Magic Item Creation: Bonus to Overcome Spell Resistance, Discounts, Price Increases?


Rules Questions


I've been trying to figure out how much this magic item trait is worth. It's not listed and the only item I can find in the RAW that offers a bonus to overcome SR is the robe of the archmagi- and that has so many bonuses and discounts in one item it has bested my efforts to try and deduce the formula that went into coming up with its price.

The problem is that the robe of the archmagi stacks multiple bonuses onto one body slot, which in RAW states that

Multiple Different Abilities:

(Pg 549, bottom right)
Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character’s body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.

The wording on this is incredibly vague especially when you take into consideration items like Robe of the Archmagi that stack multiple different abilities onto the same item. Which powers receive the extra 50% cost? Which one is considered the 'first' power (the one that does not receive a cost increase)

The second problem is the cost reduction for alignment and class restriction. I'm assuming that the Robe of the Archmagi also has the two -30% in cost as stated here (Since its Wizard Only, Alignment Restricted)

Other Considerations:

(Pg 549, bottom right)
Other Considerations: Once you have a cost figure, reduce that number if either of the following conditions applies:
Item Requires Skill to Use: Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%.

Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the price
by 30%.

Is the 30% discount subtracted from the original base price twice if there are both class AND alignment restrictions?

math:
(aka subtract 60% of X from X, where X is the base price, put simply X*0.40 )
or is the 30% discount applied to the base price, and then a second discount applied to the discounted price
math:
( (x*0.70=y), (y*70=z) )

To top it all off, the RAW then basically allows for the hand waving of prices, saying

Hand Waving RAW:

(Pg 549-550, bottom right)
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

I hope you can see why uncertainty begins to mount (at least in my mind) when you start stacking multiple abilities and discounts onto one item.

If I was GMing, I'd come up with my own formula for this to tell the truth, but I'm not. My GM actually looks to me for clarification on these rules, since he allows characters with the requisite feats to create their own custom magic items based off the RAW. So I'd like to have a clear understanding of how the discounting and price increases are applied, at the very least.

The whole point of this was to deduce the price of SR as a magic item trait anyways, and failed utterly, so I turn to you, community.

Spoiler: It was possible to deduce a formula for "+X caster level" using some math and precedence set forth by other bonuses.

Some Math:

Orange Ioun Stone: +1 Caster Level 30,000 gp market (15,000 to create)
No Space Limitation: Multiply entire cost by 2 (table 15-29)
Therefore +1 Caster Level= 7,500 (most likely 'bonus squared*7500' if it is permitted to go higher)


Bump


Manufactorum wrote:
Bump

The Robe of the Archmagi has 4 abilities on it:

* +5 armor bonus to AC.
* Spell resistance 18.
* +4 resistance bonus on all saving throws.
* +2 enhancement bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance.

To calculate cost of each of these:
* Armor bonus (enhancement) = bonus squared * 1000gp
* Spell resistance = 10000gp per point over SR12, SR13 minimum
* Save bonus (resistance) = bonus squared * 1000gp
* enhancement bonus on caster level checks vs spell resist = ???

Typically, you would make the base ability be the most expensive (so it doesn't get the 1.5 multiplier).

SR18 = (18-12)*10000 = 60000
+5 AC = (5*5)*1000*1.5 = 37500
+4 Resist = (4*4)*1000*1.5 = 24000

