Why is there so much hate for 3PP, and what can I, no, we, do to change that?


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KTFish7 wrote:
stuff

*sigh*

While I'm sure your anecdotal evidence is great and all, PF continues to sell just great with the PFSRD in place. I play in two groups that both purchase every PF book (at least PDF) and routinely use the SRD. I imagine most people here on the boards are the same way. The iPhone apps that make the most money? Have free versions. Unless you're top 3-4 out there, free to play is the way to go for MMOs. Radio has worked wonders for decades as a promotional tool despite being free to listen to, etc.

As for the bands you "deal with", I guess all I have is 10 years of experience and a degree in recording that disagrees with you. CDs aren't really what I was talking about though. Free music and the music industry is a distinctly different way of making money. Who the heck uses CDs to promote anymore, mp3 downloads. Remember, it's indirect and not immediate. You give out free music you are promoting yourself, and bands make the majority of their money by touring. Make a fan and you have sold a ticket next time you play their town.

Same with giving away free product. You earn the good will of those who are on the receiving end...IF they like it. You can give away a lousy product and no one will use it. Which is why it's important you don't give away some lame dusty thing but a AAA product. Or at least free, usable previews, like Paizo has done with beta tests.

You keep acting like these things don't work, but they do, and they will. People aren't going to purchase something from a no-name publisher on blind faith. Holding on miserly demanding cash on the barrel head for an unproven product isn't serving anyone.

I suggest everyone watch this. He's talking about the music industry but the principles apply to any business and especially smaller businesses competing for time and enthusiasm of a fandom.


Giving away free stuff does work. I mean, clearly not giving away everything. But getting stuff out there does wonders, especially if the recipient talks about it.


I haven't read the whole thread but I have an idea. Since Paizo does support 3PP publishers better than I saw from another company, why not tale it one step further? Find an original 3PP and do a supporting PDF for it, just like they do for Paizo. To make sure it doesn't affect PFS, just state that it isn't legit for PFS.


On the people that do purchase 3PP product, how much to you think you spend in a month on 3PP products?


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

hmmm, i've probably spend somewhere around $300 on 3rd party products between everything from Super genius games, The Tome of Horrors and Slumbering Tsar from Frog god games, Psionics Unleashed from Dream scarred press (those are the big ones) and then a handfull of others from various publishers. So I guess averaging somewhere around $25-$30 a month?


I don't typically allow third party products, but I do permit well-vetted homebrews. When I stop to think about it, that's a weird policy. I think the difference is psychological; letting a published work into my game feels like opening a can of worms, while writing or helping to write new material feels like a much more limited (and provisional) alteration to the rules.

If you've got a GM like me, one tactic might be to point to the third party class/feat/whatever of your choice and say, "I like this. Can we come up with a version of it that I can play?" That turns your question from a yes/no into an invitation for input and modification.

Contributor

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread but I have an idea. Since Paizo does support 3PP publishers better than I saw from another company, why not tale it one step further? Find an original 3PP and do a supporting PDF for it, just like they do for Paizo. To make sure it doesn't affect PFS, just state that it isn't legit for PFS.

If you're asking that Paizo put together something for a 3PP and release it, this simply isn't something that we have room in our product schedule for. We're full up on our own products (and then some)!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Liz Courts wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread but I have an idea. Since Paizo does support 3PP publishers better than I saw from another company, why not tale it one step further? Find an original 3PP and do a supporting PDF for it, just like they do for Paizo. To make sure it doesn't affect PFS, just state that it isn't legit for PFS.
If you're asking that Paizo put together something for a 3PP and release it, this simply isn't something that we have room in our product schedule for. We're full up on our own products (and then some)!

What might be best is something like this, Monte Cook Presents: The Year's Best d20 but done by one of the Paizo staff or more respected community reviewers. You need someone who is legitimately respected by a large number of the Paizo fan base to do something like this which would only add credibility to 3PP.


