I'm pretty sure "throw" is referring to the throw of the dice.
But how come we don't call it an "attack throw" or a "skill throw"?
Anyone know the nerdly etymology of this game term?
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I'm pretty sure "throw" is referring to the throw of the dice.
But how come we don't call it an "attack throw" or a "skill throw"?
Anyone know the nerdly entomology of this game term?
Probably because you're neither attacking nor using a skill. The "saving" part of "saving throw" probably (though I'm just speculating) refers to your attempt to save your sorry behind from whatever nastiness is being sent your way.
There's lightning headed for your face. Throw the dice to see if you can save yourself from electrocution - make a saving throw.
I'm pretty sure "throw" is referring to the throw of the dice.
But how come we don't call it an "attack throw" or a "skill throw"?
Anyone know the nerdly entomology of this game term?
Probably because you're neither attacking nor using a skill. The "saving" part of "saving throw" probably (though I'm just speculating) refers to your attempt to save your sorry behind from whatever nastiness is being sent your way.
There's lightning headed for your face. Throw the dice to see if you can save yourself from electrocution - make a saving throw.
(S)he means why don't we call attack rolls and skill checks "throws"?
(S)he means why don't we call attack rolls and skill checks "throws"?I'm pretty sure "throw" is referring to the throw of the dice.
But how come we don't call it an "attack throw" or a "skill throw"?
Anyone know the nerdly entomology of this game term?
Probably because you're neither attacking nor using a skill. The "saving" part of "saving throw" probably (though I'm just speculating) refers to your attempt to save your sorry behind from whatever nastiness is being sent your way.
There's lightning headed for your face. Throw the dice to see if you can save yourself from electrocution - make a saving throw.
Kinda. More specifically, why isn't it a "Saving Roll" instead?
Gygax called it a saving throw in the first place (but an attack roll).
^this
It was called that in 1st edition. No other reason then, that's what the original creator called it.
Maybe it's just because I'm so used to the term, but "Saving Throw" sounds better to me than "Saving Roll". Rolls off the tongue better, so to speak. 8^)
I think that's most likely just habbit, because we're used to that term and not Saving Roll.
It's kind of the same if you go and imagine your first name with the lastname of a friend, it also sounds really weird, though I bet people that are actually named that wouldn't agree :)Since all three have different names, attack roll, skill check and saving throw, that was maybe intentional, so it's harder to confuse them or so?
Perhaps because a missed attack roll is usually harmless, but a missed saving throw makes you want to throw the die off a cliff. :-)
Anyone know the nerdly entomology of this game term?
1} Entomology is the study of bugs. Etymology is the study of word history.
2} No, I don't know. But I have a theory. I'd suspect it came about because of the word "throw" being common to what saves frequently allow you to do. Fort? You "throw off" the icky creepy feeling of the poison coursing through your veins. Reflex? You throw your hands out and catch the ledge or you throw your body out of the way of the fireball or falling rocks. Will? You throw off the mind-control coming from the evil bad guy.What I'm saying is that I suspect but can't prove that "throw" likely didn't start entirely meaning "roll". The two probably got conflated at some point as some people heard about "saving throws" (what the character does) and assumed that was also what the player does. Today the dice action is the saving throw, but it's possible 35 years ago it was an in-character description and the dice roll was what you did to allow the in-character action.
Anyone know the nerdly entomology of this game term?1} Entomology is the study of bugs. Etymology is the study of word history.
lol, go spell check! Funny how a simple change of a vowel can make such a difference.
2} No, I don't know. But I have a theory. I'd suspect it came about because of the word "throw" being common to what saves frequently allow you to do. Fort? You "throw off" the icky creepy feeling of the poison coursing through your veins. Reflex? You throw your hands out and catch the ledge or you throw your body out of the way of the fireball or falling rocks. Will? You throw off the mind-control coming from the evil bad guy.
What I'm saying is that I suspect but can't prove that "throw" likely didn't start entirely meaning "roll". The two probably got conflated at some point as some people heard about "saving throws" (what the character does) and assumed that was also what the player does. Today the dice action is the saving throw, but it's possible 35 years ago it was an in-character description and the dice roll was what you did to allow the in-character action.
So how does the character in-game make a saving throw?
Or how do I do it in real life?
I guess if I drank some poison, and threw it all up, that's kind of a saving throw. I resisted the poison right?
Anyone know the nerdly entomology of this game term?1} Entomology is the study of bugs. Etymology is the study of word history.
2} No, I don't know. But I have a theory. I'd suspect it came about because of the word "throw" being common to what saves frequently allow you to do. Fort? You "throw off" the icky creepy feeling of the poison coursing through your veins. Reflex? You throw your hands out and catch the ledge or you throw your body out of the way of the fireball or falling rocks. Will? You throw off the mind-control coming from the evil bad guy.What I'm saying is that I suspect but can't prove that "throw" likely didn't start entirely meaning "roll". The two probably got conflated at some point as some people heard about "saving throws" (what the character does) and assumed that was also what the player does. Today the dice action is the saving throw, but it's possible 35 years ago it was an in-character description and the dice roll was what you did to allow the in-character action.
Fort, Ref and Will were not the names of the original Saving Throws. Those were consolidations of the original list of saving throws, and showed up beginning in 3.x.
