Oceans subdomain, Surge power


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

29 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

The cleric's Oceans subdomain replaces Water's icicle attack with this power:

PRD wrote:
Surge (Su): As a standard action, you can cause a mighty wave to appear that pushes or pulls a single creature. Make a combat maneuver check against the target, using your cleric level + your Wisdom modifier as your CMB. If successful, you may pull or push the creature as if using the bull rush or drag combat maneuver. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

What's the range on this? Is it melee, like a "normal" combat maneuver? Is it 30-ish feet away, like the spell hydraulic push? If it's melee, does it provoke an AoO if you don't have the appropriate Improved [Maneuver] feat?


I would make it akin to Hydraulic push. It doesn't make sense for it to be melee.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
I would make it akin to Hydraulic push. It doesn't make sense for it to be melee.

Then you have another problem: the spell's range will scale (albeit slowly) with level, while most enemy-affecting domain powers have a static range of 30 feet. My suspicion is that Surge is supposed to have a range of 30 feet just like all the others and they just forgot to write it in there. But that's just speculation.

Perhaps we should click the FAQ button? Unless someone knows what the range is supposed to be and why?


Jiggy wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
I would make it akin to Hydraulic push. It doesn't make sense for it to be melee.

Then you have another problem: the spell's range will scale (albeit slowly) with level, while most enemy-affecting domain powers have a static range of 30 feet. My suspicion is that Surge is supposed to have a range of 30 feet just like all the others and they just forgot to write it in there. But that's just speculation.

Perhaps we should click the FAQ button? Unless someone knows what the range is supposed to be and why?

I imagine it's just an oversight. Have you checked the Eratta?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
I would make it akin to Hydraulic push. It doesn't make sense for it to be melee.

Then you have another problem: the spell's range will scale (albeit slowly) with level, while most enemy-affecting domain powers have a static range of 30 feet. My suspicion is that Surge is supposed to have a range of 30 feet just like all the others and they just forgot to write it in there. But that's just speculation.

Perhaps we should click the FAQ button? Unless someone knows what the range is supposed to be and why?

I imagine it's just an oversight. Have you checked the Eratta?

If you mean the FAQ, yes, and there's nothing about it there.


I meant Errata But FAQ is good too. I would give it the same range as the icicile power.

Shadow Lodge

I'd go with either 10ft or 30 ft. Probably 30ft for consistancy. Definatly not Touch.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Bumping with a comment from James Jacobs:

Quote:

First off, this is obviously needing some errata, and so you should make this post in the proper thread as well and hit the FAQ button.

In the meantime... I'd say the range should be 60 feet. That's a completely arbitrary choice, though.

Folks, please click the FAQ button on the OP. Thanks!


FAQd

- Gauss

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

To repeat my comment on James thread:

James Jacobs wrote:
Jiggy wrote:

Hey James, how would you handle this?

There's a domain power that fails to specify its range.
** spoiler omitted **
Would you happen to know what the intent was on that? I'd hate to assume it's melee-only, as you'd then require a separate feat (actually, a PAIR of feats) to be able to use that power without provoking an AoO. Personally, I'm guessing it was supposed to be 30ft like so many other domain powers and that line just got left out by accident. But that's just my guess. Have any insight?

Thanks!

First off, this is obviously needing some errata, and so you should make this post in the proper thread as well and hit the FAQ button.

In the meantime... I'd say the range should be 60 feet. That's a completely arbitrary choice, though.

Unless I am mistaken:

* (SU) powers don't provoke
* it is the wave, not the cleric that attack, so he wouldn't provoke.

So I don't see what is the problem. The cleric get a decent special attack without provoking an attack of opportunity, it seem reasonable.
Making it a ranged attack seem strong.

I am missing something?

Waiting for a reply, FAQed.


FAQ'd. It seems to be all I am doing tonight. :)


Wraith: we could always debate the finer points of some rule or another. :D

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

Wraith: we could always debate the finer points of some rule or another. :D

- Gauss

I got one.

If I roll a nat 1 for a swim check is it an autofail. I think it is RAI that you fail all skill checks with a nat 1. I think this is need to power down skills.

Skill are already overpowered so they need to be toned down so it makes sense to me, but Jason just forgot to put it in the book that way. They can be performed while you are using another action. Stealth check is an example. They allow you to use another classes powers. UMD is an example. They don't have per day limits like spells do. They are also immune to anti-magic type affects. You can even use acrobatics to move through an enemy's square. It takes high level magic to do that. Then there is craft(underwater basketweaving). Now you have to be underwater so this skill allows you to breathe underwater. Otherwise it would not work. Once again it duplicates magic, and makes the casters more useless. Maybe cutting the number of skill ranks in half would work. Those skill focus feats only make things worse. Knowledge skill just allow you to metagame. Dirty metagamers. Profession is overpowered also. You can just make money without risking your life which is what an adventurer is supposed to do. That just takes away from the game on several levels.

I don't need to go any further. Anyone should be able to see that I am right if they know what balance is.

You can't convince me that skills are not broken without a developer's input.

Discuss.

Spoiler:
If you clicked this spoiler then you agree with me.

Spoiler:
just joking :)


Only attack rolls and saving throws are autosuccess or autofail. Skill checks are not on that list. As for the rest, quite amusing. :)

- Gauss


A while back someone wrote a very opinionated "I am right and if you disagree with me then you are an idiot" type thread. At the bottom of it they basically asked for people to discuss it, lol.

Of course they got a severe case of nerd rage when everyone disagreed with them. That is where I got the idea for the last two lines before the spoilers from.

Ok, I will stop threadjacking now. :)


Wraithstrike, at least it was an amusing threadjack. :D

- Gauss

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

JJ gave a interesting reply to my question:

James Jacobs wrote:


Correct; supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Those that require you to make a ranged attack DO, but not because it's a supernatural ability—because it's a ranged attack. In this case, you're making a CMB check, which is a type of attack, which does provoke an attack of opportunity. That too could and should be clarified in a FAQ or errata, but the main thing that needs to be cleared up is whether or not it's a melee or ranged attack, and if it's a ranged attack, what IS its range. The fact that it lets you PULL a target as well as push makes me think it's a ranged attack.


Raise Thread...

Just to add to the confusion, I see that there is no ruling as to which angles one can push someone or something with Hydraulic Push (only straight back?), and, of course, no ruling as to which directions one can push or pull someone or something with Surge. Can we have clarification on that? My low level druid uses Surge all the time!

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