How to build a fighter controller / defender / tank

[Erikkerik]

Ok so I want to build a fighter that focuses not primarily on doing the damage but on 1)Controlling the battlefield, 2) defending and helping his friends.
I'm pretty determined on making it a fighter, not a bard or palading etc., and I would like to play a dwarf (realize it's not optimized).

So what options do I have?

The 3 archetypes I'm looking at is the Phalanx soldier, polearm master and tactician.

For weapons I'm pretty bent on polearms, allowing for reach, braces and trips.

I'm also considering the shield, but looking for ways that I can utilize it to protect my friends. I seem to remember a feat that let you give your shileds ac bonus to an adjacent ally, but I can't seem to find it. Does it exist or is there any other ways I can use a shield or my abilites to protect my friends? Are they effecient?

Feats: I'm thinking of combat expertise, improved and greater trip, maybe the grapple feats, bull rush maybe, maybe more of the manouvers, spring attack maybe.

Now one problem the build I'm considering requires a lot of abilities: int has to be 13, dex should be high, str have to be high ofc, and we will most likely use the 15 point buy, so I realize it probably will be to difficult to pull together with a dwarf, but that's not to important cause I have a good concept for a human as well.

So anyone can help me utilize the potential in the builds I am considering, or even better, have other ideas on how I can fulfill my goals (possibly one that is better suited for a dwarf)?

[Bart Vervaet]

If you can get a decent DEX then combat reflexes combined with combat patrol and a reach weapon is a very nice way of making sure no-one gets past you to attack your squishy caster friends.

[Waffle_Neutral]

The feat you are looking for is Saving Shield in the APG. Gives a +2 shield bonus to adjacent allies. It's a good feat if you've got a few two-handed bruisers or animal companions in your party. The only thing I'd be a little worried about is that you're going to want to help flank, which will make it harder to take advantage of this feat because you won't be adjacent. Unless you pick the polearm master.

Might want to check out the Combat Patrol feat in the APG. Increases you threatened zone by 5 feat and lets you move to intercept. Would work good with polearm master since it gets bonus to hit with opportunity attacks.

For this build, you probably can't get combat expertise or other maneuvers, because you'll want a high dex for more opportunity attacks; which you will get a few of with your large threatened area.

I'd do before racials.
S 16
D 14
C 10
I 10
W 10
Ch 8

[SunsetPsychosis]

The Phalanx Fighter archetype would allow you to use a polearm one-handed, while gaining bonuses with shields. It's also very dwarfy, and could be good lead in to Stalwart Defender (which is just a remake of the old Dwarven Defender anyways).

[Bruno Kristensen]

Seconding Combat Patrol. It is really good for controlling the battlefield.

[Thalin]

I'm going to throw a vote against Combat Patrol. while it does make moving cause damage in a certain area, it gives up your attack. Just attacking with lunge usually does what it does, without losing the round's attacks.

A dwarf is actually quite good in a sense; his amazing saves shore up the fighter's biggest weakness (spells). Here's how I would build (15 point buy)

Polearm Master

Str: 16
Int: 13
Wis: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Chr: 5
Traits: +1 Perception and class skill, Heirloom Weapon (horsechopper, choosing +2 to trip)
Feats:
1 - Combat Reflexes, Dodge
2 - Mobility
3 - Combat Expertise
4 - Spring Attack, switch out CR for Whirlwind Attack
5 - Improved Trip
6 - Greater Improved Trip
7 - Lunge
8 - Combat Reflexes

So, by 8 you can attack everyone within 15 feet and attempt to trip (+8 BAB +2 Heirloom Weapon +2 weapon (assumed) +1 Polearm Master +5 Str (+2 stat item) +4 feats) = +22 CMB, and three times take AOOs when they go down (at +2 to hit) for d10 + 10 damage. And all the guys tripped on the ground get AOOed by friends. At 9 with power attack and another +1 to hit and damage you're dealing d10 +20 damage to each of them. At 10 I'd take cleric 1 (Growth and Fur domains) and you can swift action grow 6 times / day and do it within 25 feat for 2d8 + 22 damage (at +27 CMB). Not too shabby, no? And this guy is good right out of the box; even at low levels d10 + 4 with an AOO on any enemies that close in on you (twice per round) and great saves.

[Alwaysafk]

Copy/Paste/Edit!
Edit: Change Wis: 13 to 11
Phalanx Soldier/Polearm Master

Str: 16
Int: 13
Wis: 11 +1 at 4
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Chr: 5
Traits: +1 Perception and class skill, Heirloom Weapon (hooked lance, choosing +2 to trip)
Feats:
1 - Combat Reflexes, Dodge
2 - Mobility
3 - Combat Expertise
4 - Combat Patrol
5 - Improved Trip
6 - Greater Improved Trip
7 - Lunge
8 - Body Guard
9 - In Harm's Way

Use a Hooked Lance over Horse Chopper. Same benefits, but a x4 crit over a x3.

