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As I understand it, this is how it is already (with the 1st-level exception for a brand-new character, of course). Why are we even looking at changing it in the first place?
Because a new player to PFS may play a pre-gen because that is the only spot open at a convention. He plays the module, enjoys the campaign, but we're telling him that he can never get credit for that module. It's not a good way to start a relationship.
Even an experienced player who doesn't have a character of the proper level is stuck under this scenario. I can play a pre-gen to help you fill a table, but I can never get credit for the module, or I can visit the dealer's room and the rest of you may not be able to pull together a legal table. Sucks to be you.
Although Play, Play, Play has been dumped, I still don't think the campaign wants to be in the position of discouraging PFS play.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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As I understand it, this is how it is already (with the 1st-level exception for a brand-new character, of course). Why are we even looking at changing it in the first place?Because a new player to PFS may play a pre-gen because that is the only spot open at a convention. He plays the module, enjoys the campaign, but we're telling him that he can never get credit for that module. It's not a good way to start a relationship.
No, that's the way Mike started to change it to be. Originally (and how I think it should stay) is that if a new player finds himself playing a high-level pregen he doesn't get a chronicle for that session, but if he plays it again later with a real PC he can get credit for it then. Like I said earlier, having pregens "not count" - not getting you a chronicle, but also not preventing you from getting one later - is how it's been (prior to Mike's quickly-repealed tweak) and how I think it should stay.
That is how many people do it, but it is not how Mike wants it done.
Last week he posted that you can't replay for credit a scenario even if the first time you play it you play it with a Pre-Gen.
I agree that is the simplest way of doing this, and would take the least amount of editing of the rules, but from what I gather that is not what Mike wants to do.
Hence my posting in this thread - like everyone else, I'm campaigning to get Mike to make a certain decision (in my case, the decision to leave well enough alone and let level 4 and 7 pregens neither help nor hurt the players).
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Looks good, looks fair. The only part that might need some clarification is pregen death.
If a level 1 pregen dies, I assume I don't give the player a chronicle (unless the entire party helps pay for the Raise Dead spell)? Is that correct? I don't see the point of giving them a chronicle, except to prevent them from every playing the scenario again, but for low level scenarios, does it really matter? I don't think so.
If a level 4 or 7 pregen dies, I give them a chronicle, but I mark "died" somewhere on the chronicle and they can't use that chronicle until they pay for a Raise Dead spell (and remove other conditions they gained)? I'm guessing the player can't refuse the chronicle unless they don't have a player ID yet. Where should we mark "died" so that it's clear? Under conditions gained?
Also, when I report the event, I'm guessing we don't report unresolved dead pregens as "dead", otherwise it will cause other problems in the system when reporting other events, correct?
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Regarding not being able to play a scenario with a pregen if you have a viable PC to play. I don't think there's really any point to this rule, especially with the changes proposed by Michael. Under the proposed rules, if you're playing a 4th/7th level pregen, playing that pregen carries the same risk as playing your PC. If you die you still have to pay for Raise Dead (or the removal of other conditions). There's no way to cheat the system (except maybe at low levels where it doesn't really matter).
Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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Chris: I appreciate your point. Would permitting a player to use a pregen regardless of having a legal character if the chronicle must be applied to a new character make matters better?
I think the idea is that we are trying to restrict the circumstances where someone can replay and get credit regardless of wether they go credit the first time or not.. That is a reasonable goal and the scheme Michael is proposing goes some way to making it work better than his original ruling that if you play with a 4/7 pregen you eat the mod.
So adopting the basics of Michael's proposal but allowing free used of a 4/7 pregen as long as the chronicle goes to a new PC but prohibiting the use of a 4/7 pregen if there is a legal character and the chronicle is to be applied to anything other than a new P.C.?
W
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Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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That sounds fine to me, heretic.
For that matter, the following sounds fine to me, and is even simpler: If you play any pre-gen at a table, and it lives, you can apply the Chronicle sheet's boons and items found, and 1 XP and 500 gold, to a new or existing 1st-level PC.
