Usually when people tell me that something in Pathfinder is broken, I argue that the game is so complex that whatever build you can come up with, there has to be weaknesses which can be used by the clever GM or adventure designer. Also, many of the examples here on the messageboards only address questions and examples of rules in terms of combat, which make those examples to some degree arbitrary. One way to deal with that overpowered (fighter-) class could then be to stress role-playing, skill checks, natural hazards, poison, paralysis or other challenges, which doesn’t include combat by any means. So, hitherto I’ve never been especially bothered by peoples argument about something being broken in pathfinder.
This also shows how much I love the game and possible a how naïve I might be – struggling to defend Paizo/PF against whatever argument comes my way. No game has ever been perfect, why should PF have to be? It could be great fun nevertheless?!
Well, now my friend showed me a class build which included “Power attack”, a two-handed weapon, great Strength and the Paladin class. Together with the feat “Litany of Righteousness”, he gave me examples of how his paladin could do more than 200 points of damage to a single foe of the evil alignment. His question was if this combo of class, feats and abilities was a good example of something broken within the game. Of course I started to defend PF by saying something about that the paladin class HAS to have some weaknesses, for example they should be prime targets of someone using mind-affecting magic?
“Really?” he answered, “…but the paladin has good saves (Fort/Will) and can use his Cha-bonus on other saves (Divine Grace), is immune to fear (Aura of Courage) which also expands to his/her allies, immune to diseases and quite many conditions like fatigue or nauseated. The paladin also get some spells when he/she reach the appropriate level.”
I like my friends build and I’d like to think of him as a good player and that the reward for being such a good player should end up with dealing huge amounts of damage and beating the foes. If you are able to come up with a build that wins you the fight, I don’t want to punish my friend for being clever enough to find and use the most favourable choices.
But on the other hand, I want the game to be thrilling and challenging, whatever classes and feats we choose. Right now I can’t imagine an encounter that is truly challenging to a paladin. I can’t see the class’ weaknesses. Can you?
So, I need your help here..how to write an encounter that’s challenging to a paladin?
Thanks in advance!
Off the top of my head...
- Many paladin builds are formed around melee, so extend the range a bit.
- Litany is a really short-lived spell that bolsters attacks against evil. It, along with smite, look a tad less thrilling when your foes aren't evil.
- Higher saves don't mean immune, and everyone looks beatable when softened up by magic missiles.
- Many paladins are so preachy that all you need to do is wait for the rest of the party to kill them.
- Touch attacks, especially ranged (Hello gunslingers).
- Multiple weaker opponents rather than one powerful evil boss.
- Disarm him.
- Area of effect stuff, even when resisted, tends to smart for those without evasion.
- Rust monster.
- Skill challenges (trapped door?)
- STR, CON, CHA, maybe some DEX (depending on the build), there is some MADness in the class, so depending on the point buy they might be a tad more captain average compared to some other classes.
- A sorcerer with an overbite that's invisible, flying, and has a case of the Mondays?
- A rogue's sneak attack...
- Heavy armour/shields suck if the ACP is taken into account.
- Debuff him then make him your hand puppet.
- A neutrally-aligned giant that uses innocent babies a shield for his attacks.
- Codes of conduct lead to a degree of inflexibility in actions, which can force the paladin's hand when the chips are down.
Then there's just upping the encounter to challenge that specific character if he's so optimized as to feel like he has no weaknesses.
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He has good saves, and can deal nasty damage against Evil, but what happens if he takes his Great sword to a neutral construct? Losing smite against the construct's hardness should give someone else in the party a chance to shine.
Same thing in social challenges. Villains who are True Neutral are immune to his smiting and detection, and evil characters that he can't kill for plot reasons also neutralize his crazy damage somewhat.
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Touch attacks, and non evil creatures are big ones. Constructs will be hated by the paladin. I see the moral dilemma to be a drawback if you can do it right. Make him fall and adventure for a little while with no paladin levels. Then show him who's boss, without being a dick of course. My favorite thing as a DM is walking the paladin into a fall and redeeming him. If the Paladin does not fall or come close I haven't really done my job as a DM. And of course, this involves not just screwing with him either. I in no way condone arbitrarily making him fall. Make it real fun, and morally ambiguous.
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Disguise yourself as his superior and command him to kill a red dragon thats out of his league and bring you the treasure. This is something of a Xanatos gambit: you get something either way!
