Quickdraw Shield + Quickdraw Feat stinks of cheese?


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

Hi all,
Just looking at the Quickdraw shield from APG and noticed that with teh Quickdraw feat you are able to put on and take off the shield as a free action.

Doesn't this mean that technically, you could be attacking with a Bastard sword (or a longsword for that matter) 2h for the 1.5 str bonus and then as a free action equip the shield so that you have shield AC during opponents turn. Then, again on your turn take it off, strike with the 2h attack and equip again? Smells rather cheesy to me...I assume I am missing something obvious to stop this?


Asteldian Caliskan wrote:


Doesn't this mean that technically, you could be attacking with a Bastard sword (or a longsword for that matter) 2h for the 1.5 str bonus and then as a free action equip the shield so that you have shield AC during opponents turn. Then, again on your turn take it off, strike with the 2h attack and equip again?

Yep, seems to be legal, unless the DM rules against it being within the reasonable limits on what you can really do for free. Which he should inform the players of before they take Quickdraw or buy a Quickdraw shield.

Liberty's Edge

I think I can see the idea in it. Ever play Diablo 2? The barbarian's ability to deal stronger damage but during the swing he's weaker? So I'd assume he'd flick his wrist and arm, and so the shield flings onto his back, grabs the sword with two hands, hacks away, and flicks it back.

So during the attack swings if he's AOO, or countered, or otherwise interrupted he has no shield AC or blocking ability, a calculated risk that a smart enemy could plan against. Damn good tactic though.

Dark Archive

I don't think it's really a big deal. It costs either one feat, and you're forced to use a one-handed weapon to take advantage of it, or it costs two feats, just so you can use a bastard sword, which is still inferior to most two-handed weapons.

I suppose the biggest offender would be quickdraw + falcata, but that's the falcata's problem, not quickdraw's. I just haven't seen Quickdraw show up very often in the feat progression of most min-maxed builds, because a lot of them tend to be already feat-starved.

Liberty's Edge

It's true it is not particularly overpowered, just seemed odd. Have to admit the idea grows on me though :D
I mean ultimately, as high crit is so popular you are limited to either just a Scimitar for the 1d6 but 18-20 crit, or using a feat for the Falcata for 1d8 and 19/20 x3 crit. Hmm, what does more damage whe nyou consider Improved crit. The x3 with less chance of happening or the x2 with better chance

Also, while I am pondering. Has Heirloom weapon been banned from PFS play yet or is it still viable? Or has it been adjusted?


Asteldian Caliskan wrote:
Has Heirloom weapon been banned from PFS play yet or is it still viable? Or has it been adjusted?

It changed:

Heirloom Weapon: When you select this trait, choose one of the following benefits:

* proficiency with that specific weapon
* a +1 trait bonus on attacks of opportunity with that specific weapon
* a +2 trait bonus on one kind of combat maneuver when using that specific weapon.

Note: You pay the standard gp cost for the weapon.

Sovereign Court

Grick wrote:
Asteldian Caliskan wrote:
Has Heirloom weapon been banned from PFS play yet or is it still viable? Or has it been adjusted?

It changed:

Heirloom Weapon: When you select this trait, choose one of the following benefits:

* proficiency with that specific weapon
* a +1 trait bonus on attacks of opportunity with that specific weapon
* a +2 trait bonus on one kind of combat maneuver when using that specific weapon.

Note: You pay the standard gp cost for the weapon.

I want to note that this is errata to the Armoury, not a PFS alteration (like Gunsmithing.)


Asteldian Caliskan wrote:

Hi all,

Just looking at the Quickdraw shield from APG and noticed that with teh Quickdraw feat you are able to put on and take off the shield as a free action.

Doesn't this mean that technically, you could be attacking with a Bastard sword (or a longsword for that matter) 2h for the 1.5 str bonus and then as a free action equip the shield so that you have shield AC during opponents turn. Then, again on your turn take it off, strike with the 2h attack and equip again? Smells rather cheesy to me...I assume I am missing something obvious to stop this?

All legal, and works like Ring of Force Shield (effectively). Also works with a 2-handed weapon, although you wouldn't get AoOs in that case.

