other skills which are based on a single attribute and should be based on the best of two or more attributes instead.
And because you go underwater if you fail by 5 or more, in calm water (DC 10) the example fighter flounders and sinks 15% of the time (fails by 5 or more on a 1–3, which is 15%).
Albeit the rules don't actually cover the sinking part, they just say "If you fail by 5 or more, you go underwater."
So when you need to invoke Holding Breath/Drowning rules is clear enough from the Swim rules,but not really anything about when any sinking movement occurs or how much/how far it is, or how it relates to weight/buoyancy/etc.
In my game, two 2nd or 3rd level dwarven fighters get miserable failures on Swim rolls and drowned. It was a sad day. It happens.
But somebody told me that you only ever needed 1 rank in Swim!
1 Rank is more like the minimum, since it allows Taking 10 in non-combat: I prefer having no chance to drown in Calm Water in non-combat.
But even then if your modifier including Armor Check Penalty is <0 then you still need more Ranks to pass a basic Calm Water DC by Taking 10.
(You can also Take 10 in Rough Water, albeit the DC is 15 instead of 10)
As far as in-combat goes, there isn't THAT much difference between failing by 5+ and merely failing, in either case you can't move but you can still do other things and you just have to start Holding Breath, in both cases the same "Off Balance" penalties apply (Denied DEX, -2AC). Perhaps the difference matters the most for casters, who need to make a Concentration check for any Spell and would need to stop Holding their Breath in order to even try casting Verbal spells. But if your Swim modifier isn't that bad you will pass it sooner or later (in DC10 Calm Water) and no longer be below water.
(Failing the check and "going under" doesn't actually cause you to sink each round, there's no reason to change squares just because one round you passed the check and were in the water breathing from the surface, and the next round you failed the check and are "under water" and subject to Drowning).
Of course, if you want to worry about non-Calm Rough or even Stormy Water (or even just 'poor circumstances' in Calm Water) then you need to make sure your Swim modifier can handle that routinely.
If you think swimming is bad - try jumping!
My half-orc inquisitor has an 18 Strength*, 13 Dexterity and wears four-mirror armor. He has no ranks in Acrobatics. +1 Dexterity, -5 check penalty, -4 speed penalty. He has a -8 penalty to jump. Which is to say that after running down a hallway and trying to leap over a small gap, he has nearly even odds of making no distance whatsoever. I mention Strength because I find it a bit absurd that such a strong character cannot reliably leap even 5 feet forward in what amounts to chain mail.
1 Rank is more like the minimum, since it allows you to Take 10 in non-combat
Huh? Where is this stated?
I think the take 10 rule may need to be revisited soon - I've seen indications here and there that you cannot take 10 with all skills in non-combat situations - abilities that allow you to take 10 on Knowledge skills or on Spellcraft checks while detecting magic come to mind. Unfortunately I can't find them, but I do know it came from a Paizo source.
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The Environment chapter (which has Swim related rules in two or more sub-sections):
Similarly, swimming in calm water only requires Swim skill checks with a DC of 10. Trained swimmers can just take 10.
Which is hardly a surprising rule, since it just means that people not trained in Swimming will flounder sometimes (and possibly drown if unlucky enough) even in Calm Water. Whereas somebody with 1 rank and a skill modifier of 0 (No Class Skill and 8 STR or 10 STR w/ ACP-1) can pass the DC10 Calm Water check INDEFINITELY, with the DC20 Swim check to avoid 1d6 Non-Lethal damage the only thing (besides sleep) stopping them from swimming indefinitely.
Although your point about Take 10 is a good one: it isn't made clear up front that some skills CAN'T use Take 10, that should be Errata'd.
For Swim in particular, that there is a difference between Trained/Untrained (as indicated by Environment chapter) SHOULD be indicated by an 'Untrained' entry in the skill description, which is supposed to indicated differences between Trained/Untrained usage. Honestly, that (or the Environment chapter reference to Trained characters) is Errata material, either one or the other should change, because the format for Skill descriptions is clear:
Untrained: This entry indicates what a character without at least 1 rank in the skill can do with it. If this entry doesn't appear, it means that the skill functions normally for untrained characters (if it can be used untrained) or that an untrained character can't attempt checks with this skill (for skills that are designated “Trained Only”).
