How to beat mind control


Advice


If there is one thing I hate more than any other in RPGs its Mind Control.

the problem is that my favorite class is a ranger which gets a horrible will save.

I know that I can take Iron Will and improved Iron will, or simply raise my WIS in order to better defend myself from mind control abilities but I am wondering if any one knows of or has fair ideas for magic items that can be bought of made which will give the greatest protection from suggestion, charm and dominate style abilities

yes I know that the DC saves for these are generally quite low but I have notorious bad luck in rolling will saves and want better protection.


Buy scrolls of protection from (alignment X, normally evil), and have another party member cast it for you.
Other than that use the cloak of resistance to boost all of your saves.

I don't know of anything made specifically for mind control type spells.

Scarab Sages

The resonance of th clear spindle ioun stone may be of use if you get your hands on a wayfinder and your DM uses the preset bonus table vice the random effect table.


In my experience, mind control effects are very rare in D&D. Players use them against monsters, but it's almost never the other way around. Personally, I'd just mention your preference to your GM, and it's unlikely you'll have to deal with it more than one or two times in the course of a long campaign.


at level 8 I have been mind controlled something like 4 times much more if you count annoying suggestions. I beat the DC about 1/6th of the time... i suck at the rolls.

its not that my GM just loves charming people. the actual, campaign path is rife with outsiders and other creatures that use suggestion, charm or dominate on a regular basis.

understanding the DC are low I still hate when it works on me and form personal vendettas against enemies that succeed.

I guess Magnetos helm of mind protection is a bit much to ask for huh?


Blueluck wrote:
In my experience, mind control effects are very rare in D&D. Players use them against monsters, but it's almost never the other way around. Personally, I'd just mention your preference to your GM, and it's unlikely you'll have to deal with it more than one or two times in the course of a long campaign.

Use feats and traits. For example, if you are a dwarf (+2 to saves vs spells/spell-likes). They have a feat that gives them another +2 to these saves (steel soul) and a trait that gives another +1. Then, as you may notice, they have a wisdom (ergo saves) bonus, which as a ranger is useful anyway. Other feats or equipment bonuses can help as well. I think there was feat (though it might have been 3.5) that let you add your FE bonus to saves from these enemies, but I'm not sure what it was called or where it was from.

That said, a ranger isn't meant to have the world's most awesome will save - that is for clerics, paladins, druids etc, but then again they are already very devoted and may have a lot of dealings with various temptations a simple ranger doesn't bother with. You should be able to be pretty decent, though.


blue_the_wolf wrote:
at level 8 I have been mind controlled something like 4 times much more if you count annoying suggestions. . .

Wow, that sucks! As a frequent GM myself, I can't imagine writing an adventure with that much mind control in it. Even if I assume you missed your DC 1/4 of the time rather than 1/6th, that's 16 mind control attempts in 8 levels, that's a single character getting mind controlled twice per level, plus suggestion spells.

I have no idea what adventure you're playing, and I wouldn't usually criticize it site unseen, but two mind controls per level is bad adventure writing!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
concerro wrote:

Buy scrolls of protection from (alignment X, normally evil), and have another party member cast it for you.

Other than that use the cloak of resistance to boost all of your saves.

I don't know of anything made specifically for mind control type spells.

To add to the above:

Potions of protection from [alignment]. They cost 50 gp and last 1 minute. Not wonderful but useful.

Even more useful: convince one or you companions to memorize/learn magic circle against [alignment] (what alignment depend on your group and kind of adventures and use it.

The resist and deflection bonus aren't so useful in a campaign with normal magic availability, but the protective effects against mind magic are, and the 10 minutes/level duration and 10' radius area of effect make it a very useful spell.

PRD wrote:


Magic Circle against Evil
School abjuration [good]; Level cleric 3, paladin 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
Area 10-ft.-radius emanation from touched creature
Duration 10 min./level

All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell, and evil summoned creatures cannot enter the area either. Creatures in the area, or who later enter the area, receive only one attempt to suppress effects that are controlling them.

Protection from Evil

Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects). This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.

Shadow Lodge

blue_the_wolf wrote:

If there is one thing I hate more than any other in RPGs its Mind Control.

the problem is that my favorite class is a ranger which gets a horrible will save.