Start of round:

- unequip shield/deactivate ring (free action)
- grip weapon with off-hand (free action)
- take normal attack actions
- ungrip weapon with off-hand (free action)
- equip shield/activate ring (free action)

Rinse and repeat.


Mmh. If they HAD the same base damage, say if we compared the falcata to the rhoka (1d8, 18-20/x2), it would be like this, according to the DPR olympics threads:

Quote:

The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.

h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.

I don't know if that formula really makes sense, but it's the one that gets used.

To give you actual numbers, we have to assign both of them the same hit chance, say 50%, the same strength mod, say +4, and assume no precision damage.

Default
Rhoka: 0.5*8.5 + 0.15*1*0.5*8.5 = 4.8875 (set to default)
Falcata: 0.5*8.5 + 0.1*2*0.5*8.5 = 5.1 (about 4% better)

Imp Crit
Rhoka: 0.5*8.5 + 0.3*1*0.5*8.5 = 5.525 (about 13% better than w/o the feat)
Falcata: 0.5*8.5 + 0.2*2*0.5*8.5 = 5.95 (about 7% better than the rhoka, and 16& better than w/o the feat)

So if you just go by the numbers of the weapons alone, the x3 is better, and even benefits to a larger degree from the feat.

But if you use some of the numerous feats and magic item properties that are triggered by a crit, I think the weapon with the larger crit chance will be better in actual play.

Silver Crusade

Not overpowered, just silly.


Asteldian Caliskan wrote:

Hi all,

Just looking at the Quickdraw shield from APG and noticed that with teh Quickdraw feat you are able to put on and take off the shield as a free action.

Doesn't this mean that technically, you could be attacking with a Bastard sword (or a longsword for that matter) 2h for the 1.5 str bonus and then as a free action equip the shield so that you have shield AC during opponents turn. Then, again on your turn take it off, strike with the 2h attack and equip again? Smells rather cheesy to me...I assume I am missing something obvious to stop this?

I could imagine it. He charges his enemy, he then throws his shield up in the air, and uses both hands on his B-Sword, and after he is done, he catches it. :p

Dark Archive

Lockgo wrote:
Asteldian Caliskan wrote:

Hi all,

Just looking at the Quickdraw shield from APG and noticed that with teh Quickdraw feat you are able to put on and take off the shield as a free action.

Doesn't this mean that technically, you could be attacking with a Bastard sword (or a longsword for that matter) 2h for the 1.5 str bonus and then as a free action equip the shield so that you have shield AC during opponents turn. Then, again on your turn take it off, strike with the 2h attack and equip again? Smells rather cheesy to me...I assume I am missing something obvious to stop this?

I could imagine it. He charges his enemy, he then throws his shield up in the air, and uses both hands on his B-Sword, and after he is done, he catches it. :p

Which is way too awesome to ever be overpowered.

Silver Crusade

Just noticed that readying a shield with a +1 BAB normally only costs a free action combined with a move, which is better than the swift action with the quickdraw shield, though it allows putting it away quickly rather than just dropping it.

As for using it with the Quick Draw feat- "If you have the Quick Draw feat, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a free action." At first I thought the same as the OP, but perhaps they meant one or the other in a round. In other words, doing both may constitute a swift or move action - definitely one of those GM discretion things.

Even then, shouldn't putting the shield away provoke even as a free action? RAW says that most free actions don't provoke.


Grick wrote:
Asteldian Caliskan wrote:
Has Heirloom weapon been banned from PFS play yet or is it still viable? Or has it been adjusted?

It changed:

Heirloom Weapon: When you select this trait, choose one of the following benefits:

* proficiency with that specific weapon
* a +1 trait bonus on attacks of opportunity with that specific weapon
* a +2 trait bonus on one kind of combat maneuver when using that specific weapon.

Note: You pay the standard gp cost for the weapon.

Also to note since it is no longer mw it becomes a useless item after 3-4 levels.


You can quick draw your shield but i you ever remove it you can not put it again as a free action.

Why? just imagine a sword, you can draw it quicly but taht feat does not permit you to quick sheathe it


Talonhawke wrote:
Grick wrote:
Asteldian Caliskan wrote:
Has Heirloom weapon been banned from PFS play yet or is it still viable? Or has it been adjusted?

