Pre-Generated / Replay rules clarification and modification discussion


Pathfinder Society

1 to 50 of 80 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Grand Lodge 5/5

6 people marked this as a favorite.

Hi all. As part of my promise of trying to open the campaign back up to the playerbase for their input, and in following past track record of open beta here at Paizo, I want to do something similar with Pathfinder Society.

The following is a rules clarification and modification that I, the Venture-Captains, and some collaborators have developed over the past several days to try to make playing pre-generated characters available, and add risk and reward at the same time.

It should be noted, if you have a character of the correct tier as the scenario, you are not allowed to play a pre-generated character for credit. The rules are still in place that you only receive player credit once and GM credit once. These rules were drafted after looking at the current guide and the intent is to present additive text, keeping all other sections intact and in mind.

This discussion is open for one week of time for anyone interested to discuss pros and cons. After one week, this topic will be locked, the discussion here will be brought back to the Venture-Captain forum for any tweaks or adjustments that need to be made. When that is completed, the final ruling will be placed in the FAQ until such time as I can get the guide updated to 4.1. Keep in mind, per the current 4.0.1 Guide, that anything that appears in the FAQ is considered legal, as if it appeared in the guide.

This is your chance to have your voice heard and make a real change in Pathfinder Society. All I ask is that you keep the conversation civil. Afterall, it is still a game we all love and only want to see it made better.

Playing Pregens
Pathfinder Society provides several level appropriate pregenerated characters to help cover a variety of situations. Use of pregens higher than 1st level requires that you do not have a legal, tier appropriate character. In order to recognize and reward the player's time investment consider the following:

1st level pregens
When you play a 1st level pregen, you may always apply this Chronicle to a newly created character as though you had played a Tier 1 scenario.

4th level pregens
When you play a 4th level pregen, you may either apply this Chronicle as the next Chronicle after gaining 4th level to an existing 3rd level or lower character or apply this Chronicle to a newly created character as though you had played a Tier 1 scenario. The boons, gold, prestige and XP gained will be applied to your character automatically when you earn this Chronicle at level 4. If you chose to apply it to a newly created character the GP Gained will be reduced by the GM to 500 GP, and any boons, prestige and item access would be applied as normal.

7th level pregens
When you play a 7th level pregen, you may either apply this Chronicle as the next Chronicle after gaining 7th level to an existing 6th level or lower character or apply this Chronicle as Chronicle #1 to a newly created character as though you had played a Tier 1 scenario. The boons, gold, prestige and XP gained will be applied to your character automatically when you earn this Chronicle at level 7. If you chose to apply it to a newly created character the GP Gained will be reduced by the GM to 500 GP, and any boons, prestige and item access would be applied as normal.

Pregen death
While playing a pregenerated character higher than 1st level, the risk of death is still a serious concern. If you do not chose to convert the Chronicle to Chronicle #1 for a new character, you will have to resolve the death of the pregen before you can play beyond the Chronicle awarded. This means if you have a legal 5th level character, choose to play a 7th level pregen in a tier 7-11 scenario and are killed you would have to resolve that death before your 5th level character could claim the previously earned Chronicle upon reaching level 7.

Dark Archive

That sounds like a step in the right direction, a good comprimise.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I've already chimed in that trying to make a distinction based on whether the player has a level-appropriate character or not is a disastrous idea.

(For example, what if I have one, but it's back home and I'm at a convention? What if I have a copy of the HeroLab sheet, but none of the chronicles? By the rules of the Guide, I'm still not allowed to play that PC, but I certainly have one.)

Aside from that, it seems very fair.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Michael Brock wrote:
...or apply this Chronicle to a newly created character as though you had played a Tier 1 scenario. The boons, gold, prestige and XP gained will be applied to your character automatically when you earn this Chronicle at level 4. If you chose to apply it to a newly created character the GP Gained will be reduced by the GM to 500 GP, and any boons, prestige and item access would be applied as normal.

Hey, look! You can even get brand-spanking-new players to play in high level modules and let them apply that game to a new character.

Personally, this looks like quite the compromise.

However, Chris raises a valid point (once again).

Dark Archive

Chris Mortika wrote:

I've already chimed in that trying to make a distinction based on whether the player has a level-appropriate character or not is a disastrous idea.

(For example, what if I have one, but it's back home and I'm at a convention? What if I have a copy of the HeroLab sheet, but none of the chronicles? By the rules of the Guide, I'm still not allowed to play that PC, but I certainly have one.)

Aside from that, it seems very fair.

When it comes right down to it, I do not see how this would affect me and my experiance. How are you even going to know if they are who they claim they are, are we going to check state IDs against PFS numbers? Sometimes you just have to trust people are mature enough to be allowed some liberty.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Nimon, I'm not talking about people cheating.

Look, right now, I have a 7th-level Inquisitor PC. I attended a convention over the weekend, but didn't bring the PC. According to the proposal, I'd be treated differently than my friend who doesn't have such a PC back home.

Questions:

1) Let's say Brian and Ted play in a Tier 7-11 adventure, bringing 7th-level pre-gen Valeros and Merisiel along with the 10th-level and 11th-level PCs. Theose characters survive at the 10-11 subtier. When Ted's PC reaches 24 experience points, he assigns the experience to that character.

Does he get gold at the 7-8 subtier, or 10-11?

2) Am I correct in understanding that, since the pre-gen doesn't have a faction, Ted's newly-7th-level PC would increase fame by either 0 or 1 point, depending on the scenario?

3)Would the GM still report Brian and Ted as playing pre-gens at the table? (It would be hard to know which PC to apply that experience to, but you'd want a record that the players know about the scenario.)

4) No day-job roll, right?

One thing I like about this proposal is how it's similar to the rule for giving credit for modules.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

First:

Under the first heading ("Playing Pregens"), the phrase "tier appropriate" should be the hyphenated word "tier-appropriate". But maybe this wasn't supposed to be final text, so perhaps that doesn't matter. But I thought I'd mention it just in case.

Second:

Question about pregen death - if you play a higher-level pregen and it dies, can you simply forfeit the chronicle (i.e., never apply it to your character, thus gaining no XP, prestige, gold, etc) and continue your PC's career? Or does your PC's career grind to a halt if you're not able to raise the pregen?