LMPjr007 wrote:
Liz Courts wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread but I have an idea. Since Paizo does support 3PP publishers better than I saw from another company, why not tale it one step further? Find an original 3PP and do a supporting PDF for it, just like they do for Paizo. To make sure it doesn't affect PFS, just state that it isn't legit for PFS.
If you're asking that Paizo put together something for a 3PP and release it, this simply isn't something that we have room in our product schedule for. We're full up on our own products (and then some)!
What might be best is something like this, Monte Cook Presents: The Year's Best d20 but done by one of the Paizo staff or more respected community reviewers. You need someone who is legitimately respected by a large number of the Paizo fan base to do something like this which would only add credibility to 3PP.

That's actually a pretty cool idea IMO. Even if it doesn't fit into Paizo's release schedule now, it would be something to work on in the future.


Doesn't Rite Publishing's Pathways somewhat offer that niche?


LMPjr007 wrote:
Liz Courts wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread but I have an idea. Since Paizo does support 3PP publishers better than I saw from another company, why not tale it one step further? Find an original 3PP and do a supporting PDF for it, just like they do for Paizo. To make sure it doesn't affect PFS, just state that it isn't legit for PFS.
If you're asking that Paizo put together something for a 3PP and release it, this simply isn't something that we have room in our product schedule for. We're full up on our own products (and then some)!
What might be best is something like this, Monte Cook Presents: The Year's Best d20 but done by one of the Paizo staff or more respected community reviewers. You need someone who is legitimately respected by a large number of the Paizo fan base to do something like this which would only add credibility to 3PP.

Done by Paizo staff. Most definitely.


Urizen wrote:
Doesn't Rite Publishing's Pathways somewhat offer that niche?

Pathways is good, but reviews done by Paizo staff would have a ton of credibility.


SKR wrote the foreword to this book.


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I was a Paizo loyalist (so to speak) until I started downloading free content from other publishers. The quality of the content, initially 0One's Maps (because I can't draw to save my life) opened my eyes to what might be out there. Then the hype about Tome of Horrors came out and I took the risk to buy it. I was impressed that it was everything that everyone said it was and more.

Now, I have to figure out how to split my allowance between Paizo and Frog God Games products.

I was very impressed with the short story that I got from Jon Brazer Enterprises, so now I'm watching them for more fiction in the future AND I'll start taking a look at their other content.

Since I'm a DM and a player, I'll be introducing the third party content over the course of our game. The offer to give the GM a copy of any resource a player buys is VERY generous. However, Third party stuff is generally so AFFORDABLE that I would be doing that for my DM out of my own pocket and hope that my players will do the same for me (none have approached me with 3PP yet).


Urizen wrote:
Doesn't Rite Publishing's Pathways somewhat offer that niche?

Yes, but that is why I wanted someone out side of directly dealing with 3PP. If an single or even group of 3PP did it it might bee seen as advertising. But you get an outside party with credibility it just makes it just more "official". What people might want to think about doing is give it some type of Polyhedron magazine set up or even Games Workshop Citadel Journal set up; done by company people as freelance work with no direct official relationship with Paizo.

Basically have the guys over at Wayfinder to do a special issue that comes out for Gen Con or PaizoCon that is just reviews of 3PP products. The could use kickstarter to raise money to do and pay for it. Just some thoughts here.


Cheapy wrote:
SKR wrote the foreword to this book.

And Erik Mona hisself wrote the forward to this book.

Heck, I have less rules problems with SGG material than I do Paizo's stuff.


Liz Courts wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread but I have an idea. Since Paizo does support 3PP publishers better than I saw from another company, why not tale it one step further? Find an original 3PP and do a supporting PDF for it, just like they do for Paizo. To make sure it doesn't affect PFS, just state that it isn't legit for PFS.
If you're asking that Paizo put together something for a 3PP and release it, this simply isn't something that we have room in our product schedule for. We're full up on our own products (and then some)!

