The Pimp Hand and it's applications


Advice


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Its been hinted at slightly in the thread for sap mastery optimization, but no one came right out and said it, so I repeat it here for edification.

You can make an awesome Rogue with the scout and thug archetypes that will have your foes running from you in terror after you slap their fillings out.

I call it The Pimp for reasons that should be obvious

Here is how the build comes together:

Human Rogue (Scout, Thug)

Feats:
1st: Improved Unarmed Strike
Human Bonus: Sap Adept
3rd: Knockout Artist
5th: Sap Mastery

Rogue Talents:
2nd: Finesse Rogue
4th: Combat Trick (Enforcer)

So at 5th level, whenever you charge someone, they are flatfooted (thanks to scout). Since they are flat footed, you deal double nonlethal sneak attack damage (6d6, thanks to sap mastery).

Since you were using your pimp-hand to deal the damage, you deal 1.5 times your level in extra damage due to sap adept and knockout artist. (In this case at level 5, 9 extra damage)

Now Enforcer comes into play, you can intimidate your foe as a free action, because you dealth nonlethal damage (Hope you didn't dump cha). If you succeed, they are shaken for a number of rounds based on the damage you just did (6d6 + 9 minimum), so lets say, forever, basically.
Thats -2 to attacks, skills, saves.

...Or you could switch all those rounds of shaken for one round of frightend where:

Quote:

A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear.

Which is basically taking any enemy out of the fight for one round, guarunteed and best part is, no save. And since the target for intimidate is static (10 + HD + wis mod), boost it enough (I recommend a cane that gives you an enhancement bonus to intimidate) and you don't have to worry about the enemy making a lucky roll.

So, really, at the very least a rogue build that doesn't in any way, suck.

prototype00


In D&D there was a spell called Bigby's Slapping Hand, which my group referred to as The Pimp Hand.

As for your rogue idea... Interesting concept, to say the least.


Wrong, sir. The enemy is not flat footed, merely treated as being flat footed for the purpose of sneak attack. Sap mastery will not trigger. However, I do like your build and had a similar build not too long ago with the scout and the swashbuckler to great effectiveness. A good roll could net me between 50-60+ damage in one turn with my greatsword and it's enhancements. And that was spring attacking with only one attack per round.

It's a great build, and you could get more damage than that at higher levels.


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Quote:
Wrong, sir. The enemy is not flat footed, merely treated as being flat footed for the purpose of sneak attack. Sap mastery will not trigger.

Sap master is part of the sneak attack damage, the sneak attack damage is as if flat footed, so sap master triggers.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
Wrong, sir. The enemy is not flat footed, merely treated as being flat footed for the purpose of sneak attack. Sap mastery will not trigger.
Sap master is part of the sneak attack damage, the sneak attack damage is as if flat footed, so sap master triggers.

"as if flatfooted" and being flat footed is different, no?


Matt Stich wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
Wrong, sir. The enemy is not flat footed, merely treated as being flat footed for the purpose of sneak attack. Sap mastery will not trigger.
Sap master is part of the sneak attack damage, the sneak attack damage is as if flat footed, so sap master triggers.
"as if flatfooted" and being flat footed is different, no?

... Mighty fine hair you're splitting there is my first thought.

Not that you don't have a point, but if an enemy is for all intents and purposes flat footed to my attack (I guess they say as if flat footed, so that the poor sod isn't flat footed to everyone's attack, just mine), I can apply everything that applies if they were flat footed, no?

prototype00


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Matt Stich wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
Wrong, sir. The enemy is not flat footed, merely treated as being flat footed for the purpose of sneak attack. Sap mastery will not trigger.
Sap master is part of the sneak attack damage, the sneak attack damage is as if flat footed, so sap master triggers.
"as if flatfooted" and being flat footed is different, no?

After checking the Scout feature... I kinda have to agree with Matt on this one.

The feature states that you "apply sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed." This means your sneak attack applies, but the target isn't actually flat-footed. To me, the intent is only to let you get your bonus damage, not to get rider-effects based on flat-footed status. In fact, the target isn't even denied his dex bonus by this. You just get the bonus damage, and nothing more.