Third:

Wouldn't it be simpler if there was just a blanket rule of "pregens don't count"? I.e., you don't get a chronicle for playing a pregen, but it also doesn't prevent you from earning a chronicle later on? Wouldn't that be simpler and clearer than "You can play a pregen if" rules and delayed-application chronicles and so on and so forth?

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Chris Mortika wrote:

Nimon, I'm not talking about people cheating.

Look, right now, I have a 7th-level Inquisitor PC. I attended a convention over the weekend, but didn't bring the PC. According to the proposal, I'd be treated differently than my friend who doesn't have such a PC back home.

You know what? After contemplation on this issue: because of the "death clause" I'm okay with you playing a pre-gen and getting a chronicle in this situation, as well.

If you forget your character and end up being able to play a module you haven't played, and are willing to risk dealing with a pre-gen, you should get the chronicle.

I'm going to read your other questions and reply to those after actually thinking about them.

5/5 Venture-Agent, Ohio—Cincinnati

I really like the Pre-Gen death rule. Maybe needs a sentence to give the ways to do it for DMs explaining ti to players but otherwise "I like it!".

The Exchange

I like it.
Especially I like being able to play the higher level pre-gens and apply to an existing character when they reach the appropriate level. This resolves the concern I was starting to feel over the new Raise Dead rules-which was, if someone's at a convention and signed up for higher level modules based on thinking their character would level up--then the character dies--they had no way to play for credit if they don't have enough PA/gold for raise dead and two restorations. However, this lets them play the modules they're signed up for, and apply to a brand new character. So they don't get cheated of their weekend. Nice!

Dark Archive

Chris Mortika wrote:
Some stuff

It should just be handled like credit for GMing, you dont need all those provisions for special situations you listed.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

Michael Brock wrote:
It should be noted, if you have a character of the correct tier as the scenario, you are not allowed to play a pre-generated character for credit.

Only thing I would want to consider deeper is whether or not it is important that that PC already has a credit applied, for GMing, for that scenario.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast aka heretic

At risk of showing my ignorance....if the pregen dies what exactly are the ramifications of pregen death?

Does the target character have to chosen at the start of the game?

Does resolution effectively mean the pregen being P.A.less must get raised at the table?

If the pregen doesn't get raised does that mean that the target PC must get the cash/PA together that would allow the pregen to be raised?

If so when is that required? Is it required that they have to do it before the XP is awarded that would permit the award of the chronicle?

What if they don't get the resources needed or if I am totally missing what resolved means here, simply put: if it ain't resolved what happens. Is it just that they cannot apply the chronicle? If not what other risk is the player running?

W

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Good questions, heretic.

So, here's a common situation. Doug, Bob, and Andy have 3rd-level PCs, and Yolanda plays a 4th-level pre-gen Ezren. During the adventure, Ezren dies and stays dead. So, when does Yolanda declare which character (new PC, her current 2nd-level sorcerer, or her current 4th-level summoner, which she didn't have with her) receives credit.

Let's say she doesn't have to decide until after the scenario is over. If she applies dead-Ezren credit to either of her current PCs, she'll have to pay some amount to get a raise dead and maybe two applications of restoration. Since the penalties for playing a pre-gen into the ground only apply if she's applying the credit to an already-existing character, she could just dump the experience, consider the credit to go "towards an unplayed character" and continue on, no harm no foul.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast aka heretic

Chris Mortika wrote:

Good questions, heretic.

So, here's a common situation. Doug, Bob, and Andy have 3rd-level PCs, and Yolanda plays a 4th-level pre-gen Ezren. During the adventure, Ezren dies and stays dead. So, when does Yolanda declare which character (new PC, her current 2nd-level sorcerer, or her current 4th-level summoner, which she didn't have with her) receives credit.

Let's say she doesn't have to decide until after the scenario is over. If she applies dead-Ezren credit to either of her current PCs, she'll have to pay some amount to get a raise dead and maybe two applications of restoration. Since the penalties for playing a pre-gen into the ground only apply if she's applying the credit to an already-existing character, she could just dump the experience, consider the credit to go "towards an unplayed character" and continue on, no harm no foul.

I know that it is pure speculation but if there is no penalty other than the chronicle not being applied when the target character gets to the required level for the chronicle award, then it makes little odds.

I mean if you apply it to an existing PC that never resolves the pregens sad demise (whatever resolved means here) and all that means that the chronicle is lost then there is no real cost or risk. Apply it to a new PC again what loss is there?

So as we are assured there is risk involved I guess there must be a case worse than not just getting the chronicle.....surely??

W

Sovereign Court

Chris Mortika wrote:

Good questions, heretic.

So, here's a common situation. Doug, Bob, and Andy have 3rd-level PCs, and Yolanda plays a 4th-level pre-gen Ezren. During the adventure, Ezren dies and stays dead. So, when does Yolanda declare which character (new PC, her current 2nd-level sorcerer, or her current 4th-level summoner, which she didn't have with her) receives credit.

Let's say she doesn't have to decide until after the scenario is over. If she applies dead-Ezren credit to either of her current PCs, she'll have to pay some amount to get a raise dead and maybe two applications of restoration. Since the penalties for playing a pre-gen into the ground only apply if she's applying the credit to an already-existing character, she could just dump the experience, consider the credit to go "towards an unplayed character" and continue on, no harm no foul.

This is precisely why the decision should be taken before the scenario starts.

I like this compromise. Very solid and doesn't seem to trump on anyone's toes, really.


PRE-GEN DEATH:

I would say for pre-gen death, the death must be applied first regardless of the level it is being applied to. If the player chooses to not apply the chronicle as a whole because they want to avoid applying the death, then the player loses the chronicle forever and cannot get credit for replaying it, as the standard rule is now.

New players of course need not worry under these rules since a new player will be level 1 and under the suggested "1st level pre-gens" ruling posted in the origonal post by Michael.

APPLYING PRE-GEN CREDIT:

I like the idea of just having it work like GM credit. The GM credit rule has been around and is easily understood and explainable by GMs to a player that wants to play a pre-gen in 4+ tiers. Players can apply the lowest tier gold and rewards to a character within tier level. No boons, no day job, full PA, full gold, and full exp.