I know that I can take Iron Will and improved Iron will, or simply raise my WIS in order to better defend myself from mind control abilities but I am wondering if any one knows of or has fair ideas for magic items that can be bought of made which will give the greatest protection from suggestion, charm and dominate style abilities

yes I know that the DC saves for these are generally quite low but I have notorious bad luck in rolling will saves and want better protection.

its not bad for players at all. the dc to see if a player ic mind controlled is simple for any player with rankes in perception. and to top it all IF you fail your save, you have casters that can dispell the effect very quickly. so players tend to be safe from mc with a balanced party.

Liberty's Edge

Protection from Evil (first level spell for just about everybody but druids/rangers) blocks new mind control effects, and allows a new save versus existing effects.

As a warrior-type, it's not really on you to stop getting mind controlled; as you've noted, your class is rather vulnerable to those effects, and has no real way of countering. This is why adventurers form parties, so their weaknesses get covered and their strengths get emphasized.

EDIT: after all, you don't expect the wizard to take point and tank, and you don't expect the cleric to scout. /EDIT

Your fellow party members should be helping you here: the rogue can tell if you are under the effects of a compulsion (which includes suggestion I think), and all the spell-casters in the party can drop a Pro:Evil on you as soon as they spot mind controlling critters; by 8th level, they shouldn't need all of their first level spell slots to function.

But yeah, mind control is annoying.


Keep in mind, that it's also easy for your friends to mind control you.

I once suggested our party fighter to attack only the bad guy until one of them died.

Mind control away, he's got to finish the fight first.

Shadow Lodge

rkraus2 wrote:

Keep in mind, that it's also easy for your friends to mind control you.

I once suggested our party fighter to attack only the bad guy until one of them died.

Mind control away, he's got to finish the fight first.

yeah then you die during your hour prep for spells.


In my experiance mind control is how the spellcaster players keep the martial players in line. After all, it's Spellcasters > Martial characters most of the time. 4/5 times the mind control is coming from within the party, not without.


Writer wrote:
In my experiance mind control is how the spellcaster players keep the martial players in line. After all, it's Spellcasters > Martial characters most of the time.

AM DIRTY LIE. CLEARLY EXPERIANCE NOT INCLUDE ANY NON-CRAPPY BARBARIANS.

Silver Crusade

Blueluck wrote:
In my experience, mind control effects are very rare in D&D. Players use them against monsters, but it's almost never the other way around. Personally, I'd just mention your preference to your GM, and it's unlikely you'll have to deal with it more than one or two times in the course of a long campaign.

In my experience, it's the opposite.

Granted, we didn't have a lot of enchanters in our group (we never, ever had a bard yet for example), and we more often have combat classes with low-to-average will saves. But mind control is still something horrible that we suffered numerous times.


Talk to your DM about getting an item that gives you immunity to mind influencing effects. In all actuality in any decently magical campaign it should be a fairly common and somewhat cheap item. Every merchant worth half his salt is going to have at least some way to prevent every low level spell caster from robbing him blind while he helps them load his wares in to their cart.

Lessor X item of clear thoughts: Protects you from up to 3rd level mind influencing.

X item of clear thoughts: Protects you from up to 6th level mind influencing effects.

Etc.

No more powerful or out of line than the mind influencing effects themselves.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If the campaign is centered around mind affecting enemies, then dont count on the gm helping you out here. If he has a cabal of mind mages as the main villain group he isn't going to pass out helms of mind blank. Have a talk with your dm, but be mindful that you may be trying to step on his whole plan for the campaign, so tread lightly.


Ask your DM if you can play a strong willed/weak fortitude Ranger.

You can also see if you can special order a Cloak of Resistance that only grants WILL for 1/3 of the price to boost it up for cheaper.

Liberty's Edge

Frogboy wrote:

Ask your DM if you can play a strong willed/weak fortitude Ranger.

You can also see if you can special order a Cloak of Resistance that only grants WILL for 1/3 of the price to boost it up for cheaper.

There are already rules in crafting that will allow you to craft a cloak of 'will saves'.

-Edit- Also dont be afraid to add luck, insight, or sacred(profane) bonuses to your saves. Resistance and other types of saves can be stacked on the same item if you have enough gold for it.


Protection from evil protects you from mind control by "non-good" and
protection from good protects you from mind contol by "non-evil" so

If you had both up you're effectively protected from possession and mind control. Technically. Though DM's may have an issue with this.