Idea is to set up a combat patrol area around your buddies or seal off a passage way. Get something to increase your DEX for AoO and dare anyone to get past you. Maybe Improved Reposition/Quick Reposition to forcefully peal someone off of your buddies then trip them. Weapon bonuses apply because of the trip property.

I think the Phalanx Soldier is way more Dwarfy, but Polearm Master seems more optimized.

Does the capstone Phalanx Soldier Evasion ability work if the Fighter has heavy/medium armor on?

[Thalin]

It's really hard to justify not taking Polearm master for any character relying on combat patrol / reflexes / trip. The replacement for armor expertise gives you +1 on all AOO attacks, +1 extra every 4 levels. Threatening @ 5 feet away is a nice addition too.

With no feats invested in crit I would not give up the 1 extra damage for an extra +1x damage 5% of the time, though around level 10 it would probably catch up / pass, but I play more for the early game. This is especially because, if enlarged (and you will beg for enlarge, if not eventually grabbing the growth domain) it's 2d8 VS 2d6 (+2 damage).

Also, your math is off; that's a 17-point buy. It's hard to get that Dex to 14.... Easiest way would be drop Wis to a 11, but I like perception and high will saves; but justifiable if that is your goal.

[Erikkerik]

Appreciating the comments so far. I think I have a good enough graps on the options I have on building a reach specialt and halberdier master now, but the more I think of this I remember the pain my group usually have in utilising the reach rules as we don't use a battle grid, but just visualize.

So how about the other builds? How would you build say a dwarf as either as a nonreach phalanx soldier (halberd and shield), maybe not so focused on controlling areas of the battlefied, but maybe more powerfull, singel targets, and helping out and defending his friends?

Or what about a tactician? Is he good enough at what he does for his drawbacks to be worth it (I've never seen a cavalier play nor a teamwork feet used)? I'd still wanna build him to be able to do some control on the battlefield, be a pain in the ass to his enemies and defending his friends (tripping etc.).

I really like the feal of the saving shield feet, but is this the end of what you can do with a shield to protect your friends? I feel like there's missing a chain of feets here. Gang up could also be used so we didnt have to flank (if we have 3 melee ofc.)
I also like the feal of feets like butterfly sting, but it's maybe crap?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm quite clueless on fighters, usually playjng casters, and I'm a bi overwhelmed by all the options and the guides to fighters I've read hasn't covered such builds.

[Thalin]

Well for starters, Halberd is a reach weapon. In fact, the whole Phalanx Fighter "shtick" is the unique ability to use a reach weapon and a shield at the same time.

For single-foe fighting straight damage is usually the only way a fighter can fight; unless you make the trip builds above. Single creatures tend to be large, strong, and often 4-legged; making trip much more difficult (but not impossible; my whirlwind fighter has tripped a large dragon before... The CMB on a trip build can be pretty silly).

If you want a trip-and-board master ignoring reach, you're much better off building a 2-weapon warrior, as such:

Two-weapon fighter
Str: 16
Int: 13
Wis: 9
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Chr: 5

Heiloom weapon is a flail

1: Two weapon fighting, improved shield bash
2: Combat Expertise
3: Improved Trip
4: Double Slice
5: WF: Flail
6: Greater Improved Trip
7: Greater two-weapon fighting
8: Shield Slam
9: Improved Bull Rush
10: Greater improved Bull Rush

All right, so let's see what this guy does.

Basically, he's a dwarf with a shield, stock full of AC. He moves up to a guy, trips him down, keeps him locked up, hitting him mercilessly with shield and flail. Later every time the shield hits, he actually gets to move the guy away from everyone (thanks to shield slam). So now the guy is on the floor, isolated away from everyone (or just with the dwarf if you want to follow up the shield slam). Total enemy lockdown with the shield and flail, ignoring the annoyances of reach. You are also solid damage output and redic AC, even as I had to sacrifice saves a little to get the Dex up.

[Dragonsong]

I will say that going dwarf may be a more optimal option for this type of fighter: save bonuses or take SR instead(APG) there is a dwarf feat for another +2 to the save bonuses you already get if you don't go with SR option. No one wants to be a will save away for turning your shtick on your teammates. You don't loose much if anything from a fighter archetype that looses armor training as you aren't hindered movement-wise by load or heavy armors.

[Erikkerik]

Thalin wrote:

Well for starters, Halberd is a reach weapon. In fact, the whole Phalanx Fighter "shtick" is the unique ability to use a reach weapon and a shield at the same time.