This would make it like a free floating chronicle that you can apply to an existing level appropriate character, but it will always be at lowest tier and death has to be resolved first. "Character death" could even be written into the chronicle under the conditions gained section. That way future GMs know if they look at the players chronicles that the player is applying a pre-gen-death to a character and can check for resolution for applying the chronicle.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast aka heretic

Mortifier wrote:


PRE-GEN DEATH:

I would say for pre-gen death, the death must be applied first regardless of the level it is being applied to. If the player chooses to not apply the chronicle as a whole because they want to avoid applying the death, then the player loses the chronicle forever and cannot get credit for replaying it, as the standard rule is now.

New players of course need not worry under these rules since a new player will be level 1 and under the suggested "1st level pre-gens" ruling posted in the origonal post by Michael.

APPLYING PRE-GEN CREDIT:

I like the idea of just having it work like GM credit. The GM credit rule has been around and is easily understood and explainable by GMs to a player that wants to play a pre-gen in 4+ tiers. Players can apply the lowest tier gold and rewards to a character within tier level. No boons, no day job, full PA, full gold, and full exp.

This would make it like a free floating chronicle that you can apply to an existing level appropriate character, but it will always be at lowest tier and death has to be resolved first. "Character death" could even be written into the chronicle under the conditions gained section. That way future GMs know if they look at the players chronicles that the player is applying a pre-gen-death to a character and can check for resolution for applying the chronicle.

The rules re PA, gold etc. for GMs makes sense as they did not actually play. The loss of boons and day job checks being a balancing factor. How a faction less pregen gets PA I don't know. For someone using an existing PC as the target character I guess the pregen is treated in the same faction. When the target is a new 1st level PC I guess a faction would need to be chosen? I would not favour full gold or PA when the player has had the chance to earn it with a pregen but didn't quite manage it.

The important thing is that playing a pregen offers reward it must also carry risk.

Obviously all this is only relevant if you don't have an eligible PC of your own.

I am reading it right that the reward is that once the target PC hits the min lvl needed for the chronicle to be applied, the chronicle is in fact applied.

The risk is that if the pregen is (for lack of a better way to say it) still dead when the chronicle is due to be applied, the chronicle is lost without option to replay for credit

This deals with fear that ppl would scout a mod so they could replay it later for credit with a real PC. If you play it with a pregen you are gambling your only chance for player credit.

Is there though any further risk to the target PC resulting from the permanent death of the pregen?

If the pregen is dead when the table closes what must the target PC do in order to get the chronicle. And what happens if they don't or cannot?

W

W

Grand Lodge

Hi guys, great stuff so far. I've taken the point from a few of you (as well as a few of the Venture-Captains) that the 'resolved' part was a little less clear than intended. I'll be getting some additional streamlined language in the works on that.

The short answer, based on the intent is: What would you do with an unresolved PC death?

heretic wrote:
If the pregen is dead when the table closes what must the target PC do in order to get the chronicle. And what happens if they don't or cannot?

This is a great question, and as I mentioned above what the underlying intent is the same as with your PC. What would happen if you walked away from the table with a dead PC?

One idea that I really like though is letting the PC walk with a Chronicle that says they died as a pregen, then before they can actually apply it to whichever character the pregen is stand-in for, they have pay to have that character raised. Pregens should not be treated as consumable resources. You'd be able to continue playing your PC but only until that Chronicle entered your stack. Once it hits your stack you need to 'resolve' it. Weather that's by paying the gold, paying the PA, some combination of the two (remember Raise Dead and Restoration (x2)), or weather you decide to let your character die at that time are all valid ways to resolve the situation. Of course your table mates may want to chip in for this as well. From a role playing perspective it could be a very powerful vision of the future and your death, the role play value of that alone could be amazing. If you died sometime before that event, well then I guess it wouldn't matter :)

Of course the player also has the option of cashing the Chronicle out (for 500 gp or 250 gp on slow advancement) if they died (assuming they meet the requirements for earning the Chronicle). This is another way to resolve the situation.

PA earned would be reported against the faction of the stand-in character.

The Campaign Leadership and Venture-Captains are going to be intentionally mute in this thread to see what questions and solutions this conversation sparks. We will be reading with great interest however, and it sounds like the theme and the intent of this is sitting well with those who have responded thus far. Thank you!

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Hi, Mark.

While I appreciate the hands-off tone you want to keep, I'd ask you to quickly clarify something for me. I don't understand the following paragraph at all.

Mark Garringer wrote:
Of course the player also has the option of cashing the Chronicle out (for 500 gp or 250 gp on slow advancement) if they died (assuming they meet the requirements for earning the Chronicle). This is another way to resolve the situation.

I've never heard of "cashing out a Chronicle".

---

Generally speaking, the pre-generated charactes for Pathfinder Society are not designed to be optimally built. They're designed to be simple to understand and to represent the kinds of characters who go on missions for the Pathfinder Society.

They are, in fact, a little weaker than you'd expect. That's good, because we want to encourage players to be happy with the characters they build. (7th-level Ezren has only one additional spell in his spellbook of 2nd or 3rd level? I thought that breadth of spell selection was the advantage wizards have over sorcerers.) (7th-level Merisiel has a Constitution of 12? Kyra's got three channelling feats but a Charisma of 14?)

I haven't ever played a gunslinger PC, but people who have, have criticized the gunslinger pre-gen. "Extra grit?" they scoff. "What's she need extra grit for?" Everyone thinks there are important optimizing feats she should have taken, instead.

Even if it were built to the strength of other equal-level PCs, a pre-gen is much harder to play, because (a) you've never seen it before, and (b) it's presented as a stat block, instead of a character sheet. Quick: what's the DC to save against 7th-level Ezren's lightning bolt? What are the attack and damage bonuses if 4th-level Valeros holds his longsword in two hands? If 7th-level Ezren loses his headband of vast intelligence, which skill ranks does he lose?

---

I appreciate the "no gain without risk" policy. It's been a hallmark of the PFS campaign. But how about the risk being "lose player access to the chronicle" rather than "force the player's real character to pay for a raise dead and two restorations on top of any she might need herself"?

The intent is to get players to sit down at a table with a pre-gen and play. If we casually note "You're playing a weak, unfamiliar character. Even if we're playing in an 8-9 or 10-11 sub-tier, you're playing at 7th level. And if that character dies, it carries the same penalties as if your regular PC dies." Who says, "yay, sign me up"?

---

Incidentally, Mark:

Mark wrote:
What would happen if you walked away from the table with a dead PC?

You would start a fresh PC. There aren't any other options.

---

I am trying not to come across as strident. If I've failed, I apologize.