That certainly has the virtue of simplicity though it would allow an existing lvl 1PC to get the chron means reward without risk. As with rules I general it is all about balance and in this case balancing risk and reward. Now I am guessing here but could be you don't see the risk of losing 1or 2 XP as being significant. So why not let someone play a pregen with no risk if it dies but still apply the reward to an existing PFS character. I am not sure about that though.
I would still like ppl whom have limited opportunity to play to have the option of risking an established character with a view to getting a chronicle via playing a pregen if they have no eligible PFS character. If they just want to apply it to a new PC then the only risk/ reward is that they cannot replay for credit but end up with a new PC with 1 XP, which seems a reasonable risk/reward outcome.
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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On Pre-Gens and why I think we should stick to the rule of not allowing credit for playing one if you have a Legal PC.
I see Pregens for as meant for a few reasons.
Do not have a PC
Do not have a PC at the correct level
For GM play to make a legal table
For Player replay for no credit
What I don't see them for and I don't think they are meant for is for a player to use them instead of a Legal PC they have. They are not meant as a replacement of a Legal PC but as a supplement to when you don't have a Legal PC.
The preferred method is for the Player to play there own PC in PFS play, and minus that play a Pre-Gen if they don't have one. I don't see having one, but not having it with you as an excuse to get around that. It is something easy to avoid and should not be encouraged.
This has always been my understanding too. Wait, did I just agree with DragnMoon? The world is getting smaller all the time. I like the new rules in regards to receiving a Chronicle though... it means that IF any of the above occurs, the player is no longer "robbed" of his opportunity for receiving that Chronicle.
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Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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So depending on how it satisfies #2 this could be a good solution. I might say that you could debate how you wish to differ what the PC would get vs what they would get from DM credit, but that's more minor than anything,James
James
On this matter I think we do diverge. GM replay is a necessary evil. It is an exception to the usual rule in all RPGs from year dot that you don't play when you know the module.
We allow GM replay for credit for specific reasons which were hashed out some time ago.
That doesn't mean that we can extrapolate that replay and especially replay for credit is generally acceptable or desirable.
The purpose of the these rules is to allow players to step in to a table with a pregen to make it legal. Or to allow someone to get seated where fate has conspired to leave them with no PC of the right level. BUT to do so without either putting the player in the situation where they eat the mod or are able to replay for credit.
Forcing someone to use a legit PC is all circumstances is harsh as has been pointed out. It is easily worked around by only requiring it if the chron is to be applied to an existing PC. Otherwise using a pregen should result in the chron going to a new PC as that balances risk and reward.
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Otherwise using a pregen should result in the chron going to a new PC as that balances risk and reward.
Or... should simply not result in anything? I keep bringing this up because it's the simplest solution, and everyone ignores it. No one's addressed it or shown why it's a bad idea, they just keep talking as though the few of us suggesting this hadn't said a word. The only response given at all was "but that's not what Mike is wanting", but isn't the whole point of this thread that he's willing to change his mind to come up with the best solution?
So if there's something wrong with the "Pregens don't earn chronicles but don't eat the mod either" then could someone at least do me (and one or two others) the courtesy of saying so?
To go back to the three points mentioned by James earlier:
1. The rule is simple. - This is as simple as it gets. Even with the exception of letting a level 1 pregen earn a chronicle for a brand-new PC, this is still the simplest solution in this entire thread.
2. The rule addresses the issues that it is meant to handle. - Near as I can tell, the "issues that it is meant to handle" would be the possibility of abuse. If you don't get a chronicle, there's not much room for abuse, is there?
3. The rule integrates with the rest of the rules in a sensible way. - This integrates better than anything else that I've seen suggested; not only is it already the existing rule, but it fits just fine with the "one and one" rule.
So could someone please explain to me why "let's actually not change anything" doesn't seem to be an option on the table?
Sorry for the rant, I just don't understand why people aren't even looking at this option. I'd be far less worked up if people had discussed it and found a reason to leave it behind, rather than (at least seemingly) ignoring it without so much as a passing thought.
