We all like you, TCG, but as you say, you work for a bank. That might be putting you in a different mindset than it does those of us who support our families paycheck to paycheck in these very tough times, and are about to be skewered again by banks that are already bleeding billions out of people and are run by CEOs who are afraid they might have to sell one of their six mansions off, or maybe settle for four yachts instead of five.In rebuttal, I offer the bit at the bottom of the article:
But Senator Dick Durbin (D-Ill.), who introduced the swipe-fee cap in an amendment to the Dodd-Frank financial reform act, said...
To be clear, I work for a bank, but I don't like them. It's just a job so I can support myself paycheck to paycheck.
FYI: Adapting is continual. You adapted once now it's time to do so again. It's so easy to get around the $3 monthly charge if you so desire.
From personal experience I can say that a large percentage of people that deal with checking accounts have no clue how they work. They think it's magic.
For example I've had people;
get violently upset when asked for ID. "I've been banking here 20 years, bla bla bla" "Yes sir, well I've been working her for three hours."
try to make a deposit to another bank and get upset. In other words I'm at bank A and they have a deposit slip for bank B.
not understand why they can't cash a check from a different bank on the other side of the country against their account that's in the negative
people think that checks are just like money
try to pull more cash out of there account than is present expecting the overdraft to just kick in and cover it
try to cash a 3 year old check
deposit a check made out to two people into only one person's account without both parties present
Cash a check made out to two people when only one party is present
Cash a 4th party check. yes I said 4th party. Alvin wrote a check to Bernice, who signed it over to Calvin, who signed it over to Devonya. ... You have to be F'in kidding me.
Negotiate checks written in pencil
Negotiate checks written in crayon (I S**t you not)
Close accounts to which they are not signers.
etc etc etc.
It's not magic. It's a system.
1- Pull the signature card
2- That's just stupid. It's why I kept deposit slips by my window.3- I'd always get people to deposit the check and take the first hundred that cleared.
4- Depending on where it's from, it can be.
5- Depends on what kind of overdraft they're paying for. It's not like that anymore, but it did work like that at one time, at least according to my former boss.
6- That's just unfortunate. Call the person who wrote the check and get another one.
7- That's still a pisser. Caused a big problem when I first got married.
8- Ain't that still fraud?
9- We used to shred those.
10- That would make me laugh.
11- That would make my supervisor laugh.
Like any system it has weaknesses and holes. Some are easily exploited, others are ironclad.
From personal experience I can say that a large percentage of people that deal with checking accounts have no clue how they work. They think it's magic.
stuff:
For example I've had people;get violently upset when asked for ID. "I've been banking here 20 years, bla bla bla" "Yes sir, well I've been working her for three hours."
try to make a deposit to another bank and get upset. In other words I'm at bank A and they have a deposit slip for bank B.
not understand why they can't cash a check from a different bank on the other side of the country against their account that's in the negative
people think that checks are just like money
try to pull more cash out of there account than is present expecting the overdraft to just kick in and cover it
try to cash a 3 year old check
deposit a check made out to two people into only one person's account without both parties present
Cash a check made out to two people when only one party is present
Cash a 4th party check. yes I said 4th party. Alvin wrote a check to Bernice, who signed it over to Calvin, who signed it over to Devonya. ... You have to be F'in kidding me.
Negotiate checks written in pencil
Negotiate checks written in crayon (I S**t you not)
Close accounts to which they are not signers.
etc etc etc.
It's not magic. It's a system.
1- Pull the signature card
2- That's just stupid. It's why I kept deposit slips by my window.
3- I'd always get people to deposit the check and take the first hundred that cleared.
4- Depending on where it's from, it can be.
5- Depends on what kind of overdraft they're paying for. It's not like that anymore, but it did work like that at one time, at least according to my former boss.
6- That's just unfortunate. Call the person who wrote the check and get another one.
7- That's still a pisser. Caused a big problem when I first got married.
8- Ain't that still fraud?
9- We used to shred those.
10- That would make me laugh.
11- That would...
1-Signature card is not id. Plus peoples signatures change.
3-That's logical and it's actually $200 now. however checks process at midnight. A minimum of 200 will be available The next day. Again, not magic.4-once and if they can be cashed. yes.
5-If they use a credit card or savings account as overdraft you can pull from that, but not the $35 mini-loan the bank gives if you overdraft.
6- All checks are void after 6 months (or less if its written on the check).
7-open a joint account that stays at zero. My spouse and I have one and it's useful for so many reasons.