Grand Lodge

Chris Mortika wrote:
Mark Garringer wrote:
Of course the player also has the option of cashing the Chronicle out (for 500 gp or 250 gp on slow advancement) if they died (assuming they meet the requirements for earning the Chronicle). This is another way to resolve the situation.

I've never heard of "cashing out a Chronicle".

In this context 'cashing out' means taking the Chronicle for a level 1 character at a lower gold payout instead of holding it and waiting to apply to an eligible 4th or 7th level character.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast aka heretic

Mark Garringer wrote:


heretic wrote:
If the pregen is dead when the table closes what must the target PC do in order to get the chronicle. And what happens if they don't or cannot?

Of course the player also has the option of cashing the Chronicle out (for 500 gp or 250 gp on slow advancement) if they died (assuming they meet the requirements for earning the Chronicle). This is another way to resolve the situation.

If you die at the table then AFAIK you stay dead, surely. I would say that if you want the chron to apply to a specific character you cannot change that target just because the pregen buys the farm.

I get that the pregen is probably the gimpiest gimp at the table and if you reckon that means it's not worth the risk to your existing character then opt to target the new first leveller.

W

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

I have to say that I'm nowhere near as concerned as some of the other posters about people "scouting" scenarios. To me the fun of Pathfinder Society is in the exploration and adventure. You don't "win" Pathfinder, you succeed. I don't want to know what's coming up. The same kind of person who will scout a scenario will roll tiny dice behind a pile of books that miraculously always come up 18 or simply buy the scenario ahead of time. I'm against making things difficult for everyone to try to stop a few cheaters. All you can do with someone with that "winning" personality is avoid playing with him or her.

I understand that some people will occasionally play pregens in a scenario that they haven't played. Last weekend at our FLGS, all the tables were full except the 7-11. I mean that literally, every table was in use, we couldn't split off smaller groups. One guy wanted to play, but didn't have a 7-11 and hadn't played this 7-11 yet (he has a 12). There are situations where a pregen is appropriate.

So my credit proposal:

Quote:
You may only play a pregen when you do not have a character of appropriate level. You may only receive credit if you have not played the scenario before. When the tracking sheet comes around at the beginning of the session, you declare what character you are applying credit to. You also choose the faction appropriate to that character. You receive money and items at the lowest tier. No boons are awarded. Cost of consumables used is deducted from money gained. Just like GM credit, the chronicle is applied as soon as you hit the appropriate level INCLUDING any effects not cleared (such as death).

Pros: Streamlines rules and avoids yet another unique process. Basically this treats playing a pregen like GMing, but with less advantages (don't automatically get full PA, may spend GP on items, and might have negative conditions carry over). The intent of pregens is to allow people to play and have fun in situations where they normally would not be able to, and I think this does that without giving them an advantage.

Cons: People can cheat and "forget" to apply a particularly heinous chronicle (ends with the pregen getting disintegrated, for example). See above. If people are going to cheat, they're going to cheat.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

It's obvious that you've given this a lot of consideration, Belafon.

Belafon wrote:
You may only play a pregen when you do not have a character of appropriate level.

1) I've already expressed my concerns about "having" a character of appropriate level. Given everything else in the proposal, I honestly don't see what good that limitation is inteded to serve.

2) Other people have sugested that a player cannot play a pre-gen for credit if she already has a PC of the correct level. This is the first time I've seen a suggestion that we restrict playing pre-gens entirely, whether for credit or not.

Belafon wrote:
You may only receive credit if you have not played the scenario before.

That makes sense.

Belafon wrote:
When the tracking sheet comes around at the beginning of the session, you declare what character you are applying credit to. You also choose the faction appropriate to that character.

And if someone has never played before, she gets a PFS number, and puts down #####-01. She immediately chooses a faction for that hypothetical character, too? (Frankly, I'm just fine with pre-gens not having factions; it's already hard enough to play them.)

Belafon wrote:
You receive money and items at the lowest tier. No boons are awarded. Cost of consumables used is deducted from money gained. Just like GM credit, the chronicle is applied as soon as you hit the appropriate level INCLUDING any effects not cleared (such as death).

So, let's say I play a Tier 1-5 scenario in the high sub-tier with a 4th-level PC. When the character hits 4th level, he receives money at subtier 1-2, minus the cost of consumables used? So, if 4th-level Lirianne fires 15 shots and drinks a potion of cat's graceduring an adventure, the PC will get about 50 gold?

It's possible, if, say, the gunslinger's pistol was damaged, that the player receiving the chronicle could end up in the hole. Can he record a negative gold amount, or does he need to sell his own equipment at half price until he has enough to pay for the gunslinger's weapon?

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

I guess I should start off by making clear that I was not yet suggesting actual language for the guide, just a general "theory of operation." Also, I was specifically concerned with people playing pregens higher than level 1.

Chris Mortika wrote:


Belafon wrote:
You may only play a pregen when you do not have a character of appropriate level.

1) I've already expressed my concerns about "having" a character of appropriate level. Given everything else in the proposal, I honestly don't see what good that limitation is inteded to serve.

2) Other people have sugested that a player cannot play a pre-gen for credit if she already has a PC of the correct level. This is the first time I've seen a suggestion that we restrict playing pre-gens entirely, whether for credit or not.

Sorry, I could have been clearer on that. This was my proposal for earning credit only. I am 100% fine with people replaying a scenario with a pregen for no credit to fill out a table.

Quote:
Quote:
When the tracking sheet comes around at the beginning of the session, you declare what character you are applying credit to. You also choose the faction appropriate to that character.
And if someone has never played before, she gets a PFS number, and puts down #####-01. She immediately chooses a faction for that hypothetical character, too? (Frankly, I'm just fine with pre-gens not having factions; it's already hard enough to play them.)

Yep. If necessary, add language about how a brand new player gets credit for that scenario. The only situation a level 1 pregen should be necessary is if a player doesn't have a created 1st level ready to go.

Quote:
Quote:
You receive money and items at the lowest tier. No boons are awarded. Cost of consumables used is deducted from money gained. Just like GM credit, the chronicle is applied as soon as you hit the appropriate level INCLUDING any effects not cleared (such as death).
So, let's say I play a Tier 1-5 scenario in the high sub-tier with a 4th-level PC. When the character hits 4th level, he receives money at subtier 1-2, minus the cost of consumables used? So, if 4th-level Lirianne fires 15 shots and drinks a potion of cat's graceduring an adventure, the PC will get about 50 gold?

