Critique my Arcane Duelist / Swashbuckler


Advice


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Here's the basic plan:

8 levels of Arcane Duelist
12 levels of Swashbuckler

Arcane duelist up to level 8 to get Dirge of Doom + Shatter Defences for easy sneak attacks on all those shaken enemies. A typicial combat would involve hasting everyone, putting up Dirge of Doom, and charging into the fray to wreak havoc.

What I lose from not going pure rogue:
4d6 Sneak attack (but this damage is made up elsewhere, see below)
Earlier access to Advanced Talents

What I gain:
HASTE!
Lvl 3 spells
Dirge of Doom, or +2 Inspire Courage depending on the situation as a move action.
The ability to Craft Wondrous Items, and add Weapon Enchants to my Bonded Weapon
(Note: My DM is very stingy on magic items, only giving out items off of random tables, never giving items tailored to our needs. Magic Items are very rarely for sale.)
+1d6 on all attacks for the entire party (Discordant Voice)
+3 damage per attack from Arcane Strike (The +2 caster levels from Magical Knack bumps this up to +3)
(Note: These last two features alone make up for 2d6 of the lost sneak attack damage)

There will be a Trapper ranger who will take on trap finding duty. My party will be light on spell casters. I may in fact be the only one. With Bonus Spells and the Bonded Weapon feature of the Arcane Duelist, I'll have 5 daily lvl 2 spells, and 4 daily lvl 3s, enough for lots of party hastes, or self only hastes (allegro). We will be playing in a generally low magic environment, and Sorcerors, Wizards, Paladins, and Monks are unavailable as PCs.

Hit the spoiler to check the build out. Please let me know what you think!

Bardic Rogue:

Race
Human
Favoured Class: Bard
Favoured Class Bonus: +1 HP for levels 1-6, for levels 7-8 get +1 lvl 2 spell known

Class
1-8 Bard (Arcane Duelist)
9-20 Rogue (Swashbuckler)

Abilities (20 pt buy)
Str 16
Dex 15
Con 14
Int   10
Wis 10
Cha 13
(Lvl 4 increase goes to cha, every subsequent one goes to str)

Traits
Resilient (+1 Fortitude save)
Magical Knack (+2 Caster Level, up to a maximum of current HD)

Feats, Bonus Feats and Rogue Talents
1 Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes, Arcane Strike (Bonus Feat)
2 Combat Casting (Bonus Feat)
3 Weapon Focus: Short Sword
5 Dazzling Display: Short Sword
6 Disruptive (Bonus Feat)
7 Craft Wondrous Items
9 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 Combat Trick: Shatter Defenses (Rogue Talent)
11 Discordant Voice
12 Resiliency (Rogue Talent)
13 Double Slice
14 Ninja Trick: Pressure Points (Rogue Talent)
15 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16 Combat Trick: Two-Weapon Rend (Rogue Talent)
17 TBA
18 Crippling Strike (Rogue Talent)
19 TBA
20 Opportunist (Rogue Talent)

Skills
Perception
Diplomacy
Spellcraft
Acrobatics
Intimidate
Stealth
Perform: Oratory (10 pts to qualify for discordant voice)
Climb (1 pt)
Swim (1 pt)
Knowledge: Arcana (the rest)
Other Knowledges (if there are any leftovers)

Spells
1 Cure Light Wounds, Grease, Expeditious retreat, Identify, Featherfall
2 Allegro, Mirror Image, Glitterdust, Heroism, Invisibility, Cure Moderate Wounds (Use 2 levels of favoured class to get two extra lvl 2 spells known)
3 Haste, Good Hope, Slow


looks like fun! cool.


Why not just stay all bard?

What exactly is the benefit from taking any rogue levels?


sunbeam wrote:

Why not just stay all bard?

What exactly is the benefit from taking any rogue levels?