So a class based on fighting evil can do a lot of damage to evil...? That's not even the top tear of dpr builds and even if it was ending encounters with HP damage is sub-optimal anyway. Even though there is a bit less of it in pathfinder save or lose spells/abilities are still alive and well. When a full caster can snap his fingers and win does damage really matter?
Litany of Righteousness is a spell by the way and it is one round. With paladins limited spells per day unless you are doing the 15min work day thing he should be out quick. If you are doing 15min work days then stop it.
Other ways to beat a paladin or make him useless which is that say thing is out run him with ranged. Fullplate after all. Or the problems other melees have like flying enemies just going over them and eating the people behind them.
How about try a few baddies now and then that are a specialized vs good as he is vs evil? Anti-paladin is obvious but I am sure there are other things that can work.
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A good way to orchestrate a fall is making him do very small unquestionable things. Then they become more questionable, but the task giver gives him tons of reasons why what he is doing id righteous. After a bit of this have him do something really dangerous to his morals by choice but with great rewards at the end and AND!! make it emotional for the character. After that he is a fallen paladin and you get to have fun watching his story of repentance.
Your friend cannot see the forest for the trees.
What level was this amazing Paladin?
This all seems very 'corner case' and 'on a perfect day' to me...
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Really with all the childish "Make him fall!" bull? For a class that's only about middle ground in power there sure are a lot of people that love to play screw over the paladin.
Not a day goes by around here without a "Justify me making this paladin fall" thread.
Edit for silly redundant wording.
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The biggest thing is not to exploit the character to only attack his weaknesses but to give him a few encounters every now and then that he has to use himself as a shield instead of a brute damager. Making him team tactics with his party is a fun way to learn to be effective against things you normally cant do crap against.
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So a class based on fighting evil can do a lot of damage to evil...? That's not even the top tear of dpr builds and even if it was ending encounters with HP damage is sub-optimal anyway. Even though there is a bit less of it in pathfinder save or lose spells/abilities are still alive and well. When a full caster can snap his fingers and win does damage really matter?
Actually, if you snap a casters fingers, they can't cast anymore. Not sure how they're going to win after that.
An industrial blender, feet first.
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As to the OP, a few folks have already said it, anything non evil makes a Paladin less awesome.
Also, depending on how much the party sticks to role play in their game, the Paladin may step on toes of the party as well when it comes to solving some situations.
Also something to note, if yo can get hold of the Gods of Golarian books Paizo have published, they have specific Paladin codes for each god. Make sure your player reads those and sticks to them closely.
A caveat though, and I think you already alluded to this in your original post, don't go overboard with the ideas in these these responses. Only bring some of these to the foreground if the Paladin really starts overshadowing the party.
I believe that's the point stome was trying to make in his posts.
Cheers
Also since this combo hinges on one spell that can be cast a very limited number of times per day SR is going to wrack it. Remember a paladin's caster level is -3 from his class level.
Actually since both Litany of Righteousness and Smite Evil are both swift actions this takes two rounds to set up. The first being to declare a smite evil. On the next round the paladin can cast Litany of Righteousness. While this is a powerful combination it has some limits.
Paladins for the most part are usually not the most damaging classes. Fighters and other martial classes can usually do more damage than a paladin. Now a couple of times per day vs. specific opponents paladins can really shine.
If you are wading through an army of low level minions to get to the BBEG the fighter or barbarian is probably going to be doing better than the paladin. Once the party gets at the BBEG then the paladin gets his turn to shine. Also if the BBEG is a BBNG like a construct or an elemental or any other non evil he does not do nearly as well.
How I like to kill Paladins?
With good aligned dragons.
Any advice on how to kill a paladin that can cast Sanctuary on himself as a swift and the DC increases with his level and he also has a Holy Avenger and a Griffon mount?
Any advice on how to kill a paladin that can cast Sanctuary on himself as a swift and the DC increases with his level and he also has a Holy Avenger and a Griffon mount?
Agreed with Meirril.
Sanctuary prevents the Paladin from attacking without breaking the spell, and even with unlimited uses that still eats up their valuable swift actions each turn if they choose to attack. Alternatively, get the drop on the paladin and burst them in the surprise+first round of combat before they're able to activate their Sanctuary.