No and Yes. Assuming you mean a 4th level pregen, the only situation a player should be using this in is when they have no characters from levels 1-5. He would receive a tier 1-2 chronicle which would immediately be applied to a new character. As to the money, I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but assuming your math is right, yes. One of the big problems with pregens is the "free money" syndrome. Especially with the level 7s, I have heard this: "Don't worry about dying. I'll just sell all her equipment and buy raise deads at the end if we need to." That's an extreme example, but everyone tends to be far more profligate with pregen resources knowing there's no downside.

As an aside, I would definitely be in favor of having the player use the level one version of the pregen in your example. Upon reflection I think language specific to the level ones should be added. There's no reason a new character shouldn't get boons since they would only be played when a player did not have time to create a character or in the far more common scenario of a brand new player being introduced to PFS.

Scarab Sages

I like what is proposed.

Part of me would like to see players without a tier appropriate PC be able to play a pregen and then "tier it down" to be able to apply it to a lower level character, but I recognize some inherent problems with that.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I don't play pregens myself and would prefer to miss a game or GM if I didnt have a character of appropriate level, but I'd say the following:

Why can't I assign the chronicle to a character of any other level using the same wealth guidelines as in the full modules? Why must it be a 1st level character? We already do this in the modules so there is precedent for doing it.

It can be easily abused. If my 1st level fighter gets a chronicle for a 7th level pregen playing tier 10-11 that means she'll have access to +2 or +3 weapons far earlier than anyone else of equivalent level and the character can be designed around the type of weapon you know you have access to. This almost makes it worth playing a pregen to get that kick start. The PA limit is almost always a bigger handicap than available gold but chronicle access bypasses it.

How should retired characters be treated and is there anything to stop a retired character coming back after a pregen was played at that level?

The text about dropping to 500gp is also confusing. Do I get the chronicle and cash immediately, or only when hitting 7th level? If when hitting 7th why would I only get 500gp? My comment about +2 weapons above assumes I get it immediately as I'm assuming that was the intent..

Liberty's Edge 2/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

The proposed rule changes are good in my book.

Previously, I've just been giving them a chronicle to the player who used a pre-gen to apply once their character reaches the level of their pre-gen (with notation on the chronicle). Now this gives a way to apply it immediately, and indicates what happens if their pre-gen dies.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I would be fine with the following:

1st level Pregens - You can use this credit for a new PFS character. Your number must be provided for reporting purposes.

4th and 7th level pregens can be played but you will not get credit or a chronicle for the game. You may play it later with a registered PFS character for credit and a chronicle.

End of story. No big benefit but no risk for a player who wants to round out a group with a 4th or 7th level pre-gen. I doubt many people would play a scenario first with a pre-gen, absorb secret info, and then play it again with another character. It may happen, but let's not pick on that sad individual with no life. From my experience as a GM, I have had a few players who didn't realize that they already played the scenario until the second encounter, so I doubt most people will remember all the details.

I support any idea because it really has zero impact on me and has never been an issue at our local venues or cons. Whatever the rule, keep it simple.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

edwardcd wrote:

The proposed rule changes are good in my book.

Previously, I've just been giving them a chronicle to the player who used a pre-gen to apply once their character reaches the level of their pre-gen (with notation on the chronicle). Now this gives a way to apply it immediately, and indicates what happens if their pre-gen dies.

So people are aware, this was not actually allowed in PFS. I am assuming you decided to do this despite that?

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast aka heretic

I am not at this point ready ti try and type up my version of how the rules should look.

I will throw these ideas for comment if I may.

You may at the GMs discretion use a pregen to replay a scenario that you have already gained player credit for. No risk or reward is attached.

Playing pregens before player credit is awarded:

If you have a level appropriate PFS character or characters and have never played the mod you must play one of those characters.
If you have neither played the mod nor have a level appropriate character and want to play in that mod you may choose one of the pregens.

Where the tier requires a lvl 1 pregen apply business as usual. The player creates a new PFS number i.e. Xxxxx-x and it is used for reporting and the player then creates their own new level 1 PC. Efforts should be made to encourage picking a faction so that PA can we awarded.

For other tiers where lvl 4/7 pregens are used
Then the player specifies a "Target PC".
That PC must either be one eligible to play in a tier 1 mod (i.e. Never been played) or is an existing PFS character of a lower level. The faction of the Target PC will be used for the Pregen.

The player must give the GM the PFS number of the target PC AND if it is an existing PC either show the character sheet or specify name, class and level before the game starts and that choice cannot be changed except in Exceptional circumstances. Such exceptions would be where a genuine admin error has been made. E.g. The player wanted it to be applied to their 3rd level cleric but entered the wrong final digit of their PFS number. Once the target character is chosen it may not be changed.

If the mod is finished successfully when the target PC is a new lvl 1 then the chron is applied in the 500 gp version Michael mentions. if it is finished successfully with any other target PC the player holds the chronicle until the target PC is eligible to be awarded it.

Pregen Death.
The intention of this system is to make the risk/rewards apply as closely as they would if the target PC had played the module.
If the target PC was a new first level P.C. Then the death is reported as normal. The Xxxx-x PFS number for the poor dead character is reported and the player can not ever replay for player credit.
If the target P.C. is an existing PFS character the chronicle is still applied at the appropriate time. That time is when the X.P. is added that would allow the chronicle to be applied legally.

At that point the target PC gains the dead condition and must resolve that. The player can opt to use PA and or cash. She can seek aid from other players just as if the character had died under more usual circumstances.

GM credit is treated as irrelevant for our purposes here.

Hope this opus ain't too magnum

Thoughts?

Liberty's Edge 2/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Dragnmoon wrote:
edwardcd wrote:

The proposed rule changes are good in my book.

Previously, I've just been giving them a chronicle to the player who used a pre-gen to apply once their character reaches the level of their pre-gen (with notation on the chronicle). Now this gives a way to apply it immediately, and indicates what happens if their pre-gen dies.

So people are aware, this was not actually allowed in PFS. I am assuming you decided to do this despite that?

I've only done it this way since GenCon where a Venture Captain said to use this procedure. Also, it may be good to state that all the games I have hosted outside GenCon, I have yet to award a chronicle for a character in this manner.