Have your friend the party Bard/enchanter/Sorcerer cast Charm Person on you, which makes you 'friendly' towards the Bard/Enchanter/Sorcerer. If anyone else attempts to influence/control you mentally, they also need to beat an opposed Charisma check with the Bard/Enchanter/Sorcerer.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Protection from evil protects you from mind control by "non-good" and

protection from good protects you from mind contol by "non-evil" so

If you had both up you're effectively protected from possession and mind control. Technically. Though DM's may have an issue with this.

What? Protection from evil protects you against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects. Protection from good protects you against spells and effects created by good creatures or objects. Neither protect against neutral.


Talynonyx wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Protection from evil protects you from mind control by "non-good" and

protection from good protects you from mind contol by "non-evil" so

If you had both up you're effectively protected from possession and mind control. Technically. Though DM's may have an issue with this.

What? Protection from evil protects you against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects. Protection from good protects you against spells and effects created by good creatures or objects. Neither protect against neutral.

I just checked. You're right. I was thinking of something else, possibly a different edition.


Corrik wrote:

Talk to your DM about getting an item that gives you immunity to mind influencing effects. In all actuality in any decently magical campaign it should be a fairly common and somewhat cheap item. Every merchant worth half his salt is going to have at least some way to prevent every low level spell caster from robbing him blind while he helps them load his wares in to their cart.

Lessor X item of clear thoughts: Protects you from up to 3rd level mind influencing.

X item of clear thoughts: Protects you from up to 6th level mind influencing effects.

Etc.

No more powerful or out of line than the mind influencing effects themselves.

Immunity should not be cheap, if it exist at all. At that point why not just make an immunity to pretty much everything else?


Of course there's always Mind Blank

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Protection from evil protects you from mind control by "non-good" and

protection from good protects you from mind contol by "non-evil" so

If you had both up you're effectively protected from possession and mind control. Technically. Though DM's may have an issue with this.

Upon reading the spell, it seemed to me that the protection against control effects functioned independent of alignment (unlike the AC/save bonuses).

I think it could be a reasonable reading of the power of the pathfinder plus joun stone, but it is not valid for the spell. It clearly states: "This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion."

While the resonant power for a Pathfinder plus Clear Spindle joun stone say: "Protection from possession and mental control (as protection from evil)"
So it reference a spell for a way to see how that kind of protection work, but it not give explicitly the same limit (i.e. it don't say it work only against evil). Au contraire the not parenthesized part seem to say the exact opposite.

Personally I feel that 4.500 gp to get that kind of protection is too cheap, so I would limit the effect to only one alignment. Even more as the combo don't use any item slot.

A item doing doing full protection from all form of possession and mental control, regardless of the attacker alignment probably would be a ring and priced around 15-20.000 gp in my game world.

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Of course there's always Mind Blank

No more, it "only" gives a +8 resistance in Pathfinder, not total immunity as previous editions.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'd put it more around 40k, same as a ring of freedom of movement. I consider immunity to possession and such to be equivalent to that.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Protection from evil protects you from mind control by "non-good" and

protection from good protects you from mind contol by "non-evil" so

If you had both up you're effectively protected from possession and mind control. Technically. Though DM's may have an issue with this.

Upon reading the spell, it seemed to me that the protection against control effects functioned independent of alignment (unlike the AC/save bonuses).

I think it could be a reasonable reading of the power of the pathfinder plus joun stone, but it is not valid for the spell. It clearly states: "This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion."

While the resonant power for a Pathfinder plus Clear Spindle joun stone say: "Protection from possession and mental control (as protection from evil)"
So it reference a spell for a way to see how that kind of protection work, but it not give explicitly the same limit (i.e. it don't say it work only against evil). Au contraire the not parenthesized part seem to say the exact opposite.

Personally I feel that 4.500 gp to get that kind of protection is too cheap, so I would limit the effect to only one alignment. Even more as the combo don't use any item slot.

A item doing doing full protection from all form of possession and mental control, regardless of the attacker alignment probably would be a ring and priced around 15-20.000 gp in my game world.

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Of course there's always Mind Blank
No more, it "only" gives a +8 resistance in Pathfinder, not total immunity as previous editions.

Gee, I don't recall saying that. :P

Seriously though, not sure how I missed that last sentence.


wraithstrike wrote:
Corrik wrote:

Talk to your DM about getting an item that gives you immunity to mind influencing effects. In all actuality in any decently magical campaign it should be a fairly common and somewhat cheap item. Every merchant worth half his salt is going to have at least some way to prevent every low level spell caster from robbing him blind while he helps them load his wares in to their cart.