That is what I was suggesting and I didn't take into account that you all have your own products to work on. LMP's suggestion is a good one. That or don't produce the one product I wasn't going to buy so you can make one that I will. It's all about me.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I spend 30-50/month average, with TOHC and slumbering tsar (and rappan athuk, when I can get it)being outliers. I like print/pdf bundles a lot, which nudges the amount up a bit when I buy.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The reality is in the modern era of rpg gaming there is a far more blury line between first and 3rd party nowadays. Many 3rd party publisher developers have done first party work. Paizo's openess with their content, and their use of freelancers from the community means there is overall a very similar level of quality between many 3rd party publishers and paizo's own work.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hmmm I just had a thought. Its kind of a consequence of the modern pdf business model. There are many times talking to gamers on message boards or in gaming stores, that I find something a player is trying to acheive would be a perfect fit for one or more 3pp products. And ofcourse some people jump all over it, while others are skeptical. Normally, particularly if I knew the person I would gladly spend the small amount of money many 3rd party products cost to get them a copy and let them have a look for themselves.

But in this era of pdfs, any pdf I buy has my name/email address attached to it. I cant actually (to my knowledge) buy a digital product FOR someone else. Even if I bought a second copy it would still legally be attached to me, not someone else. I wonder if there is some way we can work around this? I would love some ability to purchase a 3pp pdf for someone else to give them a taste. After all the more people using it, the more I get to use it myself in my games and in others.


Paizo does have the ability to Gift things.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:
Paizo does have the ability to Gift things.

I know i can buy gift certificates, but can i buy actual products as gifts for another user on here?


Yep!


Kolokotroni wrote:
But in this era of pdfs, any pdf I buy has my name/email address attached to it. I cant actually (to my knowledge) buy a digital product FOR someone else. Even if I bought a second copy it would still legally be attached to me, not someone else. I wonder if there is some way we can work around this? I would love some ability to purchase a 3pp pdf for someone else to give them a taste. After all the more people using it, the more I get to use it myself in my games and in others.

Actually on RPGNow.com, I "think" you can buy a PDF, gift it to someone and have it sent to them. I an not a 100% positive on this, but I would check into it if I were you.

Grand Lodge

LMPjr007 wrote:
On the people that do purchase 3PP product, how much to you think you spend in a month on 3PP products?

$44.33 in December, not counting Black Monastery or gift items.


I buy a small amount of 3PP material ($15-20ish a month), but I've only ever used the Swashbuckler class from Adamant Entertainment's Tome of Secrets and a single feat from Rite Publishing's Feats 101 since Pathfinder came out.

The reason for this is simply that none of my players have ever asked if they can use something from a 3PP source.

I'm the really only one that buys (and usually reads) anything for the my game to begin with. Compound that with the fact that vast majority of 3PP material I buy is on PDF, my players don't physically see a stack of books and it's out of sight out of mind.

(Tangentially since I'm now using Hero Labs and D20Pro to run my Pathfinder games, I need to enter any 3PP material in by hand. While I'm more then willing to do that if one of my players asked for something, I don't have the time to put the info in there myself so I'm not actively pushing my players to look though my 3PP stuff.)


While I would LOVE for Paizo to produce a yearly "best of" book..I don't see why the 3rd party folks can't do it themselves, or in addition. Rather like the Ennies, something to honor the best of the year, and promote working together. Split the costs as evenly between every one that is in the book..or do it as a kickstarter.


It's a matter of the fact that if Paizo released it themselves, it'd give MASSIVE credibility to 3PP. I'm not opposed to a similar effort by 3PP, but it wouldn't have the same effect as a Paizo effort.


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Paizo already gives credibility to 3PP's by posting about them in the weekly blog notices.


It's amazing, many of the 3PP are the same professionals who freelance for Pathfinder...

Perhaps others like their stuff because it's based upon their specific campaign world. S&S had some very cool ideas in their line of 3E books, just not everything was balanced...

Monte Cook's work from 3.5's experimental and eldritch lines have inspired a lot of PRPG....

I get the 3PP stuff so I can data mine it for monsters and NPCs, I love other monster books, so do others or Complete Tome of Horrors wouldn't be selling so well.

Some stuff isn't as awesome, but with the PDF revolution you don't need t spend $15 to buy it anymore...

Was there a glut of products released for 3.0, by the gods yes, and those products ran from complete crap to amazing. There were just so many of them, it was insane.