8- Possibly. Often it's a husband and wife on the check. Despite their marriage they are not, in fact, one person.
9- it was so stupid I was unable to articulate anything other than "uhhh, no."
11- this woman was in the drive up and the check was from her husband. She was wealthy, but really really stupid. I assume she used to be supermodel pretty and married for money. She screamed at me through the drive up speaker when I politely and professionally told her no. Everyone heard her before It shut off. I calmly turned to my supervisor and said, "Mary (not real name), I have a customer who needs you." This same woman was also #5 and #8 on seperate occations.
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Like any system it has weaknesses and holes. Some are easily exploited, others are ironclad
True. This particular system has been developing since before cuneiform, so it's got a lot of feature creep.
Like any system it has weaknesses and holes. Some are easily exploited, others are ironcladTrue. This particular system has been developing since before cuneiform, so it's got a lot of feature creep.
~laughter~ Good point. ~pulls out my clay tablet and my reed stylus~ Do I sign my checks this way?
~laughter~ Good point. ~pulls out my clay tablet and my reed stylus~ Do I sign my checks this way?Like any system it has weaknesses and holes. Some are easily exploited, others are ironcladTrue. This particular system has been developing since before cuneiform, so it's got a lot of feature creep.
the first "money" was clay cones and circles that represented hay bales and...something.. I forget what. Those were wrapped in clay and dried so they could be given to someone and traded after next years harvest for whatever the cones and circles indicated. Pre-cuneiform. ;-) I'm a nerd in case you missed that.
You're not wrong, but...
Have you considered that the whining comes from a legitimate concern? That things that we're used to getting as part of the whole package are being stripped away at the expense of the consumer?
Banks, as a whole, have a LOT of money. BofA isn't hurting for the cash, they just need the extra percent in growth YoY. If they're not increasing their profit, they're not doing it right in the eyes of investors. So things like this go on to appease the owners.
Consumers just might be perfectly aware of this, and they don't want to take another shafting to please some suits with bunches of money in the first place.
Right or wrong the masses don't make the rules. The people with money do. And of course they're going to gouge the consumer at every opportunity. It's called Capitalism and it's worked pretty well for quite some time.
If you believe the sugar coating about banks (or other large institutions) caring about you as an individual than you need to step back and re-evaluate. You use them and they use you, however the deck is stacked in favor of the larger party (banks). If they could legally make as much money by knocking you down on the street and taking it they would. The trick is to balance keeping you as a customer while simultaneously siphoning off as much money as they can.
They're not evil. They're a business and like any other business they're just trying to make money. Just because they're big and have money does not mean they're suddenly going to be a charity instead of a business.
Um, I actually think we're in complete agreement.
I happen to empathize with people complaining, and we both understand what it is they're complaining about. I'm not knocking Capitalism, I'm just pointing out that most people aren't rich anymore, and that BofA wants to take just a bit more sounds foolish in the long run.
I work at a casino, which is legally a sort of bank. It's completely different when the customer gives you their money willingly, but when it's lost, they're still just as angry about it.
**Stuff**
I work at a casino, which is legally a sort of bank. It's completely different when the...
I was at the bank when I wrote that. It was a bit of a rant, sorry.
I can see that about casinos. It's like a bank only people just walk in, hand them their money, then leave. Rather brilliant business model really. Kinda like a church. I wonder if I can open a casino that is a church? Hummm ***Ponders***
**Stuff**
I work at a casino, which is legally a sort of bank. It's completely different when the...I was at the bank when I wrote that. It was a bit of a rant, sorry.
I can see that about casinos. It's like a bank only people just walk in, hand them their money, then leave. Rather brilliant business model really. Kinda like a church. I wonder if I can open a casino that is a church? Hummm ***Ponders***
Yeah, the federal government happened to notice the same thing. I just had my regular biannual Title 31 class today.
Don't get me wrong, a casino gives, too. Just, it takes way more than it gives by a great margin. I see all kinds of jackpots that are good payouts for who wins them, but way more people are stressed out pulling out their wallet again for another cash advance with another fee attached to it. Oh, and when it comes time for a CTR-C, they flip out. I've seen all the myriad ways of avoiding the report...
Banks and all their fees are still cheaper than using check cashing places to do your banking.
Oh yeah, I imagine the church-casino would be a fantastic business-religion to own. Take all their money, and pay no taxes on it. Brilliant.
Banks and all their fees are still cheaper than using check cashing places to do your banking.