Grand Lodge Venture-Agent, Texas—Mansfield aka sieylianna

I have yet to see anything except a level 1 pre-gen used at a table, but if there is an issue at other venues, this sounds like a workable fix.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

edwardcd wrote:
I've only done it this way since GenCon where a Venture Captain said to use this procedure. Also, it may be good to state that all the games I have hosted outside GenCon, I have yet to award a chronicle for a character in this manner.

Since the new rules are leaning that way, no bad foul. Though it is sad that a Venture-Captain led you astray on a PFS rule, though even a V-C ruling should be vetted against what is in the Guide since this is not even implied in it. It could have been you got confused what he said with 1st Level pre-gens applying with 4th and 7th Level Pre-gens.

Only playing 1st Level Pre-Gens got you Chronicle sheets new PCs on scenarios you never played.

Back on Subject.

I like the Rule, Though I agree with a few others it needs to be made clearer.

Also I don't agree with Chris, I like that it restricts it to only being allowed if you don't have a PC of legal Level.

Chris the majority of your reasons are due to being un-prepared, which is not a good excuse. That is not a problem with the Rule, that is a Problem with the player. And a few of those can be worked around in other ways that would not force them to play a Pre-Gen.


Michael Brock wrote:

Hi all. As part of my promise of trying to open the campaign back up to the playerbase for their input, and in following past track record of open beta here at Paizo, I want to do something similar with Pathfinder Society.

First, I really like that you are trying to make this transparent. I think that it enriches the game for you to do so.

Second, I'd ask if you could delineate what the rule is intended to allow and to curtail. This is helpful in two main ways: it lets us discuss how successful the current proposal is towards that, and it lets everyone know the rules as they were intended to be.

For example:
1. Why do we have pre-gens available? What are they supposed to provide to PFS?
2. What situations do we want to avoid with the inclusion of Pre-gens in PFS?

Lastly, given the above goals (whatever they might entail) is there a more simple way to accomplish them? The easier the rules are the better they are for the game (for the most part).

-James

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Dave the Barbarian wrote:

I would be fine with the following:

1st level Pregens - You can use this credit for a new PFS character. Your number must be provided for reporting purposes.

4th and 7th level pregens can be played but you will not get credit or a chronicle for the game. You may play it later with a registered PFS character for credit and a chronicle.

End of story.

This. I appreciate the generosity of allowing a player to get credit for a session played with a pregen, but is it really worth the extra rules and regulations? Please, let's just keep it simple.

sieylianna wrote:
I have yet to see anything except a level 1 pre-gen used at a table, but if there is an issue at other venues, this sounds like a workable fix.

I've seen a non-level-1 pregen used locally exactly once. A friend of mine showed up because I was playing, our wives were hanging out, and he had nothing else to do. With a subtier 4-5 table being the only one with room, he played a level 4 pregen. He was given a chronicle at the end, but only got the goodies for subtier 1-2 instead of 4-5 like everyone else, and was told he could apply it to a new character.

But even without getting a chronicle, he still would have played and enjoyed it, and later made a new character.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Dragnmoon wrote:


Chris the majority of your reasons are due to being un-prepared, which is not a good excuse. That is not a problem with the Rule, that is a Problem with the player. And a few of those can be worked around in other ways that would not force them to play a Pre-Gen.

P'shaw, I say to you, sir. P'shaw!

Being serious for a moment: at conventions, people's PCs sometimes die. Or someone comes into a session thinking that he's going to be playing a Tier 3-9 scenario, but there weren't enough players or the GM didn't show up, so he's being moved to a Tier 1-5. You can't predict with 100% certainty what adventures you're going to play, and with which characters.

So let's say that person who's been shunted into the Tier 1-5 adventure has a 1st-level PC back at home (he's playing through the "First Steps" series) but he didn't think to bring it to the con.

You're saying that it's his fault for being unprepared. That he should always bring all his non-retired PCs (with all the Chronicle sheets, and all the non-core books each one might need to reference) whenever he goes somewhere to play PFS. That's hard-core, dude.

I'll ask a direct question, because maybe there's a good answer that I just can't see: If you have a level-appropriate character that you simply don't want to use in the scenario -- maybe the XP will force the PC out of tier for some other scenario, or maybe the PC doesn't fit the scenario or the rest of the party -- what harm is there in letting you play a pre-gen?

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Chris Mortika wrote:

You're saying that it's his fault for being unprepared. That he should always bring all his non-retired PCs (with all the Chronicle sheets, and all the non-core books each one might need to reference) whenever he goes somewhere to play PFS. That's hard-core, dude.

I will talk to the other part later.. this I will talk to now..

Yes.. Why would he not? That should be common practice for every player.

It is not a Hard thing to do and a good practice.

I don't understand why anyone would think otherwise.

Scarab Sages

Dragnmoon wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:

You're saying that it's his fault for being unprepared. That he should always bring all his non-retired PCs (with all the Chronicle sheets, and all the non-core books each one might need to reference) whenever he goes somewhere to play PFS. That's hard-core, dude.

I will talk to the other part later.. this I will talk to now..

Yes.. Why would he not? That should be common practice for every player.

It is not a Hard thing to do and a good practice.

I don't understand why anyone would think otherwise.

While I would have a hard time making this a rule or anything formal, I do have to admit that any gamer who goes to a convention without all their characters is.... well.... ah.... I really do not have the words.

My characters are the one thing I can not go without. Everything else can be found in a dire emergency, pens, dice, minis. But the character sheets and chronicles are priority number one.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast aka heretic

Dave the Barbarian wrote:

I would be fine with the following:

1st level Pregens - You can use this credit for a new PFS character. Your number must be provided for reporting purposes.

4th and 7th level pregens can be played but you will not get credit or a chronicle for the game. You may play it later with a registered PFS character for credit and a chronicle.

End of story. No big benefit but no risk for a player who wants to round out a group with a 4th or 7th level pre-gen. I doubt many people would play a scenario first with a pre-gen, absorb secret info, and then play it again with another character. It may happen, but let's not pick on that sad individual with no life. From my experience as a GM, I have had a few players who didn't realize that they already played the scenario until the second encounter, so I doubt most people will remember all the details.

I support any idea because it really has zero impact on me and has never been an issue at our local venues or cons. Whatever the rule, keep it simple.