That's kind of the problem with rules being split up in different sections... In this case when the 'normal' function of a skill (re: Taking 10) is tucked away in another section, it's easy to overlook that that a difference about Untrained/Trained needs to be pointed out. The Swim skill description already notes you can't Take 10 in Stormy Waters (even if you're Trained), that just needs to be extended to say you can't Take 10 at all unless Trained.
I know real world, with a decent amount of weight on you (for overall density), it's impossible to swim without special equipment.
Training can overcome that. I've seen a video of a Navy SEAL swimming with his hands and legs bound wearing something like 100 pounds of gear.
Since the real world's greatest people have been no more than level 6, I see nothing wrong with a fighter that is a high enough level to get adamantine plate swimming in it.
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mplindustries, i would like to see that. I believe you and do not doubt that the seals can do that but that is something i would love to see.
Back on topic, As stated before a PC is hero and unless they invest a good number of ranks into swim then they will sink like a rock (or suit of armor) the idea of spending 5+ ranks in a skill is making you better than most people in the world. Someone with a 14 strength and a class skill id swim is going to have a +10 on swim checks that leaves them with a +4 if wearing full plate, a normal human has about a 10-12 strength and would be a level 1-2 if they spent two of their 4 skill points on swimming they could get a +6 then break even with full plate and have a 50% chance of moving slowly across calm water (10 Ft per round) that would be a swimmer who is trained most of their life to be that and likely does not have any other real skills (only 2 other skill points) So yes it is weird to think a person can swim with 50+ pounds of metal strapped to them but if you think about the training they do for this then it makes more sense, a normal commoner (1 HD, 10 STR, and no ranks) has a total -6 to swim and sill likely die if they wore that armor in a lake.
mplindustries, i would like to see that. I believe you and do not doubt that the seals can do that but that is something i would love to see.
I've been searching for a video of it since I posted initially and can't find one. I didn't see it online, though, it was on TV. It was a very controlled environment, obviously, in a big tank so you could see through the side and a guy nearby with a huge hammer or something to smash the tank just in case.
They had a Navy SEAL go in and basically tried to drown him. First, they tied him up and he swam no problem (turns out this is part of normal SEAL training, called Drown-proofing, anyway). Then, they added more and more weight to his vest and he just kept swimming like it was nothing. After 100 lbs., he had a little trouble getting an initial bob up to the surface, but ultimately had no issues. I think they couldn't put any more weight on him with the vest they had, so they ended the test. When they spoke to him afterwards, he wasn't even winded and basically said in a real life "drowning" situation, he would probably die of hypothermia in the water before he drowned.
I wish I could remember what show it was--every time I search the internet, I just get the same exercise videos on how to train like a Navy SEAL.
wow good thing as a group we are cracking down on one of the few things fighters and other martials might be good at. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming of wizards... zomg... magic... yadda yadda yadda
Sadly, it's not something that fighters and other martials might be good at, it's something anyone with high strength and the swim skill might be good at it, casters included.
armor check penalties are probably bad enough. I mean, once you've hit 5th level, drowning shouldn't be much of an issue anymore. If your fighter has adamantine full plate, probably there's somebody around with access to water walk or water breathing or something like that.
Incidentally, there's nothing that says Adamantine is actually any heavier than steel. It's just harder. Common mistake. To use an analogy, diamonds are harder than lead, but lead is much heavier.
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I always find hilarious when people "fight" against parts of the game they find non-sensical, but choose to "ignore" the rest of the game, who is also unrealistic.
So a character swiming in full plate is bad-wrong-fun. But a 10th lvl fighter being able to survive 1000 feet falls is OK. A goblin being unable to coup-de-grace a sleeping guy with a dagger is no problem. And the worst issue of all: Initiative, get no calls.
So Character A beats character B in initiative by the lowest margin possible. Like they both roll the same, but A has slightly higher DEX. A can take his bow, and shoot six full arrows thanks to high level, specialization, rapid and manyshot, in less than a split of a second, before the other guy can shoot back. If character B somewhat survives, it's then it's turn, and can drop his own bow as a free action, use a swift action to say "I'm going to go where you are, and cut your bow with my dagger", then use his move action to move 30 feet, take his dagger as part of his movement, and cut the bow, all of that without the guy who just shoot 6 arrows in half seconc can even make a single step back.