This. I remember when I had to rely on those places to cash my checks when I first started working. Never again.
Oh, and those 'till payday loan places can go away, too. There's a reason those places have bulletproof glass and my credit union doesn't need it.
Anyway, the point is that banking shouldn't be a costly affair in the first place. It's all your money. It's loans that should, and do, cost you more to deal with.
Also, the "billions in bailout money" wasn't as nice and clean as people think it was.
It certainly wasn't--on top of the billions of tax-payer dollars, the Federal Reserve secretly printed up 15 trillion and handed it over to the banks. This was only revealed when Bernie Sanders and (I think) Ron Paul finally got an audit of the Fed.
The institituions might not have benefitted (I really can't say), but the CEOs made out like bandits. Because that's what they are.
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I'm also not sure I buy into the "innocent business" defense. The fdic exists for a reason. I'm not saying a bank should not attempt to see a profit, just that we all remember (or learned in school) the role banks played in the Greater depression,. Maybe they should become something else? I'm not sure what.
I'm also not sure I buy into the "innocent business" defense. The fdic exists for a reason. I'm not saying a bank should not attempt to see a profit, just that we all remember (or learned in school) the role banks played in the Greater depression,. Maybe they should become something else? I'm not sure what.
Just don't say the government should take over. Then we'd really be screwed. Just compare the US postal service with UPS. One of them is the model of efficiency and the other is run by the government.
[rant]The guy at the front desk at our post office gets paid 60K+ per year and can't get fired. Of course he's the only person at the counter when there is a line out the door. They can't afford to hire another, plus they don't have to care. The post office will never go out of business. It's continued existence is in the friggin constitution. [/rant]
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This, and so much else, is really the fault of the government. Regardless of popular belief, banks do not create money out of thin air -- the government does (or at least tries to).
Again, I'm not saying that banks are faultless. But even this article said that this money was in the form of loans given out by the government. In fact, financial institutions are hardly mentioned at all in the article.
Also, for the record, credit unions were not allowed to partake of the "bailout". Even though they are hurting just as much as the banks. Instead, they are being forced to "bail out" themselves.
Just don't say the government should take over. Then we'd really be screwed. Just compare the US postal service with UPS. One of them is the model of efficiency and the other is run by the government.
As a UPS employee, let me be the first one to say:
Hee hee!
"Model of efficiency," that's a good one...
Also, if I understand things correctly: both the Federal Reserve and the USPS are hybrid private/public institutions.
I'll leave it at that, because my understanding is pretty fuzzy. Someone else care to explain?
Just don't say the government should take over. Then we'd really be screwed. Just compare the US postal service with UPS. One of them is the model of efficiency and the other is run by the government.
As a UPS employee, let me be the first one to say:
Hee hee!
"Model of efficiency," that's a good one...
Relatively speaking. Any large organization that relies on people will have it's issues. I'm not an employee I'm just guessing. Although I heard some places use a program to route the trucks to minimize left turns. It reduces gas costs and time, etc. Sounds a lot more efficient than waiting in line an hour to send a certified letter.
Also, if I understand things correctly: both the Federal Reserve and the USPS are hybrid private/public institutions.
I'll leave it at that, because my understanding is pretty fuzzy. Someone else care to explain?
They subcontract civilians sometimes, but those are both very much government institutions. It's like saying the military is a hybrid because they subcontract the mess hall workers.
Just don't say the government should take over. Then we'd really be screwed. Just compare the US postal service with UPS. One of them is the model of efficiency and the other is run by the government.
As a UPS employee, let me be the first one to say:
Hee hee!
"Model of efficiency," that's a good one...
a good point. I'm sure ups screws up from time to time, but we are never hear about it.
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I'm also not sure I buy into the "innocent business" defense. The fdic exists for a reason. I'm not saying a bank should not attempt to see a profit, just that we all remember (or learned in school) the role banks played in the Greater depression,. Maybe they should become something else? I'm not sure what.Just don't say the government should take over. Then we'd really be screwed. Just compare the US postal service with UPS. One of them is the model of efficiency and the other is run by the government.
[rant]The guy at the front desk at our post office gets paid 60K+ per year and can't get fired. Of course he's the only person at the counter when there is a line out the door. They can't afford to hire another, plus they don't have to care. The post office will never go out of business. It's continued existence is in the friggin constitution. [/rant]
Actually the post office is as efficient as UPS or FedEx but by law the post office is not allowed to directly compete with them. The post office can't even set it's own prices without an act of Congress. The only reason they're going broke is because Congress won't allow them to make money.