This was pretty much how many of us were handling it. In the thread before the thread before this one it turned out that officially if you play a lvl 4/7 pregen you effectively eat the mod, i.e. No replay for credit.

Several ppl agreed with this because they saw replay for GMs as a necessary evil but allowing a Player to get to play a mod with a pregen thus giving them an edge when the did play for credit....was not necessary at all.

So Michael has taken the step of suggesting a way that allows someone to play a pregen without requiring or even permitting replay for credit.

I would happily settle for what you suggest but I feel Michael's idea has real legs.

The thing that I am focusing on is how to ensure that there is no legalised temptation to take a pregen into a tough mod with the view to applying the chron to a particular target PC but then changing the target to another if things go bad.

A few other keen observations have been made too.

I would not require consumables to be paid for the less than optimal builds I think account for any benefit having 'free' potions or wand charges

The question of what if you end up with the option of either not playing or playing a PC that is in the middle of a multi parter and so would level out of tier is a problem. I would not have considered allowing a lvl 4/7 pregen for this before but I do see the problem. I can even see a scenario where after a gm cries off the only prepped scenario ends up with players all of whom only have e.g. Bards of the right level.

Would it be worth considering allowing a pregen to be used even if there is a suitable PC but the chron must applied to new character?

No single solution will be perfect but as long as the ramifications of pregen death are clarified I think we will end up with better rules on this matter than we had last week.
W

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Joko PO wrote:


While I would have a hard time making this a rule or anything formal, I do have to admit that any gamer who goes to a convention without all their characters is.... well.... ah.... I really do not have the words.

Joko, I attended a store-sponsored game day a week and a half ago. I was scheduled to run one game, and play my 3rd-level cleric in another. Why do you find it incredible that I didn't also bring the binders where I keep my 10th-level summoner, 6th-level inquisitor, 5th-level paladin, and 1st-level fighter -- and all the equipment I need to play them?

When I GM, I expect a player to come to my table with everything she needs to play her PC: character sheet, chronicles, a mini, all the appropriate non-core books. And dice, paper, and a writing tool. If she has five other characters she isn't planning to play, I don't expect her to bring all that she would need for each of those, as well.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Chris Mortika wrote:
Why do you find it incredible that I didn't also bring the binders where I keep my 10th-level summoner, 6th-level inquisitor, 5th-level paladin, and 1st-level fighter -- and all the equipment I need to play them?

Because you give examples of situations where this rule would not be a problem if you did bring all those characters.

I have 6 Characters, I bring them all to every game and they all fit in 1 Binder.

Easy fix at the player level.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

On Pre-Gens and why I think we should stick to the rule of not allowing credit for playing one if you have a Legal PC.

I see Pregens for as meant for a few reasons.

Do not have a PC

Do not have a PC at the correct level

For GM play to make a legal table

For Player replay for no credit

What I don't see them for and I don't think they are meant for is for a player to use them instead of a Legal PC they have. They are not meant as a replacement of a Legal PC but as a supplement to when you don't have a Legal PC.

The preferred method is for the Player to play there own PC in PFS play, and minus that play a Pre-Gen if they don't have one. I don't see having one, but not having it with you as an excuse to get around that. It is something easy to avoid and should not be encouraged.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

Chris Mortika wrote:
Joko PO wrote:


While I would have a hard time making this a rule or anything formal, I do have to admit that any gamer who goes to a convention without all their characters is.... well.... ah.... I really do not have the words.

Joko, I attended a store-sponsored game day a week and a half ago. I was scheduled to run one game, and play my 3rd-level cleric in another. Why do you find it incredible that I didn't also bring the binders where I keep my 10th-level summoner, 6th-level inquisitor, 5th-level paladin, and 1st-level fighter -- and all the equipment I need to play them?

When I GM, I expect a player to come to my table with everything she needs to play her PC: character sheet, chronicles, a mini, all the appropriate non-core books. And dice, paper, and a writing tool. If she has five other characters she isn't planning to play, I don't expect her to bring all that she would need for each of those, as well.

And your point is?

If you don't bring a character with you, don't expect to play that character. And don't expect to be able to do anything to benefit that character.

If you have a charcater at level for a game, but decide, for some reason, not to play it, don't expect to get credit for that character at that game.

I had to give up playing my primary PFS PC for some time, as I had played the first two parts of a three parter, and reached a point where one more XP would level him out of range for that final part.

I wound up joining lower level tables with other characters, untilI finally had a chance to get a group of players together, and run the three parter for them.

Of course, it now means that I have a new PC waiting for part three, but he has quite a ways left to go before he would level out of range for that series. And I have a third PC who is just about to break into that level band...

10th level archer (played parts 1 & 2, GM credit for part 3)
7th level tripper (GM credit for parts 1 & 2, waiting to play part 3, but it is a tier 5-9 module, so plenty of time left)
4th level gunslinger (soon to become 5th level)
2nd level Lore Warden
2nd level Rogue (prebuilt to 2nd, waiting for the actual GM credits to become real, but I don't think the games will be an issue)
1st level PCs galore.

Other than riding the bus, I usually have all my character stuff with me. When riding the bus, I was still able to bring along the 10th level, 7th level, 4th level and a 1st level PC, so I would have some flexibility at Game Day, in case we had too many no-shows to run the game scheduled.

To be honest, one of the things you need to bring with you, especially if you have played many scenarios, is a cheat sheet showing which scenarios you have already played, so you don't acidentally forget (Recent quote: ...He didn't remember he had played this scenario until the second combat encounter...) and replay a scenario accidentally.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.
I wrote:


When I GM, I expect a player to come to my table with everything she needs to play her PC: character sheet, chronicles, a mini, all the appropriate non-core books. And dice, paper, and a writing tool. If she has five other characters she isn't planning to play, I don't expect her to bring all that she would need for each of those, as well.
Then Callarek wrote:

And your point is?

If you don't bring a character with you, don't expect to play that character. And don't expect to be able to do anything to benefit that character.

If you have a charcater at level for a game, but decide, for some reason, not to play it, don't expect to get credit for that character at that game.

That all makes perfect sense. If you don't have the character sheet and all supplementary material, I don't think anyone in this thread is claiming that you have the right to play that character.

You write as if you disagree with me, but so far as I understand you, we're in agreement there.