For single-foe fighting straight damage is usually the only way a fighter can fight; unless you make the trip builds above. Single creatures tend to be large, strong, and often 4-legged; making trip much more difficult (but not impossible; my whirlwind fighter has tripped a large dragon before... The CMB on a trip build can be pretty silly).

If you want a trip-and-board master ignoring reach, you're much better off building a 2-weapon warrior, as such:

Two-weapon fighter
Str: 16
Int: 13
Wis: 9
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Chr: 5

Heiloom weapon is a flail

1: Two weapon fighting, improved shield bash
2: Combat Expertise
3: Improved Trip
4: Double Slice
5: WF: Flail
6: Greater Improved Trip
7: Greater two-weapon fighting
8: Shield Slam
9: Improved Bull Rush
10: Greater improved Bull Rush

All right, so let's see what this guy does.

Basically, he's a dwarf with a shield, stock full of AC. He moves up to a guy, trips him down, keeps him locked up, hitting him mercilessly with shield and flail. Later every time the shield hits, he actually gets to move the guy away from everyone (thanks to shield slam). So now the guy is on the floor, isolated away from everyone (or just with the dwarf if you want to follow up the shield slam). Total enemy lockdown with the shield and flail, ignoring the annoyances of reach. You are also solid damage output and redic AC, even as I had to sacrifice saves a little to get the Dex up.

Think I really like this build, except I might wanna get improved trip at lvl 1 just because I like it. Any comments on the tactician though? I really like the idea of a fighter teaching his allies how to fight well for a concept. Two-weapon fighter seems strong and also fun though :)

[Thalin]

Tactician can work, but only if you first take 3 levels of Inquisitor (solo tactics is the key to make those feats powerful when you aren't using your 1/day ability). But really if you want to do that A) you can't be a dwarf very well (Tactician is CHA based) and B) The cavalier simply does it better. It's pretty weak as a fighter archetype. I do like Fighters with 3 level inquisitor splashes for growth domain and solo tactics, but that is an entirely different build (more bashy two-hander type).

[EWHM]

Get enlarge and lunge. You also might want to get cleave/great cleave.

Here's where it gets sticky. To control the monsters and NPCs, what you really need to know is how to control your gamemaster. Knowing him and his style is the key. For instance:
1. How much of an effort at getting around you does he make? If it isn't much of an effort---ie if his monsters generally go after what they can reach immediately, you can emphasize armor and defense heavily. Enlarge will help, since you take up and threaten more space.
2. How averse is he to eating an attack of opportunity? If he's very AoO-shy, you'll probably not need improved/greater trip and can get by with just combat reflexes (even AoO-shy GMs will usually rush by you blithely once your AoO are exhausted
3. How much does the answers to 1. and 2. change as your offensive output increases? Some GMs will go around you with extreme prejudice if your DPR is pretty low relative to your defense. For instance, if I'm GM'ing and you're fighting good quality foes of greater than normal intelligence (the US army would fit into this category), they'll attack you in order of perceived danger divided by difficulty to disable insofar as they're able, so to effectively tank you need significant offense and to be annoyingly difficult to get around. Otherwise they'll try to just send a minion to keep you busy while they smite your squishy buddies. But most GMs in my experience aren't like that. Know your GM.

[CASEY BENNETT]

Dwarf is good, but you will have to tank your CHA to 5 if you really want the 15 PB to work for you. I believe there are a couple good spreads above.

I suggest taking this trait to make up for any lack in Wisdom:

Stubborn:

Dwarves are renowned for being stubborn. Dwarves with this racial trait receive a +2 racial bonus on Will saves to resist spells and spell-like abilities of the enchantment (charm) and enchantment (compulsion) schools. In addition, if they fail such a save, they receive another save 1 round later to prematurely end the effect (assuming it has a duration greater than 1 round). This second save is made at the same DC as the first. If the dwarf has a similar ability from another source (such as a rogue’s slippery mind), he can only use one of these abilities per round, but can try one on the second round if the first reroll ability fails). This racial trait replaces the hardy racial trait. Source: Advanced Player's Guide.

Also, consider taking 2 levels of Maneuver Master Monk from UC. It will help you get the CM feats you want, gives you a free way to threaten adjacent while using a reach weapon (Unarmed Strikes)and Flurry of Maneuvers is not restricted by armor. It is only gravy, seriously.

[Nipin]

Build through 12 levels of human fighter

STATS

STR 16
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 7
WIS 14
CHA 7

Use leveling stat bumps in STR.