Saving Throws were split over several types, depending on the kind of magic coming at you, or whether it was from a wand, etc. None of them had to do with "throwing your arms out," or anything like that.
Likely, it does refer to throwing the dice. Remember, Gygax and Arneson were old-school, hardline wargamers going back decades before they worked D&D out. They threw a lot of dice around in that time, and carried a lot of their wargamer vernacular over.
They also "rolled" a lot of dice, and both probably are the easiest explanations.
Likely, it does refer to throwing the dice.
I don't know much about dice and card terms in English, but 'throw' might be the proper term for 'rolling the dice'.
From Caesar's famous Alea iacta est (Latin for 'The die has been cast'), we can deduce that the concept of casting or throwing the dice (as opposed to rolling the dice) has been around for a while.
Why isn't it an attack throw? I've no idea. 'guess it didn't sound right.
btw, in French, both saves and attacks are jets (from 'jetter'; French for 'throwing')
'findel
IIRC, it is indeed an old bit of wargaming slang.
The original Saving Throws were classified as things like:
Save vs. Spell
Save vs. Breath Weapon
Save vs. Petrification or Polymorph
Save vs. Rod, Staff or Wand
Save Vs. Paralyzation, Poison, or Death Magic
Yeah, I remember that. It was a pain.
I like how a zero in THACO was awesome too.
Origially it was just a Save - a "Save Vs. Breath" or a "Save vs. Poison", but that was back when D&D was in the three little books.
But weren't these collectively known as saving throws?
Origially it was just a Save - a "Save Vs. Breath" or a "Save vs. Poison", but that was back when D&D was in the three little books.But weren't these collectively known as saving throws?I could be wrong (I am one of those old guys, and we do self edit memories), but I recall just collectively calling them Saves. We'd jot our "saves" on one side of the character sheet. It wasn't until learning to play EPT (Empire of the Petal Thrown) that my gaming group (aprox. 1977 or 78?) started calling them Saving Throws, and even then it was mostly just "Saves". But I imagine other groups in other places were different.
I don't go back that far myself, so you may very well be right (in 78, my vocabulary was pretty much limited to 'mama' and 'dada')
Checking my copy of the 1st edition books, they are called saving throws.
The "Men & Magic" booklet clearly calls them "saving throws".
in my gaming group, the players 'roll a save' for the character to 'make a saving throw'. I have no idea why thats the terminology that we use.
Because it's easier to say. There's a whole science behind this kind of thing but that's what it boils down to. After an "ng" sound it's easier to transition to a "th" than an "r".
easy-peasy
I think saving throw was meant to be the target number you needed, making it a similar term to thac0 rather than the roll itself.
Making your saving throw would indicate a succesful save rather than the roll itself, frequently we just refered to it as making a 'roll to save'.
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Because Dave and Gary thought it sounded good one night when they were drunk.
Good to see at least one person realizes that Gygax was not the sole holy font from which all things D&D issued.
If you try to make sense of early D&D, you're liable to get a migraine.
-Kle.
The same can be said for d20-based games.
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Pure tradition. And because Gygax had such an impressive vocabulary that he was actually capable of using synonyms.
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I understand the entomology of the phrase, but it still bugs me.
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Now I feel really old - and yes, somewhere I even have some of my old characters from that time - on faded lined collage ruled notebook paper...
I remember collage lined paper. It was always normal paper again after the drugs wore off, though.
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I'm pretty sure "throw" is referring to the throw of the dice.
But how come we don't call it an "attack throw" or a "skill throw"?
Anyone know the nerdly etymology of this game term?
I suspect the "saving" part came down to the fact that in early versions of D&D, nearly all saves were SoD. You were saving against instant death poison, or a super long duration hold person, or enough damage to kill you outright (AoE damage used to be very strong). This was your one throw of the die to "save" your character.
Also, the 1e DMG described how different classes made saves differently - fighters just withstood things, rogues tried to get out of the way, magic-users had minor magical protections up, etc.
lol, go spell check! Funny how a simple change of a vowel can make such a difference.
Look at the holy wars that are fought over "effect" and "affect". Sometimes, things get in(s)ane! :D
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Look at the holy wars that are fought over "effect" and "affect". Sometimes, things get in(s)ane! :D
lol, go spell check! Funny how a simple change of a vowel can make such a difference.
Personally, I like how the spellchecks these days are specifically turning "definately" into "defiantly" instead of "definitely". Watching everyone run around, doing things in spite of... whatever... is great.
Nosig, you are right. The D&D books (the three paperbacks), had saves.
No, they had saving throws. I wasn't talking out of my ass when I said "Men & Magic" called them that, I was referencing an actual copy in front of me. I assume you failed to remember that the first volume of the three paperbacks was titled "Men & Magic"?
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But weren't these collectively known as saving throws?
I could be wrong (I am one of those old guys, and we do self edit memories), but I recall just collectively calling them Saves. We'd jot our "saves" on one side of the character sheet. It wasn't until learning to play EPT (Empire of the Petal Thrown) that my gaming group (aprox. 1977 or 78?) started calling them Saving Throws, and even then it was mostly just "Saves". But I imagine other groups in other places were different.
I have played a little 1e lately (my son believe it or not is a 1e purist) And the 1e DM screen calls it a Saving Throw Table.