But this sounds like an NPC with handwaved rules, so the Sanctuary ability may not work like the spell and allow the Paladin to attack at the same time.
Would be easier if we knew what level you and the paladin are at.
Have the GM ban Fey Foundling and Greater Mercy.
Against anything that isn’t evil Paladins kinda feel like fighters stuck in treacle. Effectiveness goes way down.
They also do not get a great deal of feats, meaning they probably aren’t gonna be great at multiple fighting styles. A melee Paladin with lacklustre range is not unheard of, especially in mid levels before they have enough feats.
They also tend to have to use limited resources to really pop off, so they do tend to suffer with long days and short nights,
Also just basic damage piles up against them, they rarely have high Dex saves, even with divine grace, if you’re forcing them to burn healing hands on healing they’ll not be able to burn them on smites.
A well built Paladin is strong but certainly not broken
Sanctuary doesn't prevent AoE effects.
I've always thought targeting a Paladin's HP is a fools game. If you can do WIS/INT damage/drain you might be able to get them unconscious faster (then Coup de Grace).
Also as Chromantic Durgon <3 mentioned targeting their Reflex save is your best bet (which is good since you're using AoE spells).
Also remember that if you fail you dr will save you're prevented from attacking until the Paladin attacks, but once he's attacked you can try again. You only need to succeed once for your full-round attack to go through. Alchemist with Fast Bombs and Madness Bomb is 1 - 2 rounds from Killing most Paladins if you pass your saves vs Sanctuary.
swarm of D sized creatures should do it.
back in 3.5 illusion of a floor over a pit didn't give any save if you were running and got over it. party's paladin learned it the hard way when scream for helps made him run into an ally...
had an anti-paladin serpentfolk with the final embrace horror grapple a paladin. his aura of fear neg' the paladin's fear immunity and with many grapple feats allowing over one grapple in a round he was grappled (and later pinned) with easy. once two constrict damaged the paladin his shaken was worsened to frightened (and then panicked), so all he could do was attempt to free himself, since he couldn't use attacks (and grapple IS a special attack) he had to relay on his low escape artist.
he died screaming in fear, crushed and constricted...
As others have mentioned - non evils & enervation. Elementals and wands are especially good for this.
An Elder Mud Elemental killed the 11th level pally in our group two years ago. He went unconscious and suffocated in the mud while the rest of the party would not go near to save him after seeing the damage output...
Critical situations involving Stealth checks.
Critical situations involving Acrobatics checks.
Critical situations involving Perception checks.
Critical situations involving the entire team lying/Bluff/Disguise.
Drowning.
Illusions hiding tremendous falls.
Anything that targets ranged Touch AC.
Anything that flies.
Animals of non-Evil alignment.
Continuing assault of non-evil enemies.
The use of an Anti-Paladin of any comparable level.
Pit spells.
High mobility enemies that target the Paladin's allies and exploit the piss-poor-Paladin-speed.
Morally ambiguous situations that involve burning Goblin babies.
Hostage situations that involve the hostages being killed but the killers remain to ridicule the Paladin in captivity.
Decent Rogue/Njnjas.
Sunder monkeys.
Especially RANGED Sunder monkeys.
Things that operate in environments that render the Paladin blind.
Magic Missile.
Killing their deity.
Transporting them to a Plane hostile to their own survival.
Dragging them underground using a Borrow speed and Reposition maneuver.
Rust Monsters.
That silly break neck grappling Wizard floating around.
Anything that involves not being an uptight stick in the mud.
Crossbow Maven Gunslingers.
Swallow Whole.
Vorpal/Jubjub Bird's Deadly Bite.
PS. For most Paladins, to be rendered useless in combat, not capable of protecting your party, is the same as death...
My favorite is to beat the Paladin at their own game...
Use Devils and Demons...
Use the temptation of greatness and glory against that self-righteous @ssh0le!
Don't make it obvious, though.
A horde of seemingly insignificant flying minions with what is to be perceived as the big bad guy...
Let the Paladin in question waste resources Smiting the big foe, ignoring the minions...
Only for another wave to appear...
Now the previous "big" guy is the average foot soldier in the next wave, and there is a completely new, and much worse big bag guy in the field...
The Paladin wastes even more resources to eliminate this big bad guy as soon as possible, but wait, there's more...