Add these three known ability costs together, shave off 30% for being alignment-restricted, and you get 85050gp. That would be the theoretical cost before you even factored in the cost of overcoming spell resistance. Somehow, I don't think this is a good benchmark to work off of...

~~~

Now, if we assume that the Archmagi were actually rather adept at making their robes (they *may* know a spell or two) and thus found a way to remove the 1.5 multiplier on added abilities...

SR18 = (18-12)*10000 = 60000
+5 AC = (5*5)*1000 = 25000
+4 Resist = (4*4)*1000 = 16000

Total = 101000, take 30% discount --> 70700
(this 30% discount is only taken once, meeting multiple qualifications for the discount in one category doesn't apply the discount multiple times)

Then we factor in the ability to overcome spell resistance using that number and the base price:
75000=70700+0.7*x
4300=0.7x
~6143=x

So from that math, it costs ~3071gp per +1 bonus to CL to overcome spell resistance. I'm still of the mind that the Robe isn't a good benchmark to reverse-engineer :-/


Creating your own items you should rarely if ever get discounts on the price since these typically are no real hindrance at all, the developers have been very clear on that, even though some existing items do have this discount they are usually more complicated items/packages not providing the perfect synergy a created item would.

The SR an item grants can be taekn from the armor special qualities list without modification needed for most items.

EDIT: I just reread and saw you meant the spell penetration effect


Remco Sommeling wrote:

Creating your own items you should rarely if ever get discounts on the price since these typically are no real hindrance at all, the developers have been very clear on that, even though some existing items do have this discount they are usually more complicated items/packages not providing the perfect synergy a created item would.

The SR an item grants can be taekn from the armor special qualities list without modification needed for most items.

Please post a link to where the developers state that you should not be able to create custom magic items using the discounts that are written into the rules.

As far as using the SR from the Magic Armor page... That's certainly an interesting thought, but the Robe isn't armor, it's a wondrous item. Yes, it does occupy the body slot like armor would, but I'm not aware of any rules or precedence that's been set to allow for a wondrous item to be enchanted with magic armor/weapon properties.

Assuming that this you are correct as to where the SR comes from, though...
SR17 = +4 bonus, SR19 = +5 bonus
Let's count the SR18 on the robe as a +5 bonus (25000gp cost)

SR18 (+5 armor enchant) = 25000
+5 AC = (5*5)*1000*1.5 = 37500
+4 Resist = (4*4)*1000*1.5 = 24000
Total = 86500, shave off 30% --> 60550

75000=60550+0.7(x*1.5)
14450=0.7(x*1.5)
~20643=1.5x
13762=x

In this case, the cost per +1 to overcome spell resistance would be ~6881gp.


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It's more simple than that. Spell penetration is a feat. AFAIK the only items that grant feats are Ioun stones, and they are slotless so double cost. Half the price of a dark blue rhomboid ioun stone is 5000 gp, times 1.5 for extra ability so 7500 to add spell penetration to an item.

This is the formula that I use as DM to add any feat to any item. And I do allow my crafters to take one discount (the best one) on an item, as they will take that hit on sale if they decide to sell it down the road. Any found items with class or level restrictions also take the sale penalty, so it balances out.

Edited for clarity


I guess the robe is estimated roughly at 125,000 gold and added a 40% discount on top to take it down to 75,000 gp

SR 60,000 armor 37,500 saves 24,000 would leave just 3,500 gp for the spell penetration, which seems a bit low ish to me.

+5 armor with SR 19 costs 100,000 gp, +5 armor with SR 17 costs 81,000 gp, 91,000 gp seems a fair price as a medium since the items are very similar in function.

91,000 + 24,000 = 115,000 leaving 10,000 gp for the spell penetration, this seems more reasonable, I'd use this number if you want to add this +2 spell penetration on another item.

I would settle for treating it as an enhancement bonus on weapons for purposes of marketprice, or making it a plain 5,000 gp per +1


Pol Mordreth wrote:

It's more simple than that. Spell penetration is a feat. AFAIK the only items that grant feats are Ioun stones, and they are slotless so double cost. Half the price of a dark blue rhomboid ioun stone is 5000 gp, times 1.5 for extra ability so 7500 to add spell penetration to an item.

This is the formula that I use as DM to add any feat to any item. And I do allow my crafters to take one discount (the best one) on an item, as they will take that hit on sale if they decide to sell it down the road. Any found items with class or level restrictions also take the sale penalty, so it balances out.

Edited for clarity

This seems like the best solution by far. Good post.


AerynTahlro wrote:
Please post a link to where the developers state that you should not be able to create custom magic items using the discounts that are written into the rules.

Right here.


see wrote:
AerynTahlro wrote:
Please post a link to where the developers state that you should not be able to create custom magic items using the discounts that are written into the rules.
Right here.

OK, that's not stating that you CAN'T use the discount, it's referencing that you shouldn't use it to cheese the system.

If it logically makes sense for an item to be alignment/class restricted, then restricting it and reducing the price is fine. But trying to add the discount onto any random item just to reduce the price is not fine.


Pol Mordreth wrote:

It's more simple than that. Spell penetration is a feat. AFAIK the only items that grant feats are Ioun stones, and they are slotless so double cost. Half the price of a dark blue rhomboid ioun stone is 5000 gp, times 1.5 for extra ability so 7500 to add spell penetration to an item.