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Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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Otherwise using a pregen should result in the chron going to a new PC as that balances risk and reward.Or... should simply not result in anything? I keep bringing this up because it's the simplest solution, and everyone ignores it. No one's addressed it or shown why it's a bad idea, they just keep talking as though the few of us suggesting this hadn't said
Jiggy,
Sorry if it seems that your opinion is being ignored. Actually the play 4/7 pregen and don't worry about the result policy has been talked to death on the previous two threads to this one. It was a clear rejection of this way of doing things that led to Michael's initial ruling and the the subsequent one that tops this thread.
The thing about it seems to be that far from it resulting in nothing it means either te player Is allows to replay the mod later for credit or if not is having to eat the mod
Again no offense meant and I kind of felt I addressed this in my to Dave the Barbarian. I hope this clarifies a little at least
W
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For that matter, the following sounds fine to me, and is even simpler: If you play any pre-gen at a table, and it lives, you can apply the Chronicle sheet's boons and items found, and 1 XP and 500 gold, to a new or existing 1st-level PC.
Bingo! We have a winner. This is the best idea yet, because it's simple, easy to understand and easy to implement.
I think this would also satisfy some players desire to skip the low levels of play (as opposed to using high level modules to do it).
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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As I understand it, this is how it is already (with the 1st-level exception for a brand-new character, of course). Why are we even looking at changing it in the first place?Because a new player to PFS may play a pre-gen because that is the only spot open at a convention. He plays the module, enjoys the campaign, but we're telling him that he can never get credit for that module. It's not a good way to start a relationship.
A player that's new to PFS should be playing at a level 1 tier table. In which case he would be able to apply a pre-gen credit to a new level1 character he makes later.
There has been no other network campaign in history that let a new player start their first game with anything but a level 1 character. Why should PFS be different?
Because there might be space limitations? As I already said upthread, a friend of mine showed up last-minute to a local PFS event because he had an afternoon to kill and heard I was there. The only spot for him was at a tier 4-5 table. Should we have sent him home instead of letting him play a level 4 pregen?
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A player that's new to PFS should be playing at a level 1 tier table. In which case he would be able to apply a pre-gen credit to a new level1 character he makes later.
There has been no other network campaign in history that let a new player start their first game with anything but a level 1 character. Why should PFS be different?
Not to be picky with you, I am assuming you mean 1st level of their own character.. But just in case..
PFS lets a new player start off with higher then 1st level character, but it is a Pre-Gen and they don't get credit for it.
I have seen many players for their first game play 4th or 7th level Pre-Gen.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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For that matter, the following sounds fine to me, and is even simpler: If you play any pre-gen at a table, and it lives, you can apply the Chronicle sheet's boons and items found, and 1 XP and 500 gold, to a new or existing 1st-level PC.Bingo! We have a winner. This is the best idea yet, because it's simple, easy to understand and easy to implement.
I think this would also satisfy some players desire to skip the low levels of play (as opposed to using high level modules to do it).
Though I still don't think it's necessary, I would find this satisfactory. I would maybe drop the "or existing" bit, only allowing the "generic" chronicle to go to a brand-new PC. That way you can't keep hitting mid- to high-level tables to get your guy to level 2 without risk.
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For that matter, the following sounds fine to me, and is even simpler: If you play any pre-gen at a table, and it lives, you can apply the Chronicle sheet's boons and items found, and 1 XP and 500 gold, to a new or existing 1st-level PC.
This still unlocks early access to items for the new or existing 1st level PC, which is a better deal than GM replay where your Chronicle is at your character's actual level. Granted, Chronicle access to items isn't really that useful right now... but buying a scroll of fireball or haste at level 1 (possible with a 7th level pre-gen in the right scenario and your 500gp reward) could break any Tier 1-2 mod in existence, and even many Tier 3-4/4-5's.). Given that fights tend to be a bit on the easy side in general anyway, this needs to be considered.
I'd rather not allow any item access for playing a pre-gen - you get +1XP, 500gp, and your prestige to a new or existing 1st-level character.
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I personally Like Jiggy's way, It is Simple, does not require a rewrite of the rules, only a FAQ clarification.
