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is a trait bonus a trait bonus when its not typed as a trait bonus?
specifically the gifted adept ( +1 caster level w/ one spell ) , and Force For Good ( silver crusade. +1 caster level with [Good] spells ). casting summon monster I for a celestial animal becomes a [good] spell, and both my gifted adept (sm1) and force for good would apply.
they're not typed as a +1 trait bonus to caster level explicitly, just wondering if there is any way these would stack to a +2 caster level on this and only this spell, at 1st level.
asking because i've got a character that i want to run through the intro series, and trying to decide which trait to take. stymied because if i go for the Force for Good one, i wont' get any benefit from the trait until 2nd level, when it won't matter as much ( using it to get 2nd level effect , so i can summon a monster for 2 rounds. )
i have to leave the trait open, if i want to take it after the intro series, right?
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is a trait bonus a trait bonus when its not typed as a trait bonus?
This part is just a rules question, not a PFS question. My inclination (sadly) is they do stack because they are untyped. I could be mistaken though. I'm not a fan of traits that give a caster level bonus. Boo.
i have to leave the trait open, if i want to take it after the intro series, right?
If you intend to play them and join the Silver Crusade and take that trait, that's correct.
Incidentally, I've seen two separate Initiative traits stacked on character sheets before. Is that legal?
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... and as long as they are two different category of trait, so Reactionary from Combat and Warrior of Old from Racial would work.
The type of trait would not have an impact since that is not a category of bonus (morale, deflection, sacred, etc). There does not appear to be a bonus category called "trait."
It does, however, matter that you cannot select more than one trait from a specific group.
Awesome, thanks!
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Not sure I follow what you are saying here Bob. There are many traits that give a +1 trait bonus on something. Or did you mean something else?
Just saying that unless the trait specifically calls a specific trait a "trait bonus" it should be considered un-typed. There is no default trait bonus that all would automatically fall into.
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I believe all the Traits that give init bonuses are either the same category which means you can't take both, or they are Considered "Trait Bonus" which does not stack.
I do not think there is any case you can take 2 traits with Init Bonus that would allow you to stack them.
I believe there is a combat trait for init, at least two regional ones, a racial one or two, and possibly campaign ones.
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I believe there is a combat trait for init, at least two regional ones, a racial one or two, and possibly campaign ones.I believe all the Traits that give init bonuses are either the same category which means you can't take both, or they are Considered "Trait Bonus" which does not stack.
I do not think there is any case you can take 2 traits with Init Bonus that would allow you to stack them.
And I am almost Positive they all say "Trait" Bonus, which makes them unable to stack.
I have been paying close attention to traits that give bonus to Initiative, and though I Could have missed one, I was not able to find any that stack.
Seems like everyone has a different opinion here. I'm gonna check around and see if I can find any definite answers.
And I am almost Positive they all say "Trait" Bonus, which makes them unable to stack.
I have been paying close attention to traits that give bonus to Initiative, and though I Could have missed one, I was not able to find any that stack.
You're usually right about rules and such, but could you please quote the text that says different section trait bonuses don't stack? I am trying to find trait bonus rules.
Yar.
Advanced Players Guide, page 326, left column, 2nd paragraph.
This can also be found on the PRD right HERE, and on the SRD right HERE (though in the SRD link, you'll have to scroll down past the list, and read the text there, second paragraph).
Many traits grant a new type of bonus: a “trait” bonus. Trait bonuses do not stack—they're intended to give player characters a slight edge, not a secret backdoor way to focus all of a character's traits on one type of bonus and thus gain an unseemly advantage. It's certainly possible, for example, that somewhere down the line, a “Courageous” trait might be on the list of dwarf race traits, but just because this trait is on both the dwarf race traits list and the basic combat traits list doesn't mean you're any more brave if you choose both versions than if you choose only one.
There. "Trait" is a bonus type. If the trait lists it's bonus as a "Trait" bonus, then it does not stack with other "Trait" bonuses. If the trait doesn't give it's bonus a type, then it's bonus is untyped, and thus, DOES stack, as per the rules for bonus stacking.
And yes, you can still only take one trait per category (racial traits, combat traits, etc).
~P
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... and as long as they are two different category of trait, so Reactionary from Combat and Warrior of Old from Racial would work.Incidentally, I've seen two separate Initiative traits stacked on character sheets before. Is that legal?As long as the trait itself does not list a bonus type, then yes, it appears to be legal
Reactionary: You were bullied often as a child, but never
quite developed an offensive response. Instead, you became
adept at anticipating sudden attacks and reacting to danger
quickly. You gain a +2 trait bonus on Initiative checks.
Warrior of Old: As a child, you put in long hours in
combat drills, and though time has made this training
a dim memory, you still have a knack for quickly
responding to trouble. You gain a +2 trait bonus on
Initiative checks.
These two traits won't stack, they both explicitly provide trait, rather than untyped, bonuses.