It changed:

Heirloom Weapon: When you select this trait, choose one of the following benefits:

* proficiency with that specific weapon
* a +1 trait bonus on attacks of opportunity with that specific weapon
* a +2 trait bonus on one kind of combat maneuver when using that specific weapon.

Note: You pay the standard gp cost for the weapon.

Also to note since it is no longer mw it becomes a useless item after 3-4 levels.

And that you can't pick an exotic weapon.


More the fact that no other trait's bonus is gone by level 5 to me i could live with no exotic but i want my MW or at least the ability to make ti MW


A few things here about the quickdraw shield:

PRD - APG - Gear - Quickdraw Shield wrote:
Spoiler:
This light shield is specially crafted with a series of straps to allow a character proficient in shields to ready or stow it on his or her back quickly and easily. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a swift action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw a light or one-handed weapon with one hand and a quickdraw shield with the other in the time it would normally take you to draw one weapon. If you have the Quick Draw feat, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a free action.

First, there is a mechanical difference between donning (ie wear) and retrieving (take it out from a pack, off your back) a shield. A quickdraw shield allows you to don it as free action with quickdraw, but does not aid in being able to retrieve it (unless you have Two Weapon Fighting). If you stow it witout the feat, you have to use a move action to get it out then it's a free action to put it back on.

This is why a quickdraw shield says: If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a swift action combined with a regular move.

Combined with the move you: Move & Combo Retrieval of the Shield and then strap it to yourself (don/wear it) as an extra Swift action on top of the move action.

Secondly, it is a light shield and has all restrictions and penalties there of. If you used the left hand to make an attack, then equipped a buckler shield to the left arm [let's say it was possible for a moment], you'd gain no sheld bonus this round. The same is true with somatic components, as again you have already used that limb in combat. If you use the shield to make a shield bash (again without feats), you lose AC bonus as well, as you're actively employing your shield arm.

PRD - Core - Equipment - Light Shield wrote:

Spoiler:
You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

Wooden or Steel: Wooden and steel shields offer the same basic protection, though they respond differently to some spells and effects.

Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See “shield, light” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Since the rules don't really cover how light shields function in this respect, equipping a quickdraw shield after an attack, I'd use the rules laid out by the buckler and I would certainly not allow you to attack with a two handed weapon then change your grip to use a shield in one of the hands. But, I put the question out to the discussers, if this is generally not possible with any other shield, then why should it be assumed that the Quickdraw shield would allow this? It does not state that it changes the way shields function in any way or that this is a special feature of the Quickdraw shield. Instead it lists its benefits.

PRD - Core - Equipment - Buckler wrote:
Spoiler:
This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.

Liberty's Edge

Ok, so no cheesy 2h with Quickdraw shield then

Dark Archive

It seems like it would benefit a thunderstriker build, or possibly a stalwart defender, other then that I am not sure many would spend two feats on this.

Dark Archive

I must admit I'm struggling to understand this.

Are we saying, then, that if I am holding a two-handed weapon in one hand, have a quickdraw shield in the other, and I have Quick Draw, then I can:

1) Put away my shield as a free action
2) Shift grip to to my 2-handed weapon as a free action
3) Use a standard action to attack with it (Vital Strike, perhaps)
4) Shift grip back as a free action
5) Use a move action to retrieve my shield
6) Use a free action to don the shield
7) Take a 5' step (and bow)

Richard


richard develyn wrote:
Are we saying, then, that if I am holding a two-handed weapon in one hand, have a quickdraw shield in the other, and I have Quick Draw, then I can: (use them both)

Yes.

Remember though, that when you're carrying the two-handed weapon you're not wielding it, so you can't use it to make any attacks of opportunity or any other attacks with it until your turn when you can spend a couple free actions to wield it again.

Also note that many people would not treat donning the shield as two actions (retrieval and don) but rather one action (don) which means you could stow, shift grip, full attack, shift grip, and don. This was discussed fairly exhaustively in this thread so don't rely on this tactic without approval from your DM.


Talonhawke wrote:


Also to note since it is no longer mw it becomes a useless item after 3-4 levels.

Well, there is http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/masterwork-transformation

At least in a homegame that should fly with most GMs

Grand Lodge

I wonder if the heirloom weapon could be a battering ram or an arrow. Is that legit?

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