The only 2 points of contention I saw to this rule.
One was that people could take advantage of this by replaying a scenario multiple times for no credit to be able to learn the scenario so there is less risk once they play it with a legal PC, which is just ridicules. Also there is already a Rule in place that allows a GM to remove a player if they think they are doing such a thing.
The Other was how do you report Pre-Gen play, the current most used practice is you don't unless it is a 1st level PC, but those that do report Pre-Gen play, other then I don't understand how they do that since the reporting method does not support that, worry that once it is reported they can't get credit later on since Paizo Systems will show it as already played.
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For that matter, the following sounds fine to me, and is even simpler: If you play any pre-gen at a table, and it lives, you can apply the Chronicle sheet's boons and items found, and 1 XP and 500 gold, to a new or existing 1st-level PC.This still unlocks early access to items for the new or existing 1st level PC, which is a better deal than GM replay where your Chronicle is at your character's actual level. Granted, Chronicle access to items isn't really that useful right now... but buying a scroll of fireball or haste at level 1 (possible with a 7th level pre-gen in the right scenario and your 500gp reward) could break any Tier 1-2 mod in existence, and even many Tier 3-4/4-5's.). Given that fights tend to be a bit on the easy side in general anyway, this needs to be considered.
I'd rather not allow any item access for playing a pre-gen - you get +1XP, 500gp, and your prestige to a new or existing 1st-level character.
So to revise the currently-best-liked idea:
If you play any pregen and it survives, you receive a generic chronicle that grants 1XP, 500gp, and whatever prestige you earned. This chronicle may be applied only to a brand-new 1st-level PC.
Does that sound about right?
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Maybe this has been brought up, but maybe not. After spending some time in thought, I believe the requirement that you can't use a pregen if you have a tier appropriate character is unnecessary because this updated rules has consequences for character death and you can't apply pregen credit to your tier appropriate character. Consider the following situations.
1. You have a character at 7-11, but the current table APL is 7 and your character level is 10. You are close to retiring and planning for the level 12, and you'd rather not play down and receive less gold. You can play a pregen, but the character credit would have to go to a different character, not your level 10.
2. You show up at a game day and expected to play at a low table, but enough new people came that you felt it would be better to play at a different table that is doing a higher level scenario. Unfortunately, you realize you have a tier appropriate character that you left at home. You could use the pregen and play at a higher table, except the chronicle would have to go to your non-tier appropriate character.
3. You are asked to play in a 5-9 game, except you're 1 XP away from leveling to 10. You promised another group of friends you would hold off for leveling to play a certain scenario with them. The problem is this table needs you to make it legal. In this case, I say you can use the pregen to play, but you can't apply the chronicle to your tier appropriate character, you need to give it to a lower / newer character.
Because this ruling takes into account character death and limits when you can apply the chronicles (at certain #s), having the tier requirement may be superfluous and hard to track (as someone brought up, how do you know someone has a tier appropriate character, especially at a Con?). Other than that, I believe the rule change is great and am pleased folks won't seemingly waste a scenario by using a pregen.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I would maybe drop the "or existing" bit, only allowing the "generic" chronicle to go to a brand-new PC. That way you can't keep hitting mid- to high-level tables to get your guy to level 2 without risk.
Jiggy, we're quibbling now, but here's my take:
Pre-gen characters don't have factions, so the most fame a pre-gen can earn is 1 point per scenario, for mission success. If a player wants to burn through, say, nine scenarios, killing pre-gens until she gets three survivors, there are two penalties:
(1) a 2nd level character with only 3 fame.
(2) nine scenarios that are now closed off to her.
It's not dramatic, but there's a gradual penalty for adhering a lot of pre-gen credit to a single 1st-level character.
I was just trying to avoid saddling perpetual pre-gen players with a cribful of new PCs, #####-01 through #####-08.
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I continue to be very pleased with what I've seen in this thread. There have been a lot of good ideas and cases thrown around. Much of the exact same discussion happened in the private Venture-Captain thread on this topic.