Scarab Sages

Hmm, that's interesting because in the 3.5 game I play in nobody's ever even asked about 3PP. Same for the Pathfinder game I run. Of course with Pathfinder I have the APG and the two Ultimate books for my players so there's already quite a lot of variety available. I'm really not sure why nobody asks to add anything 3PP because I know they buy some (I know I do). As a DM I'm open to using additional material. I think I'd only turn it down if it clashed with my campaign world in a major way or if it seemed noticeably overpowered/unbalanced. Otherwise, sure, why not?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
meatrace wrote:
LMPjr007 wrote:
Liz Courts wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread but I have an idea. Since Paizo does support 3PP publishers better than I saw from another company, why not tale it one step further? Find an original 3PP and do a supporting PDF for it, just like they do for Paizo. To make sure it doesn't affect PFS, just state that it isn't legit for PFS.
If you're asking that Paizo put together something for a 3PP and release it, this simply isn't something that we have room in our product schedule for. We're full up on our own products (and then some)!
What might be best is something like this, Monte Cook Presents: The Year's Best d20 but done by one of the Paizo staff or more respected community reviewers. You need someone who is legitimately respected by a large number of the Paizo fan base to do something like this which would only add credibility to 3PP.
That's actually a pretty cool idea IMO. Even if it doesn't fit into Paizo's release schedule now, it would be something to work on in the future.

I on the other hand, don't see the point of such a product. They'd have to spend time negotiating rights, put staff time to produce a product of questionable marketability and none of the content would actually be new... after all it's all been published before in items that are still selling. Quite frankly, I'd much prefer that Paizo's FINITE AMOUNT OF staff time be spent publishing NEW product rather than repackaging someone elses's.


one word weapons special material "ICE"

The Exchange

3PP has always been more a matter of finding the right mix. Just one or two products to help flavor a game...perfect. Too many? Spoils the pot.


Lobolusk wrote:

one word weapons special material "ICE"

Huh, that's pretty cool.


Cheapy wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:

one word weapons special material "ICE"

Huh, that's pretty cool.

by cool you mean absolutely worthless?.........and ineffective i can make a new special material called paper you take paper and wrap it is masking tape to make it "sharp" it ids completely ineffective against all armor and you have to make a fort check dc30 every time you try to attack anything.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Card Game, Rulebook Subscriber

Ice is certainly a niche material, and won't show up in most sessions, but I could certainly think of any number of ways to use it in adventures. So its nice to have rules for it when it shows up. I wouldn't call it worthless. Far from it.


Lobolusk wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:

one word weapons special material "ICE"

Huh, that's pretty cool.
by cool you mean absolutely worthless?.........and ineffective i can make a new special material called paper you take paper and wrap it is masking tape to make it "sharp" it ids completely ineffective against all armor and you have to make a fort check dc30 every time you try to attack anything.

No, it provides rules for something that's a fairly common archetype in winter / northlands campaigns. That's pretty cool.

What do you think of this material?


Lobolusk wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:

one word weapons special material "ICE"

Huh, that's pretty cool.
by cool you mean absolutely worthless?.........and ineffective i can make a new special material called paper you take paper and wrap it is masking tape to make it "sharp" it ids completely ineffective against all armor and you have to make a fort check dc30 every time you try to attack anything.

By that logic we shouldn't have rules for bone, either.

Shadow Lodge

How can I wield the remains of my enemies in battle without them?!


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I wonder. Do we have rules for wielding remains with the flesh on somewhere? I want to get all Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines up in here.

Just because a rule is suboptimal to other rules doesn't meant the rule shouldn't exist.


TOZ wrote:
How can I wield the remains of my enemies in battle without them?!

I use my living enemies in battle. Check out my +3 Thundering Halfling of Mighty Cleaving.


Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:

I wonder. Do we have rules for wielding remains with the flesh on somewhere? I want to get all Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines up in here.

Just because a rule is suboptimal to other rules doesn't meant the rule shouldn't exist.

Given what part of the anatomy of remains you've dealt with before, I certainly hope not.


Cheapy wrote:
I use my living enemies in battle. Check out my +3 Thundering Halfling of Mighty Cleaving.

Only thing a halfling is good for!