Traits
Indomitable Faith: +1 will
Deft Dodger: +1 Reflex

FEATS

1 - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus(Flail)
2 - Combat Reflexes
3 - Body Guard
4 - Power Attack
5 - Improved Overrun
6 - Charge Through
7 - Greater Trip
8 - Greater Weapon Focus(Flail)
9 - Improved Bull Rush
10 - Dodge
11 - Mobility
12 - Combat Patrol

Primary Weapon Training Group is Flails.

Trip, Charge Through, Overrun, and Combat Patrol for control.
Combat Expertise and Body Guard for defensive boost(yourself and your allies respectively).
Solid to hit due to weapon training and weapon focuses which also add to your trip attempts with your Flail.
Solid damage from high STR, Power Attack, and Weapon Training.
Decent saves from base stats, traits, belt of STR/DEX, and investing in a cloak of resist. Could probably stand to invest in a headband of Wisdom as well and/or drop one feat to pick up Iron Will.

[Callarek]

If it is legal for your campaign, you might want to consider the Lore Warden archetype for Fighter from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide. Among other things, it gets Combat Expertise for free at second level. It also gets more skill points, and more class skills, which can help for those skill-based encounters that Fighters tend to have problems with.

[Venatio]

Thalin wrote:

Well for starters, Halberd is a reach weapon. In fact, the whole Phalanx Fighter "shtick" is the unique ability to use a reach weapon and a shield at the same time.

Something of an Epic Fail, Halberd is not a reach weapon.

In fact, for the Phalanx Fighter doing trips, its probably the best weapon bar none, as it also has the brace property, slashing and piercing, and counts as a polearm you can use in one hand.

For a Human Phalanx Fighter, get Heart of the Streets for the defense bonus from being next to allies. Your job and versatility will change as you progress in level, but my build has you mauling people with combat maneuvers and using Vital Strike to couple with your move action defense from level 9 and up.

Numbered at level gained, Where <> means to switch at following indicated level.

1. Combat Expertise
1. Dodge <>Power Attack (lv 8)
1. Improved Trip
2. Mobility<>Combat Reflexes (lv4)
3. Shield Focus
4. Shield Specialization: Tower
5. Body Guard
6. Greater Trip
7. In Harm’s Way
8. Improved Bull Rush
9. Vital Strike
10. Greater Bull Rush <>Improved Overrun (lv12)
11. Improved Vital Strike
12. Charge through
13. Greater Overrun
14. Greater Bull Rush
15. Lightning Reflexes
16. Greater Vital Strike
17. Stunning Assault
18. Second Chance
19. Improved Lightning Reflexes
20. Improved Second Chance

Once you get to level 4, stick with the tower shield, as you will get a +5 to your CMD from it.

[Mike Schneider]

Erikkerik wrote:

Ok so I want to build a fighter that focuses not primarily on doing the damage but on 1)Controlling the battlefield, 2) defending and helping his friends.

I'm pretty determined on making it a fighter, not a bard or palading etc., and I would like to play a dwarf (realize it's not optimized).

The 3 archetypes I'm looking at is the Phalanx soldier, polearm master and tactician.

For weapons I'm pretty bent on polearms, allowing for reach, braces and trips.

Heeheeheehee...

Dwarf 15pt-buy
STR:14
DEX:16
CON+14
INT:12
WIS+12
CHA-05

01 barb1 Extra Rage (12r/day)
02 figh1 [unarmed][proficiency:monk+exotic weapons], IUS, Dragon Style
03 figh2 [Harsh Training], Raging Vitality, Two Weapon Fighting
04 barb2 [uncanny dodge], Reckless Abandon, (14r/day)
05 figh3 [Tough Guy], Steel Soul
06 figh4 Lunge
07 figh5 [weapon training:monk+exotic weapons], Combat Reflexes
08 figh6 Stand Still
09 (more barb or fighter), Power Attack

Level play-by-play:
1: STR/DEX/CON 18/16/18 while raging as a 15pt...what's not to love?
2: ...you gain proficiency in two-dozen exotic weapons, some reach which don't suffer polearm drawbacks.
3: ...can't insta-die if dropped neg; TWF by making two-hander attack followed by Dragon Style kick.
4: ...can't be surprised, +1 to any kind of attack you make while raging.
5: ...virtually immune to save-forcing magic at this point
6: ...reach now 15'
7: ...buy Gloves of Dueling.
8: ...nothing can get past you.

Weapons: monk exotics out of Ultimate Combat, in particular Kusarigama and Kyoketsu shoge (and, of course, Shuriken) -- you have fighter Weapon Training in all of them (amplified by Gloves of Dueling).

[Coonsan]

For the record, a Halberd is NOT a reach weapon, according to the Core Rulebook.