6d6 sneak attack dice, which I get on every single attack (all seven of them per round) because of dirge of doom + shatter defenses. It could be that you're right, and that getting 6th level spells and all the rest is better than all those damage dice. But unless you keep your cha pumped, the 5th and 6th level spells are not that great - most of the good ones are saving throw dependant. Not gettting the 4th level spells does hurt a bit it's true.

Still, I'm open to the argument that I should go straight bard. What would you say the advantages that I might have overlooked are?


Bardic Dave wrote:
sunbeam wrote:

Why not just stay all bard?

What exactly is the benefit from taking any rogue levels?

6d6 sneak attack dice, which I get on every single attack (all seven of them per round) because of dirge of doom + shatter defenses. It could be that you're right, and that getting 6th level spells and all the rest is better than all those damage dice. But unless you keep your cha pumped, the 5th and 6th level spells are not that great - most of the good ones are saving throw dependant. Not gettting the 4th level spells does hurt a bit it's true.

Still, I'm open to the argument that I should go straight bard. What would you say the advantages that I might have overlooked are?

I guess it really depends on how easy it is going to be for you to get sneak attack opportunities.

If you just like the mix of rogue and bard, I'd go to 10th level for bard so you can cast greater invisibility. Even though Pathfinder has less things immune to sneak attack, it is harder to get off in this version.

My take on it is that a straight 20 bard would be a better combatant.

You can pretty much cover most of what a rogue does as a bard. If you look around on these boards you'll find a lot of rogue hate, with all kinds of critiquing.

High level bards have some good bonuses, both to apply to themselves and others. Then there are the spells. A level 20 bard may have the same bab as a 12/8 rogue/bard, but the single class bard has more things to add to his to attack roll, and that is going to make a big difference.

You might check out the dps olympics threads. Not too many rogues there it seems to me.


Hmmm I reread your build. I didn't realize dirge of doom apparently doesn't have a save (at least according to d20pfsrd.

Maybe your idea is really good, I haven't played with anyone who has tried this.


sunbeam wrote:
Bardic Dave wrote:
sunbeam wrote:

Why not just stay all bard?

What exactly is the benefit from taking any rogue levels?

6d6 sneak attack dice, which I get on every single attack (all seven of them per round) because of dirge of doom + shatter defenses. It could be that you're right, and that getting 6th level spells and all the rest is better than all those damage dice. But unless you keep your cha pumped, the 5th and 6th level spells are not that great - most of the good ones are saving throw dependant. Not gettting the 4th level spells does hurt a bit it's true.

Still, I'm open to the argument that I should go straight bard. What would you say the advantages that I might have overlooked are?

I guess it really depends on how easy it is going to be for you to get sneak attack opportunities.

If you just like the mix of rogue and bard, I'd go to 10th level for bard so you can cast greater invisibility. Even though Pathfinder has less things immune to sneak attack, it is harder to get off in this version.

My take on it is that a straight 20 bard would be a better combatant.

You can pretty much cover most of what a rogue does as a bard. If you look around on these boards you'll find a lot of rogue hate, with all kinds of critiquing.

High level bards have some good bonuses, both to apply to themselves and others. Then there are the spells. A level 20 bard may have the same bab as a 12/8 rogue/bard, but the single class bard has more things to add to his to attack roll, and that is going to make a big difference.

You might check out the dps olympics threads. Not too many rogues there it seems to me.

I see your point, and I agree that rogues can be fairly underwhelming. Still, part of the point of this build was to try to make a rogue that does well. Shatter defences + dirge of doom guarantees sneak attack as long as my target isn't immune to mind affecting effects. As for attack bonus, I've got haste, heroism and if I really need the boost from inspire courage I can turn that on and rely on dazzling display or flanking to get my sneak attacks instead. Beyond the additional +2 from inspire courage, can a 20 Bard do much better than that?


sunbeam wrote:

Hmmm I reread your build. I didn't realize dirge of doom apparently doesn't have a save (at least according to d20pfsrd.

Maybe your idea is really good, I haven't played with anyone who has tried this.

Yeah saveless dirge of doom ftw!

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