However, the Paladin has exhausted their resources eliminating TWO of the 25 enemies... the party is dead... not even the Paladin's god can save it now.
PS. It's all about resources and alignments when it comes to the Paladin, exploiting this is not difficult...
A succubus in a grapple?
Hard to increase your CMD in heavy armour ^^Worst than neutral aligned foes ? GOOD aligned foes!
That can happen if two groups of goody have contradictory views on how to solve a situation (or one group is manipulated).
A decent Bluff can pit two Good teams against each other... like I said, a Decent Rogue...
Any advice on how to kill a paladin that can cast Sanctuary on himself as a swift and the DC increases with his level and he also has a Holy Avenger and a Griffon mount?
I guess the real question is WHY you need to do this?
Is this a PvP situation? Are you the GM trying to kill a PC?
Or is this actually part of a game and you need this to move forward?
Paladins typically have low Wis (7-12ish) because they get their Cha to saves and have almost no benefit from pumping Wis in lieu of the other stats. So, just get any type of monster that attacks wisdom scores. I was a PC in a game with a DM who did exactly this to our party paladin (Wis score of 8) and dropped him in less than 3 rounds, and this was just after waking up in the morning with full spells, HP, and everything. We were level 7 at the time, iirc.
A lot of the advice I am seeing is about neutralizing smite evil. The problem is that really does not make it much easier to kill a paladin. While smite evil is the paladins best offensive class ability, it does not add that much in the way of defense. All you get is your CHA bonus as a deflection bonus to AC. Most of the time this is a minor adjustment because chances are the paladin already has some form of deflection bonus anyways. What makes a paladin tough to kill is all the defensive ability which work perfectly fine vs any alignment.
Paladin’s defensive abilities are some of the best in the game. In order to kill a paladin those are what need to be dealt with. Paladins are proficient with heavy armor and shields, which mean they usually, have good AC. They have two good saves and get their CHA bonus to all saves, which means you can’t count on them failing a save. While their reflex saves are usually lower than the other two they are still probably not low enough to count as a weakness. Paladins usually have decent HP so that makes spells targeting reflex saves even less effective. Most spells that target reflex saves are mainly those doing HP damage.
Paladins also get a lot of immunities. At 3rd level they are immune to fear and disease. At 8th level they get immunity to charm. By 17th level they are immune to compulsions. They also at this time gain DR 5/evil, which increases to DR 10/evil at 20th level. Ironically this helps them more vs non evil creatures than it does vs evil.
One of the paladin’s best defensive ability is lay on hands. This has rightly been called the only worthwhile in combat healing. Not only does this restore HP, it can also remove conditions. This is something that is often overlooked. This basically ends up making the paladin essentially immune to a lot of conditions. This is another reason that thing requiring a reflex save do not have much effect on the paladin.
Paladins also get spells. Most people tend to concentrate on the offensive spells, but paladins get some decent defensive spells. Hero’s Defiance is available as early as 4th level. Resist Energy comes online at 7th level. Contest of Skill makes it nearly impossible to critical on the paladin. By themselves a paladins spells are not that strong, but when added to other abilities they can make him very difficult to take down.
This does not mean a paladin is unbeatable, but it does mean that they are very tough to take down.
Touch of Idiocy is a good spell to weaken a paladin. Causing a paladin to lose CHA is always helpful. Since it also reduces INT and WIS at the same time this can be very useful. If you have another method of reducing these stats it could be a valid way to take down the paladin. Since touch of idiocy is a compulsion it only works on a paladin lower than 17th level.
Sands of Time is another good spell to use against a paladin. If the paladin is already middle age or older it is particularly effective.
A Magus using Dimensional Blade can also be very effective vs a Paladin.
I mean targeting touch AC and using saveless spells works on virtually everything.
Any advice on how to kill a paladin that can cast Sanctuary on himself as a swift and the DC increases with his level and he also has a Holy Avenger and a Griffon mount?I guess the real question is WHY you need to do this?
Is this a PvP situation? Are you the GM trying to kill a PC?
Or is this actually part of a game and you need this to move forward?
Yeah; I'm curious what's really going on here, too.
Any advice on how to kill a paladin that can cast Sanctuary on himself as a swift and the DC increases with his level and he also has a Holy Avenger and a Griffon mount?
Gate him to the plane of water and then cast Scrying so you can watch him drown.