I'm trying to avoid hypotheticals in this thread, so I keep coming back to my situation. I have a 1st-level PC that's dedicated to a PFS home game. My friend Ted's going to be running us through the First Steps series, and then a few more scenarios. So long as we're all playing that team together, I'm not going to bring that character to an in-store game day, nor to a convention.

But if I attend a convention in November, and it turns out that I can't play my higher-level inquisitor (say, the GM doesn't show up, but someone else is willing to run a low-tier adventure, and there are players with 4th- and 5th-level PCs) then what should it matter, that I have a 2nd-level character back home? Why not let me play a 4th-level pre-gen?

I'm not suggesting that I should be able to play the 2nd-level PC at the convention. I'm not insisting that I should be able to assign "pre-gen credit" to that character. What I am professing is that the 2nd-level PC back home shouldn't factor in to the situation.

One of my concerns has been the --hypothetical, now -- PFS PC that a player doesn't much want to play any more. I've run across a witch PC with a dead familiar and not enough money to get a replacement. Do you want a spellcaster who can't prepare spells at your table? Now imagine that PC at fifth level with four negative levels it can't afford to remove*. Are you going to tell the player that he has to kill off that PC at your table before he can play a pre-gen?

*:
Even that character's not hopeless. The player could play through a module and dedicate the rewards to that PC, which would give it enough money to remove the negative levels and replace the familiar. But until that happens, it's a pretty non-viable PC.

Another concern --not at all hypothetical-- has been the PC who has just now leveled up. She wants to take her next level as an Eagle Knight, but she doesn't have the Andoran book with her. (Substitute in any non-core element here: prestige class, base class, feat, spell.) She's not yet built that level, but she certainly has a 5th-level PC. Would you insist that she take her level in some core class, so that she can play it? Or would you allow her to sit at the next session with a pre-gen?

Here's another example: this past weekend, I spoke with a GM who thought that a particular scenario in Season 3 was too evil and law-breaking for a paladin. In his view, any paladin in the party would lose his powers, simply by accepting the Venture-Captain's assignment. If you were playing at that GM's table, through that scenario, you might not want to bring your paladin PC, but might rather decide to play a pre-gen.

Callarek, that's my point: it shouldn't matter if someone has a PC or not. Sometimes, there are good reasons not to play a particular character, and I'd like to see those players be able to sit at a table and enjoy themselves, the same as anyone else.

And I apologize for having stated that opinion, what, three times now? These boards are full of people who continually assert the same view, over and over, and I'd rather not be one of them. I've said my piece, and it doesn't seem to be making sense to anybody else.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Chris Mortika wrote:
Callarek, that's my point: it shouldn't matter if someone has a PC or not. Sometimes, there are good reasons not to play a particular character, and I'd like to see those players be able to sit at a table and enjoy themselves, the same as anyone else.

No there is Not, so far all I have seen are Mistakes, and chooses.

You choose not to play your character outside you PFS home game, that is not a problem with the rule. People choose not to be able to easily bring all there PCs, that is not a problem with the rule.

There are all this hypotheticals, but they all can be resolved in some way or another.

Pre gens should not be used in place of your own PC, that to me just goes against PFS.

All I see so far are chooses and mistakes not to play a PC, which should not allow you to play a Pre gen for credit.

Even the person who just leveled that day can be worked with. Does not take that long to level and the GM could allow them not to make hard choices for certain things until they go home, raise HPs and skills pick other stuff, but allow the other stuff to change when they go home. Or in this case since the PC just level that day, I would allow in calling that a non Legal PC for the next game since it has not "Officially" finished leveling.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Lets put it another way Chris...

I can't speak for Mike, and in the end he may decide differently.

But this rule is meant for those situations when a Player has no choice but to play a Pre-Gen, to allow them to get credit for that, so they don't lose out of it for their legal play.

It is not meant for a safety net for those players that choose not to play their Legal PCs or come to games not prepared.


Dragnmoon wrote:


But this rule is meant for those situations when a Player has no choice but to play a Pre-Gen, to allow them to get credit for that, so they don't lose out of it for their legal play.

It is not meant for a safety net for those players that choose not to play their Legal PCs or come to games not prepared.

Delineating exactly what the rule should and should not cover is something that I think would be very good for the campaign to do.

Then with that in mind we can evaluate what options there are for making easy rules to accomplish those goals.

Are the rules solely meant for the player that will employ the pregen, or for the rest of the table as well? To whit, is it to help tables be able to be played, or people to be able to play at tables?

Many times the act of writing out exactly what a rule should and should not address helps solidify what exactly it should be. You might believe 'I know exactly what this is supposed to cover and not cover' but until you go to write it out exactly it's easy to have missed some bases.

-James

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Seems like the main point of contention at the moment is whether or not someone should be able to simply choose to play a pregen; i.e., does not having your PC with you or simply not wanting to play it qualify as sufficient reason to play a pregen.

And I'm going to go back to what I said at the beginning of the thread and (if memory serves) one other person also said:

Jiggy wrote:
Wouldn't it be simpler if there was just a blanket rule of "pregens don't count"? I.e., you don't get a chronicle for playing a pregen, but it also doesn't prevent you from earning a chronicle later on? Wouldn't that be simpler and clearer than "You can play a pregen if" rules and delayed-application chronicles and so on and so forth?

See, if we go back to that, then the argument currently raging on and on becomes a moot point: if you don't want to play a real PC, you're not getting a chronicle. If you want a chronicle, play a real PC. If we go with that, then do we really even have an issue of whether or not to allow someone with a legal PC to play a pregen? I mean, it sounds (and forgive me if I'm getting this wrong) like the concern for "abuse" with letting someone choose to play a pregen is that they'll earn themselves a chronicle using the pregen and apply it to their real PC risk-free. Well, if pregens don't earn chronicles, that issue disappears completely.

As I understand it, this is how it is already (with the 1st-level exception for a brand-new character, of course). Why are we even looking at changing it in the first place?

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Jiggy wrote:
As I understand it, this is how it is already (with the 1st-level exception for a brand-new character, of course). Why are we even looking at changing it in the first place?

That is how many people do it, but it is not how Mike wants it done.

Last week he posted that you can't replay for credit a scenario even if the first time you play it you play it with a Pre-Gen.

I agree that is the simplest way of doing this, and would take the least amount of editing of the rules, but from what I gather that is not what Mike wants to do.

1 to 50 of 80 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / Pre-Generated / Replay rules clarification and modification discussion All Messageboards