Main benefit would be allowing an Elf to take the Warrior of Old, and then choosing a Combat trait that they otherwise couldn't choose, like Armor Expert or some such.
Of course, you could always take the Social trait Adopted to take Warrior of Old, even if you aren't an Elf:
Adopted: You were adopted and raised by someone not
of your actual race, and raised in a society not your own.
As a result, you picked up a race trait from your adoptive
parents and society, and may immediately select a race
trait from your adoptive parents’ race.
Gives me a headache, on reflection.
Great, that looks pretty clear-cut to me. Thanks guys :)
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I can't see too many 1st level spells that are [good] that this would imbalance. summon monster is all i can figure. it wouldn't work with magic missile or any sorcerer/wizard evocation spells, there's no [good] typed 1st level ones afaik. the only other trait i can think is the cheliax master of pentacles one, which is +2 cl once a day on a summoning spell for purposes of duration, doesn't say good/evil. so could probably get a +3 CL once a day with summons. Its in no way broken considering summoners get SM as a spell like ability at 1st level 3 + primary stat times a day and lasts minutes/level instead of rounds =P
do have a question if some one here see this if i take the trait
armor expert- (combat trait)
When you wear armor of any sort, reduce that suit’s armor check penalty by 1, to a minimum check penalty of 0.
and the trait
Armor master-(regional trait)
When you wear armor of any sort, reduce that suit’s armor check penalty by 1, to a minimum check penalty of 0.
do these stack to a -2 acp? meaning that a armor that gives a 3 armor penalty to a 1acp or that a 2 acp armor drops to 0acp correct?
Traits don't stack.
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do have a question if some one here see this if i take the trait
armor expert- (combat trait)
When you wear armor of any sort, reduce that suit’s armor check penalty by 1, to a minimum check penalty of 0.and the trait
Armor master-(regional trait)
When you wear armor of any sort, reduce that suit’s armor check penalty by 1, to a minimum check penalty of 0.
do these stack to a -2 acp? meaning that a armor that gives a 3 armor penalty to a 1acp or that a 2 acp armor drops to 0acp correct?
I assume the second trait you are referring to is actually Sargavan Guard (3rd party sites can't use specific people/places/groups/etc. from the campaign world).
Those two traits do seem to stack, as neither 'bonus' is typed (Technically speaking, neither trait even gives a 'bonus' as they are actually reducing penalties).
Yeah. There’s no bonus. So stacking rules don’t technically apply.
Wow this thread got necro'ed...
I believe that there was an FAQ posted a while back because of the same arguement with stacking Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage, as they both reduced the effective spell level of a spell under metamagic; neither of which provided a "trait bonus".
Consensus was that if a trait modifies the same thing in the same way it shouldn't stack (but can be allowed at homebrew rulings).
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Adding to what Alphavoltario said, the problem is that both modify the armor check penalty, i.e. the same starting value. That means that the ACP of a breastplate, -4, will be reduced to -3 by armor expert and, again, modified from -4 to -3 by Sargavan Guard.
They aren't a bonus to your ACP, they modify the value.
It is like having two coupons for a 10% discount when you buy one item of X, you can't add them together to buy one item with a 20% discount.
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Adding to what Alphavoltario said, the problem is that both modify the armor check penalty, i.e. the same starting value. That means that the ACP of a breastplate, -4, will be reduced to -3 by armor expert and, again, modified from -4 to -3 by Sargavan Guard.
They aren't a bonus to your ACP, they modify the value.
It is like having two coupons for a 10% discount when you buy one item of X, you can't add them together to buy one item with a 20% discount.
By that line of thought, neither trait should 'stack' with Masterwork Armor since they both reduce/lessen the ACP by 1.
The precedent of magical lineage + wayang spellhunter (which do work together to reduce a sort of penalty) suggests that getting these two traits together is going to work too.
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Adding to what Alphavoltario said, the problem is that both modify the armor check penalty, i.e. the same starting value. That means that the ACP of a breastplate, -4, will be reduced to -3 by armor expert and, again, modified from -4 to -3 by Sargavan Guard.
They aren't a bonus to your ACP, they modify the value.
It is like having two coupons for a 10% discount when you buy one item of X, you can't add them together to buy one item with a 20% discount.
This is incorrect on several levels. As Taja said, that interpretation would mean that neither of those traits stack with masterwork armor, or mithral armor, or anything else that would reduce armor check penalty.
Reduction of ACP is referred to as a "bonus" in at least one place in the CRB.
Even if it didn't, there's nothing that says that untyped "modifications" don't stack.
As for the coupon analogy: if you have two coupons that gave you a $10 discount, they would stack unless one or both specifically says "cannot be combined with any other offers" or something similar. Even percentage discounts would stack (though the store would probably apply them multiplicatively, not additively.)
There are a lot of cases where traits probably shouldn't stack (Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage) but that's a GM putting in a limit for the good of the game rather than a rule in the book.