This is the formula that I use as DM to add any feat to any item. And I do allow my crafters to take one discount (the best one) on an item, as they will take that hit on sale if they decide to sell it down the road. Any found items with class or level restrictions also take the sale penalty, so it balances out.

Edited for clarity

I think this makes the most sense too. Nicely done.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Never let players use the item restriction discount on items.

The discount should only come up for extremely specific items which have some history behind them.

If the player is intentionaly making an iconic item it would be ok but never for a single shot item.

Example:

Peter high priest of Iomedi wants to equip the paladins of his order with a special shield. I would let him have the bonus after he has given out five of them.

Holy Shield of Iomedi (Paladins only)
+5 Heavy Shield
SR 17

25000+50000 = 75,000/2 = 37500 (first 5)

37500 * .7 = 26250


dulsin wrote:

The discount should only come up for extremely specific items which have some history behind them.

If the player is intentionaly making an iconic item it would be ok but never for a single shot item.

As I said...

AerynTahlro wrote:
If it logically makes sense for an item to be alignment/class restricted, then restricting it and reducing the price is fine. But trying to add the discount onto any random item just to reduce the price is not fine.


I don't think anyone is arguing that cheezing items to have multiple built in discounts 'just because' should be allowed. As someone else said, it would have to make sense.

My question regarding discounts was HOW they were applied exactly when you are doing class AND alignment restricted. Subtract 30% of the base price twice (in essence 60% off)? Or subtract 30% from base price, then subtract 30% from the discounted price (this method gives a smaller discount)?

The RAW really needs more than just one sentence in this case.

Discount Rule:
Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the price by 30%.


AerynTahlro wrote:


OK, that's not stating that you CAN'T use the discount, it's referencing that you shouldn't use it to cheese the system.

If it logically makes sense for an item to be alignment/class restricted, then restricting it and reducing the price is fine. But trying to add the discount onto any random item just to reduce the price is not fine.

I would still recommend avoiding use of the discount on the crafting cost. If the limitation isn't really limiting, it shouldn't be worth a discount. So if the wizard making items makes them for himself and makes them wizard only, even if only a wizard realistically could benefit from the item, the restriction is pretty much meaningless. He gets the full benefit from the item and gets to save money making it to boot.


Manufactorum wrote:
My question regarding discounts was HOW they were applied exactly when you are doing class AND alignment restricted. Subtract 30% of the base price twice (in essence 60% off)? Or subtract 30% from base price, then subtract 30% from the discounted price (this method gives a smaller discount)?

The text states:

"Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the price by 30%."
This states a reduction in "price", which is the base retail/market price of the item.

You can go in one of two directions from that.
1: A reduction in the market price of the item correlates to the crafting price.
Crafting Cost = (MarketValue*0.7)/2

2: As it is not explicitly stated that this discount applies to crafting cost (either by method 1 or by applying a 30% discount to the crafting cost), it can be argued that the discounts only apply at market value level. Restricting the item still makes the original item, which requires certain spells, abilities, and materials. Restricting the item just reduces the market value of the item, as it is harder to sell that +2 Charisma Paladin-only Headband than it is to sell a regular +2 Charisma headband.

Edit: The more I think about it, the more option 2 makes sense... but the linked post from Sean Reynolds above seems to indicate that players can reduce the crafting costs of items through these discounts... confusing...


Aeryn: Again, I use #1. Simply put, what you quoted enables you to find the final base price of the item. Referring to the general creation rules:

Pathfinder Core p549 wrote:

Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp. For many items, the market price equals the base price.

Armor, shields, weapons, and items with value independent
of their magically enhanced properties add their item cost to
the market price. The item cost does not influence the base
price (which determines the cost of magic supplies), but it
does increase the final market price.

(Bolding mine)

So cost to create would take into account the discount.

@Dulsin: thats your house rule, and I understand it. However, its not RAW (though it might be RAI)

@Bill Dunn: Meh. If the crafters want to build in discounts, so be it. A reduction in cost to create of 15% is peanuts compared to the reduction in letting them craft at all.

PS: i love alignment restricted items... My house rule is that they show up on detect alignment spells with an aura = 2x caster level. The bad guys can pick you out for miles. I also rule that any item with a discount shines like a torch.


Pol Mordreth wrote:

Aeryn: Again, I use #1. Simply put, what you quoted enables you to find the final base price of the item. Referring to the general creation rules:

Pathfinder Core p549 wrote:

Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp.

So cost to create would take into account the discount.

That's actually how we work it in my playgroup as well. Until the devs come back and clarify all of the magic item creation rules (which are in SERIOUS need of clarification on every level), it will be interpreted the best way possible.

I listed the #2 interpretation because I've noticed this wonderful trend on these forums where if you don't list out all of the possibilities of a ruling in question when gray area is involved, someone will come along and start a righteous argument about how wrong you are. :-/

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