Actually the post office is as efficient as UPS or FedEx but by law the post office is not allowed to directly compete with them. The post office can't even set it's own prices without an act of Congress. The only reason they're going broke is because Congress won't allow them to make money.
interesting. i did not know that.
Actually the post office is as efficient as UPS or FedEx but by law the post office is not allowed to directly compete with them. The post office can't even set it's own prices without an act of Congress. The only reason they're going broke is because Congress won't allow them to make money.interesting. i did not know that.
i have vague memories about post office employees fighting to raise postage and congress fighting them on it.
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The post office also has to charge the same rates for all US territories no matter how far away they or how hard it is to get there. Mailing a letter to Guam costs the same as mailing a letter across the street. Want to mail a letter to McMerdo base in Antarctica, it'll only cost you 49 cents.
Also, if I understand things correctly: both the Federal Reserve and the USPS are hybrid private/public institutions.
I'll leave it at that, because my understanding is pretty fuzzy. Someone else care to explain?
The Federal Reserve is a private company that the US Gov't gets its money supply from, who in turn distribute the money into the economy through banks. It's a little more than that, but that's the very basic setup. I don't know much about the USPS.
This, and so much else, is really the fault of the government. Regardless of popular belief, banks do not create money out of thin air -- the government does (or at least tries to).Again, I'm not saying that banks are faultless. But even this article said that this money was in the form of loans given out by the government. In fact, financial institutions are hardly mentioned at all in the article.
Also, for the record, credit unions were not allowed to partake of the "bailout". Even though they are hurting just as much as the banks. Instead, they are being forced to "bail out" themselves.
Hey, Moff--
Sometimes when people are directly replying back and forth the issue under contention gets obscured.
In this case, I certainly don't deny that there's high-level collusion between government and finance. All I am pointing out is that the amount of money needed to prevent the world's financial collapse was much, much more than the relatively meager sum of the Paulson bill.
TCG--same introductory paragraph
While the Postal Service is definitely a public institution (which is why postal workers usually aren't allowed to strike) it's not the same as, say, teachers or firefighters. It's supposed to run without taxpayer money except, of course, when they run up a deficit and take out loans from the government, which is, of course, what the whole current fracas is about.
Swivl laid out most of what I understand about the Fed, but I, too, think there's more to it than that. Where's a Ron Paul supporter when you need one?
And to get back to the original topic, I do all my banking with the New England Teamsters Federal Credit Union.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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When I switched to using my BofA debit card everywhere instead of carrying cash, adapting was exactly what I was doing. They, and vendors everywhere, certainly encouraged it. That was the way the world was headed: electronic. BofA is now exploiting this situation out of greed.
And you are incapable of switching banks for some reason?
They are essentially exploiting your unwillingness to change banks, they've discovered a way to profit from laziness, they will be billionaires!
In my eyes something is unethical when there is deceit, or some sort of coercion involved. In this case there is neither.
When I switched to using my BofA debit card everywhere instead of carrying cash, adapting was exactly what I was doing. They, and vendors everywhere, certainly encouraged it. That was the way the world was headed: electronic. BofA is now exploiting this situation out of greed.And you are incapable of switching banks for some reason?
They are essentially exploiting your unwillingness to change banks, they've discovered a way to profit from laziness, they will be billionaires!
In my eyes something is unethical when there is deceit, or some sort of coercion involved. In this case there is neither.
that
Senior Software Developer
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15 trillion, 16 trillion, who's counting?
Some perspective on the publication in question. This isn't really a linked article, it's a repurposed blog post from here, looks like.
BofA to assess a $5/month fee for debit card use.
I think this is a mistake, because I do not believe it will have the intended effect. Rather, it will drive people back to checks, which cost more to process.
Thoughts?
I bank with wells fargo and if I see a fee all my money's coming out.
I bank with wells fargo and if I see a fee all my money's coming out.BofA to assess a $5/month fee for debit card use.
I think this is a mistake, because I do not believe it will have the intended effect. Rather, it will drive people back to checks, which cost more to process.
Thoughts?
Depending on your account type it starts Nov 16. Is your account a crown or PMA? If no, Fee for you!
Also it's $3. The lowest of the banks. most are $5 or $6.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Also it's $3. The lowest of the banks. most are $5 or $6.
Lowest of the "Banks"? Maybe if you are just limiting it to traditional banks. Many credit unions and web only banks charge $0.
What exactly is the advantage of a traditional bank?