Lessor X item of clear thoughts: Protects you from up to 3rd level mind influencing.

X item of clear thoughts: Protects you from up to 6th level mind influencing effects.

Etc.

No more powerful or out of line than the mind influencing effects themselves.

Immunity should not be cheap, if it exist at all. At that point why not just make an immunity to pretty much everything else?

That is a fair point. I just have a very large bias against mind influencing effects, especially considering how much the math is against you at lower to mid levels. A simple +10 to will saves against mind influencing effects and maybe a single reroll per day, using the 3, 6, 9 increments and one 'grand' version that gives immunity for 40k or so.

Say


Talynonyx wrote:
I'd put it more around 40k, same as a ring of freedom of movement. I consider immunity to possession and such to be equivalent to that.

Mind control is worse than being immobile. Mind control takes you out of the fight, and can turn you against your friends. It also covers a wide variety of situations, and is a staple of many monsters and spellcasters. That is why there is no item for it.

If the GM is going to hand out immunity to something he might as well just not use it.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Of course there's always Mind Blank
No more, it "only" gives a +8 resistance in Pathfinder, not total immunity as previous editions.

Still sounds like a "must have" if we're trying to max out a will power save.


I'm wary of any way to be immune to an entire school of magic. Bonuses to saves makes more sense in a game design sense.


wraithstrike wrote:
Talynonyx wrote:
I'd put it more around 40k, same as a ring of freedom of movement. I consider immunity to possession and such to be equivalent to that.

Mind control is worse than being immobile. Mind control takes you out of the fight, and can turn you against your friends. It also covers a wide variety of situations, and is a staple of many monsters and spellcasters. That is why there is no item for it.

If the GM is going to hand out immunity to something he might as well just not use it.

So because it is extremely powerful and common, any protections(assuming any even exist) should be rare and expensive? That doesn't sound very balanced.


Corrik wrote:
So because it is extremely powerful and common, any protections(assuming any even exist) should be rare and expensive? That doesn't sound very balanced.

There are protections. There isn't a way to gain immunity, though the protection from ___ spells come close. Weapon damage is the most common way for creatures to die and there is no way to become immune to that. I don't think anybody has found that unbalanced.


drumlord wrote:
Corrik wrote:
So because it is extremely powerful and common, any protections(assuming any even exist) should be rare and expensive? That doesn't sound very balanced.
There are protections. There isn't a way to gain immunity, though the protection from ___ spells come close. Weapon damage is the most common way for creatures to die and there is no way to become immune to that. I don't think anybody has found that unbalanced.

Just so many protections and strategies as to be next to immune. But if we are going to use that logic, than I should be able to buy an amulet which gives me +8 against being hit by mind influencing effects for 1500 gp just like I am able to buy armor which gives me +8 against being hit with a weapon for 1500 gp. I am more than willing to meet in the middle and settle for that.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

drumlord wrote:
I'm wary of any way to be immune to an entire school of magic. Bonuses to saves makes more sense in a game design sense.

You mean like True Seeing against the Illusion school?


Corrik wrote:
Just so many protections and strategies as to be next to immune. But if we are going to use that logic, than I should be able to buy an amulet which gives me +8 against being hit by mind influencing effects for 1500 gp just like I am able to buy armor which gives me +8 against being hit with a weapon for 1500 gp. I am more than willing to meet in the middle and settle for that.

I know I'm the one that made the comparison first, but not all aspects of this game are created equal. There are a lot more ways to get protection from weapons but it goes hand in hand with how many ways there are to be better at using your weapon. Optimization of melee build can get very complicated.

Optimizing an enchanter means spell focus and spell penetration. There are very few other ways to make your enchantments more powerful and that's by design. Enchantment spells rarely take out the BBEG and are more typically a way of eliminating weak-willed peons. And really, that's as it should be. When an enchanter uses a dominate to take out a BBEG, it will be a rare occasion that is worth celebrating. Compare that to a typical fighter/barb/etc. that is just a weensy bit optimized; I guarantee they are hitting things left and right. If they hit the BBEGs just 30% of the time, they are probably still the ones ending those fights.

Petty Alchemy wrote:
You mean like True Seeing against the Illusion school?