All of this? Completelly OK. Nothing wrong with that. But a guy swimming with extra weight (you know, like current marines train to do)... oh no! That's not acceptable!
/shrug.
It's a damn fantasy heroic game, guys. Real world people couldn't keep fighting after being hit by 10 arrows, or being crushed by a 60 ton dragon landing on him. But this isn't real world, it's a damn fantasy heroic game.
mplindustries, i would like to see that. I believe you and do not doubt that the seals can do that but that is something i would love to see.
Not Seals, but Marines. I think it works the same.
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Swimming at +5 means that at level 7 (remember, a level way above any commoner, allowing you to destroy big things in one blow ?), a vanilla fighter with Armor Training and an armor of exceptional quality can move at half his speed in water, with a 1/4 chance to fail his check in calm water.
It was possible in real life, it isn't granted in a fantasy game until mid-level and ressources - hardly non-sensical IMHO.I would also point to the fact that I didn't propose any specific rules.
excuses for necroing, but i was wondering if this is STILL the way it is?
Because it seems nonsensical.
As for this being "possible" in real life, i'd expect it from a good, trained swimmer, not somebody that got 1 rank in swimming.
Honestly, that kind of irks me.
A Fighter in Full Plate with Heavy Load with one Skill Rank being a better swimmer than, say, a Sorcerer with one Skill Rank in Swim, naked.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not looking for the old "get out of your armor or die drowning"-rules, but it seems utterly nonsensical that basically no real skill investment is needed.
As a matter of fact, all strenght-based classes with Masterwork Armors and physical Class Skills can just throw 1 Skill Point there and be decent swimmers.
In Armor. Any of you ever tried swimming with clothes/weights in real life?
Now, before a rebuttal "this is not real life" comes up: I KNOW, but i'd expect such heroic feats such as marathon swimming in a full plate with a heavy backpack to be accomplished by people investing more than 1 skill point into it. -_-Ah well, guess it's houserule time there unless there was some errata.
Heavy load give you a -6 check penalty and being a fighter don't help with that.
Armor training cover exactly that, your armor encumbrance penalty, it do nothing for the weight of what you carry.So your fighter with a heavy encumbrance and a masterwork full plate will have +3 for a class skill, +1 for his rank and either a -1 for the masterwork full plate encumbrance or -6 for the heavy load.
As the rules say "If your character is wearing armor, use the worse figure (from armor or from load) for each category. Do not stack the penalties.", you fighter would have a a total swim skill, before factoring his strength, of -2.
Assuming a strength of 20, he would have a +3 to his skill check.
Enough to survive if the water is calm and he has entered it willingly, so that he can take 10.
If he has to roll the dices, he need a 7+ to progress and a 2+ to avoid sinking.
Rough water (and that includes most rivers, even large and placid ones, rule notwithstanding, as even the most placid rivers tend to have dangerous currents in some section of their beds) would always require a check, with success at 12+ and sinking with 6-.
The sorcerer with one skill and no strength modifier will not be really far behind, he would have a +1 to the skill.
Try falling in water as a cleric with strength 7 wearing a breastplate...
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Reality is unrealistic!
I stated repeatedly that i'm totally fine with superhuman feats being accomplished.
Simply not for absolutely no commitment. As mentioned, that Dwarf that just learned swimming can do so in Stone Plate with a backpack full of about 140 lbs of stones. for 1 Skill Rank.He's totally welcome to learn to do that, if he becomes a better swimmer, getting more ranks. No problem there.
My gripe is that ALL the investment the swim skill is gonna need is 1 rank.
So what you want is to make Swim a skill point sink, making fighters even more worthless in skills, forcing them to waste half their skills per level just to be able to survive if someone pushes them off a ship, and not being able to do that until they have 10+ ranks in the skill (when other classes are teleporting around, that is)
I would preffer it if Swim weren't a skill at all, so nobody has to waste skill points in it, go figure. Athletics skill could cover that. Different playstyles or point-of-views, I guess.