Please keep in mind that this is additive text in the Guide, and as such all other understanding of how the universe works is valid. The formatting is a little funky, but I tried to keep it formatted the same column width as what I got out of the Guide.
Additional text in italics.
The Guide, pg 4:
If you don’t have time to create a new character or simply
wish to try out a new character class, you may choose
to use one of several level-appropriate pregenerated
characters available at paizo.com/pathfindersociety or
from your local event coordinator. If you play a 1st-level
pregenerated character, you can even apply the credit for
its first adventure to a newly created character of your
very own. If you play a non 1st-level pregenerated character,
you can apply the credit for it to your character as soon as they
reach the level of the pregenerated character played. You may
also opt instead to apply the credit from a non 1st-level
pregenerated character to a newly created character with the
GP gained reduced to 500 GP (or 250 for slow advancement track
characters). Equipment listed on the pregenerated character
sheet may never be sold.
The Guide, pg 27:
Step 3: Determine the Max
Gold for the scenario based on
the PC’s advancement rate and
the subtier played (F) and circle
the applicable value. This
value represents the total gp
value a character may receive
for defeating all enemies
and finding all treasure in a
scenario. If the PCs failed to
earn any of the rewards listed
in an individual act, deduct
the amount listed for the
applicable subtier from the
Chronicle’s Max Gold. If the
PC is playing a pregenerated
character greater than 1st level,
they may choose instead to apply this
Chronicle to a newly created 1st
level character. If this is the
case, reduce this value to 500
(or 250 for slow advancement track).
Place the sum of this calculation in
the shaded GP Gained field
and initial the adjacent box
(Q).
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Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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Yes, but the genie is out of the bottle. If the complaint is that OMG someone could find out what's in the module ahead of time and this has to be stopped.
Then when two people sit down- one who has played the module with a pregen and the other that just GM'd the module the slot before.. saying that we have to stop ONE of them but not the other seems a little overblown.
Sorry but I think we will just have to disagree. GM replay is for me the exception that proves the rule. I don't like the way LFR went though I think LG had it too hardline.
Replay only when it is warranted by something as crucial as keeping the GM pool healthy.I'm not saying that it's desirable, but it is accepted (by you) when we allow someone to GM a scenario and then play it.
Again I can't say that by allowing something in extremis I am saying it is generally ok If I sanction killing in self defence doesn't mean I allow it in all circumstances. Similarly cannibalism?
If it were that verboten and we desired to have 2 chronicles per scenario available then you could still do this without allowing replay. Just allow a person to GM a scenario twice for GM credit for example
I don't think opening that can of worms again is worth it. The decision seemed to be that allowing 1 game as GM 1 as player was the best option for the future of the game
I, personally, would really like to see it exactly laid out as to what the rules for pregens is meant to allow and what it is not meant to allow. There is some confusion (at least for myself) on this.Having this exactly detailed would be very useful to me and I would assume to some degree to everyone. For one thing we would know exactly the rule as intended, and for another you would be able to make reasonable suggestions for tweaking the rule so that it would still do what was intended...
Fair Play James I should have said I was only stating my views on what the purpose of the rules are based on the arguments here are as I defined them. still think I am covering the bases raised though ;-)
I was happy with the illegal way I ran things I.e, if you played a 4/7 pregen it was like it never happened no chronicle no report and If anyone was made enough to scout out mods then God help them.
I do like the idea of allowing a chron for your first run even if it is with a pregen, though subject to special rules. simplicity is not the only virtue when it come to rules making!
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There has been no other network campaign in history that let a new player start their first game with anything but a level 1 character. Why should PFS be different?
Actually, LFR started allowing players to create new 4th, 7th and 11th level characters at Gen Con 2010. That's the biggest reason that I haven't played an LFR module since 2010.
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Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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I am guessing the thread will be locked imminently. If I might make a quick comment. While the hands off approach was cool and constructive I would have to say a little more specification of goals might have made it easier to approach a consensus??
For me as I posted earlier it was to allow someone to use a pregen in certain circumstances but neither introducing a new official exception allowing replay but also not requiring eating of a mod.
How would you, oh powers that be specify the characteristics of the best solution?