Also it's $3. The lowest of the banks. most are $5 or $6.Lowest of the "Banks"? Maybe if you are just limiting it to traditional banks. Many credit unions and web only banks charge $0.
What exactly is the advantage of a traditional bank?
I clearly said bank. Not credit union. Generally speaking the benefit is going to be number of locations and ATM's. That's really all that comes to mind.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I clearly said bank. Not credit union. Generally speaking the benefit is going to be number of locations and ATM's. That's really all that comes to mind.Also it's $3. The lowest of the banks. most are $5 or $6.Lowest of the "Banks"? Maybe if you are just limiting it to traditional banks. Many credit unions and web only banks charge $0.
What exactly is the advantage of a traditional bank?
I don't think most people differentiate. It's the place where you put your money. Regardless, "ING Bank, fsb, a federally chartered savings bank" does not charge anything.
What is the benefit of having physical locations? Don't most people do their banking online by now? Going to a physical bank is a quaint tradition, but waiting in lines is abhorrent to me... I can't remember the last time I went to an actual bank. I think it was to wire some money, I switched banks because of that.
I don't think most people differentiate. It's the place where you put your money. Regardless, "ING Bank, fsb, a federally chartered savings bank" does not charge anything.What is the benefit of having physical locations? Don't most people do their banking online by now? Going to a physical bank is a quaint tradition, but waiting in lines is abhorrent to me... I can't remember the last time I went to an actual bank. I think it was to wire some money, I switched banks because of that.
If people were logical you'd be right about a physical location being of minimal use. Frankly if I didn't work in a bank I'd never go in one. However, 90% of the stuff I do for people they could accomplish online in a fraction of the time. Including depositing checks!
Lots of people don't trust "the internets." They want a professional to put their banking information into a computer for them...that's connected to the internets. ... ... Yea.
I don't think most people differentiate. It's the place where you put your money. Regardless, "ING Bank, fsb, a federally chartered savings bank" does not charge anything.What is the benefit of having physical locations? Don't most people do their banking online by now? Going to a physical bank is a quaint tradition, but waiting in lines is abhorrent to me... I can't remember the last time I went to an actual bank. I think it was to wire some money, I switched banks because of that.
If people were logical you'd be right about a physical location being of minimal use. Frankly if I didn't work in a bank I'd never go in one. However, 90% of the stuff I do for people they could accomplish online in a fraction of the time. Including depositing checks!
Lots of people don't trust "the internets." They want a professional to put their banking information into a computer for them...that's connected to the internets. ... ... Yea.
i know things have changed since when I was behind glass, but I don't think it's that simple. When you deal with a teller you tend to create a paper trail that's easier to follow. Being able to do things online is nice, but at the end of the day most people want someone they can get hold personally responsible for any screw ups, and that tends to mean dealing with a traditional bank.
i know things have changed since when I was behind glass, but I don't think it's that simple. When you deal with a teller you tend to create a paper trail that's easier to follow. Being able to do things online is nice, but at the end of the day most people want someone they can get hold personally responsible for any screw ups, and that tends to mean dealing with a traditional bank.
I only named one reason, but yes there are many reasons to use a physical bank. Some people prefer to deal with another human, some people (like me) prefer not to whenever possible.
The "not trusting the internets" thing is simply one example of many why people like physical banks. I simply have vivid memories of the looks of disgust when I (as a requirement of my job) discuss using the website.
For the record; I use USAA and I have never had a problem that I couldn't solve with them in a 15 minute or less phone call. No physical bank needed.
Different strokes for different folks and all that.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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i know things have changed since when I was behind glass, but I don't think it's that simple. When you deal with a teller you tend to create a paper trail that's easier to follow. Being able to do things online is nice, but at the end of the day most people want someone they can get hold personally responsible for any screw ups, and that tends to mean dealing with a traditional bank.
*shrug*
I guess if it makes people happy and keeps people employed, it must be good. The way I see it, if you insist on waiting in line and having a person do a fairly trivial task for you, you are going to have to pay for the privilege.
My wife uses Union Bank because she occasionally goes to the physical banks the only monthly fee she pays is $2 to get copies of the checks she sends out (which are available for free online but she likes the paper), so there are local *banks* with branches who don't charge the fee either.
15 trillion, 16 trillion, who's counting?Some perspective on the publication in question. This isn't really a linked article, it's a repurposed blog post from here, looks like.
I know nothing about the Business Insider. I chose it because it seemed a more palatable alternative to the usual litany of commie sites that I usually link.
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