Seriously, from what I've read here there seems to be a dividing line between those groups who are fairly set against anything not Paizo, or even Core, and then there are those who use a little or a lot of 3PP. Personally I allow anything in my campaigns, but I vet it first. As GM I can tweak anything to make it work mechanically or tweak it for flavor or theme.
Why any GM would say "no" to a player requesting to play/use something I don't understand UNLESS it's due to flavour/theme clashes. Any mechanics can be stripped back or out completely. It seems like such GMs are fearful of "untested" or "unsanctioned" material. Remember, Paizo is STILL issuing errata for the Core. Let the player play what he/she likes - you as the GM are the final arbiter on how it works in game. And don't be afraid to rule your way and stick to it!
I don't mean to belabor this, but really, get a grip kids! I really don't understand the inability of folk to understand the rules are merely guidelines and the GM has THE FINAL SAY that does not brook argument. Nuff said! (Except players wishing to play halflings, gnomes or dwarves. Such characters should always be left at the door or used as lamp tables, placemats and target practice. Even though they are Core. ;p )


TOZ wrote:
How can I wield the remains of my enemies in battle without them?!

Fight iron golems.


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Ok, I haven't read everything thats been said in this thread, but I do have a thought or two to share about a "Year's best..." from 3PPs.

1) We, the 3PPs out there, should defintely make this ourselves, with the help from the customers. A collaborative effort, where the customers help us decide what the "Year's best" actually is. Of course, a group of editors would make the final decision.

I (Headless Hydra Games) for one, would love to offer my art director services to such a project, perhaps even to do the layout of the final book.

2) This could be a way to give something back. So instead of splitting up the loot between us, we should donate the loot to someone who really needs it. It would/should be enough for the 3PPs to get a bit of publicity.

I offered my art director services, and I would (of course) pay for the illustrations of my own pocket.

If 5-10 3PPs stuck their heads together, this could easily be done. So if anyone is interested, feel free to contact the Hydra! (storyguide.axel@gmail.com).

- Axel


i was sarcastic and grumpy last night now i have my coffee in my veins i would love to try 3rd party stuff but i just remember it being super overpowered in 3.5 and I am afraid to try 3rd party stuff plus i look at it on psrd20.com and can't see anything that interests me honestly if i bring it before amy dm i feel like i will be trying to argue a case or slip something buy him....unless they had a 3rd party masked wrestler book of course. I would just feel weird trying to bring it to him


Lobolusk wrote:
i was sarcastic and grumpy last night now i have my coffee in my veins i would love to try 3rd party stuff but i just remember it being super overpowered in 3.5 and I am afraid to try 3rd party stuff plus i look at it on psrd20.com and can't see anything that interests me honestly if i bring it before amy dm i feel like i will be trying to argue a case or slip something buy him....unless they had a 3rd party masked wrestler book of course. I would just feel weird trying to bring it to him

Well Lobolusk let me calm your fears about 3PP, send me your email address and I will send you a free copy of NeoExodus: A House Divided Campaign Setting. If it sucks, you never have to buy anything from LPJ Design again, but if you like it you promise to try out another product of our or another 3PP publisher? How is that for a deal?


Cheapy wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:

one word weapons special material "ICE"

Huh, that's pretty cool.

Pun aside, I'm glad you think so. That was I believe the work of 4WFG's Rob Thomson, and was designed for use by an antagonistic race that dwelt on frozen plains and in ice caves, where other materials would be extremely difficult to come by. It would also be natural for use on the planes, in the cold reaches where the air and water planes intersect.


LMPjr007 wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:
i was sarcastic and grumpy last night now i have my coffee in my veins i would love to try 3rd party stuff but i just remember it being super overpowered in 3.5 and I am afraid to try 3rd party stuff plus i look at it on psrd20.com and can't see anything that interests me honestly if i bring it before amy dm i feel like i will be trying to argue a case or slip something buy him....unless they had a 3rd party masked wrestler book of course. I would just feel weird trying to bring it to him
Well Lobolusk let me calm your fears about 3PP, send me your email address and I will send you a free copy of NeoExodus: A House Divided Campaign Setting. If it sucks, you never have to buy anything from LPJ Design again, but if you like it you promise to try out another product of our or another 3PP publisher? How is that for a deal?

somebody sent me the adventures handbook genus guide 1 so far the feats in it are amazing!

i will paroose more of it later

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