I'll take the bait. I am a bit wary of True Seeing eliminating the Illusion school, but the designers clearly were as well. It has a material component cost and only lasts minutes per level. It's far from an item that makes you immune to Illusions and in a non-epic campaign, I wouldn't allow a player to craft an item that gave continuous True Seeing.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Of course there's always Mind Blank

It's a 8th level spell. That's very far from "always" - I have yet to see a game reach 15th level.


drumlord wrote:
Corrik wrote:
Just so many protections and strategies as to be next to immune. But if we are going to use that logic, than I should be able to buy an amulet which gives me +8 against being hit by mind influencing effects for 1500 gp just like I am able to buy armor which gives me +8 against being hit with a weapon for 1500 gp. I am more than willing to meet in the middle and settle for that.

I know I'm the one that made the comparison first, but not all aspects of this game are created equal. There are a lot more ways to get protection from weapons but it goes hand in hand with how many ways there are to be better at using your weapon. Optimization of melee build can get very complicated.

Optimizing an enchanter means spell focus and spell penetration. There are very few other ways to make your enchantments more powerful and that's by design. Enchantment spells rarely take out the BBEG and are more typically a way of eliminating weak-willed peons. And really, that's as it should be. When an enchanter uses a dominate to take out a BBEG, it will be a rare occasion that is worth celebrating. Compare that to a typical fighter/barb/etc. that is just a weensy bit optimized; I guarantee they are hitting things left and right. If they hit the BBEGs just 30% of the time, they are probably still the ones ending those fights.

Well for a good portion of the game you don't really need to make them more powerful, and after that the few options you do have are more than enough if you are looking to specialize and optimize. But sure, the BBEG typically has good saves and a crap ton of magic items that makes it hard for things to land. Boo Hoo the Tier 1 doesn't get to cast the overpowered spell every once in a blue moon. Look at it from the perspective of the fighter, every time anyone with even the slightest knowledge of magic wants to make him do something, odds are they will. Because the issue isn't really with players using it against low level peons, it's about having having the spells used on the players and/or players using them on other players and thus making said players feel like low level peons. It isn't even like these are powerful high level spells, some of these are 1st level for crying out loud.

I mean with the current save system and the options for protections against mind influencing spells, do you really think that Murderous Command is a fair and balanced spell? That a 1st level cleric with an okay WIS of 16 has a 35% chance of making a 20th level fighter with an average WIS of 10 kill his best friend who is standing beside him? Oh sure the fighter can spend 12,500 gold on a +5 cloak of resistance. But should a 20th level fighter have to spend that much to protect himself from an unequipped level one character?


Petty Alchemy wrote:
You mean like True Seeing against the Illusion school?
I'll take the bait. I am a bit wary of True Seeing eliminating the Illusion school, but the designers clearly were as well. It has a material component cost and only lasts minutes per level. It's far from an item that makes you immune to Illusions and in a non-epic campaign, I wouldn't allow a player to craft an item that gave continuous True Seeing.

Like the Gem of Seeing for 75k, the Crystal Ball with True Seeing for 80k, the Robe of Eyes for 120k, or the Cauldron of Seeing for 42k plus the trus seeing cost (as crystal ball)?

Granted, none of these are fully continuous, but is that what the OP asked for?


The Shaman wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Of course there's always Mind Blank
It's a 8th level spell. That's very far from "always" - I have yet to see a game reach 15th level.

all you need is a1/d item. expensive, but do able.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Petty Alchemy wrote:
drumlord wrote:
I'm wary of any way to be immune to an entire school of magic. Bonuses to saves makes more sense in a game design sense.
You mean like True Seeing against the Illusion school?

Or Mind Blank against the Divination school. Or a construct against the Necromancy or Enchantment schools.

Immunity to whole schools is nothing new.


North of a certain level it seems like every other creature has true seeing and immunity to mind-affecting. Immunity to necromancy is a far rarer thing.

When counting immunities, you do have to count creatures that have it natively, too.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
The Shaman wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Of course there's always Mind Blank
It's a 8th level spell. That's very far from "always" - I have yet to see a game reach 15th level.
all you need is a1/d item. expensive, but do able.

I just looked at robe of eyes. It needs true seeing to make, but it does not give true seeing.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I wnat to point out that the "protection from evil" effect don't block the whole enchantment school of spells.
It blocks: "any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature".
So confusion, power word kill, feeblemind, sleep and numerous others still work.
It is only when the caster try to control the mind of the subject that the protection work.
There are several trick spells that can be interpreted one way or the other but it is not an absolute protection.


Corrik wrote:
Well for a good portion of the game you don't really need to make them more powerful, and after that the few options you do have are more than enough if you are looking to specialize and optimize.

Not nearly as many options as a martial character. The game is largely still "balanced" around doing damage. With enchantments, illusions, etc. the designers do their best. But it will not be completely balanced. I do NOT want to turn this into an edition war as I think each edition has its strengths, but when you try to balance all these different types of effects (damage, compulsion, etc.) you get 4E and you wind up with magic-users being exactly the same as martial characters.

Corrik wrote:
But sure, the BBEG typically has good saves and a crap ton of magic items that makes it hard for things to land. Boo Hoo the Tier 1 doesn't get to cast the overpowered spell every once in a blue moon.

Please don't "boo hoo" me as I'm not the one who is worked up over this issue. Also, I don't measure game mechanics in tiers.

Corrik wrote:
That a 1st level cleric with an okay WIS of 16 has a 35% chance of making a 20th level fighter with an average WIS of 10 kill his best friend who is standing beside him? Oh sure the fighter can spend 12,500 gold on a +5 cloak of resistance. But should a 20th level fighter have to spend that much to protect himself from an unequipped level one character?

In this system that seems reasonable. You are comparing a completely unprotected fighter to a caster. We don't have to like it, but this system is designed with every single level 20 character having a cloak of resistance +5 and if I were that fighter I would likely take the Iron Will feat and make sure I have a headband increasing my Wisdom. To not have these items, you will lose against CR 20+ enemies. Forget 1st level casters.

To flip your comparison on its head, take a 20th level cleric against a 1st level fighter with a strength of 16. Since your fighter was not buffed and was wearing no protective items, neither is my cleric. Because he has a dex of 10, he has an AC of 10. The 1st level fighter will hit him 75% of the time. Sure, he'll take a while to die, but Murderous Command isn't going to kill the 20th level fighter and isn't likely to end his best friend's life, unless we're talking about situations where 1st level clerics approach unprotected 20th level fighters in the streets while they walk with their low level best friends.

If so, I think our theorycraft has gone too far and it's best to go back to talking about realistic game situations.


very interesting points on all sides.

One of the few things i truely like about 4E is that they took away many of the succeed or die effects like being turned to stone my a gaese attack.

I would be happy for example with a charm spell with a higher DC but per round chance to break the charm

as it is now a charm cast on the right person could pretty much spell party wipe.

having said that I think i am going to invest in improved iron will as the money for will bonuses are usually better used getting dex or other magic benefits and rangers (archers) are actually pretty easy to max out on feats.

not only that re rolling a failed save is an amazing benefit.

(EDIT) crap... just realized that iron will is only +2 and IIW is just a double roll that may be wasted on a successful save.

for some reason I though that it was +4 and re roll a save.

one is very useful, the other... not so much

Shadow Lodge

blue_the_wolf wrote:


as it is now a charm cast on the right person could pretty much spell party wipe.

Okay. Insert dominate person and you describe the what you describe.

1) In combat Charm person has a +5 bonus to save.
2) Even outside combat, the person sees the charmer as a trusted friend or ally. IT DOESN'T MEAN THEIR GOALS CHANGE. IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T STOP SEEING THEIR OTHER FRIENDS AND ALLIES AS FRIENDS AND ALLIES. What it means is, the charmed person would try to negotiate between thier 'friends', using non lethal damage etc. No way would lead directly to a party wipe.

The Exchange

blue_the_wolf wrote:
If there is one thing I hate more than any other in RPGs its Mind Control(...) I am wondering if any one knows of or has fair ideas for magic items that can be bought or made which will give the greatest protection from suggestion, charm and dominate style abilities

Well, the simplest method is invisibility or Stealth checks. All those spells specify a target or targets: if they don't see you until they're dead, mind control isn't an issue. Stealth is actually better than being invisible - fewer spells to overcome it. In social situations, of course, you can't be invisible or hiding - but in those situations no enchanter worth his salt is going to just blatantly cast an enchantment (except perhaps a Stilled, Silent version - the two-level hit is worthwhile for Enchantments though not for most other spells.)

Or - well, this is twisted, but keep a potion of cause deafness handy. Most (not all) mind control effects have the Language-Dependent descriptor or at least require you to hear your new master's orders... so you may be immune, or at least retain some of your character's freedom to act as he wills. Only a few foes (such as illithids and most fiends) can get around that problem via telepathy.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / How to beat mind control All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.