If they wanted the target to get all the penalties of being flat-footed they could have easily just said "treat the target as flat-footed against your charge," and there would be no ambiguity... but they didn't. So I'm left to assume they worded it this way for a reason.

Edit, since prototype ninja'd me: @prototype Here's the thing. The wording says you apply damage as if the target were flat-footed. It doesn't say it "is flat-footed", it doesn't say "consider it flat-footed," it only (and rather specifically) gives you permission to apply damage as though it were flat-footed. Any other effect that rides on flat-footed targets isn't included by the stated rule exception.


"as if flatfooted" and being flat footed is different, no?

Yes, in so far as the person you're attacking can still make attacks of opportunity, use held actions, use immediate actions. That's the only difference between the two.

If you sneak attack them as if they were flat footed and your sneak attack has extra dice/whatever against flat footed targets then those abilities function.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

"as if flatfooted" and being flat footed is different, no?

Yes, in so far as the person you're attacking can still make attacks of opportunity, use held actions, use immediate actions. That's the only difference between the two.

If you sneak attack them as if they were flat footed and your sneak attack has extra dice/whatever against flat footed targets then those abilities function.

The reason I bring up the difference in wording is because every time I see a thread on the boards that has that wording, everyone agrees that you are not flat-footed (or whatever the argument was about) and I just extrapolated from that.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

"as if flatfooted" and being flat footed is different, no?

Yes, in so far as the person you're attacking can still make attacks of opportunity, use held actions, use immediate actions. That's the only difference between the two.

If you sneak attack them as if they were flat footed and your sneak attack has extra dice/whatever against flat footed targets then those abilities function.

This.

The scout ability says that you deal damage as if they were flat footed. All sap mastery does is if they are flat footed, it deals more damage.

It doesn't make them prone, or become nauseous or do a little jig or whatever.

It just deals damage, and since they are treated as if they are flat footed, then sap mastery deals double sneak attack damage.

prototype00


I love it!

Unfortunately, your unarmed strike isn't considered a melee weapon unless you're a Monk. This means that Enforcer, Sap Adept and Sap Master don't work with unarmed strike.

Improved Unarmed Strike merely allows your unarmed attack to deal lethal damage, and removes the AoO that would otherwise be caused by your unarmed attack. It doesn't cause your unarmed strike to be considered a weapon.

For that, you need the monk's Unarmed Strike class ability. Among other things,

Core Rulebook wrote:
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

That said, most GMs should allow this nonetheless. If not, use a sap and pretend you're not :)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

You're responding to a nearly 7 year old thread, the discussion has long since ended.


Kinithin wrote:

I love it!

Unfortunately, your unarmed strike isn't considered a melee weapon unless you're a Monk. This means that Enforcer, Sap Adept and Sap Master don't work with unarmed strike.

Improved Unarmed Strike merely allows your unarmed attack to deal lethal damage, and removes the AoO that would otherwise be caused by your unarmed attack. It doesn't cause your unarmed strike to be considered a weapon.

For that, you need the monk's Unarmed Strike class ability. Among other things,

Core Rulebook wrote:
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

That said, most GMs should allow this nonetheless. If not, use a sap and pretend you're not :)

Holy s&&~, this necromancy skill is of the chart! Either way, you are not 100% right. You can take weapon focus with unarmed strike, it has an entree in the weapon list stating it is a bludgeoning weapon. I would say it is a weapon.

True, you are not considered armed and it is up for debate if certain spells work, but Unarmed Strike is a weapon for sure. I think the emphasis of the monk text is on:

Core Rulebook wrote:
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapon or natural weapon.

I think that the monks unarmed strike is the only unarmed strike that is considered a manufactured- and a natural weapon. Instead of just the natural weapon (empty fists), or manufactured (gauntlet).


Since that thread came back to life, I like to warn that a player in one of the campaign I'm actualy playing did exactly what the OP suggested... and asked my GM the right to throw his character away at level 6.

The main problem with this idea is it ENTIERLY depend of sneak attack, a mechanic against which a large part of Pathfinder's Bestiary is immune.

This is already a huge problem for a standard rogue, but this particular build make it even worst: it must invest so much into it to become relevant compared to say... what a simple barbarian does as an attacker, that when the party encounter foes immune to sneak attacks, or non-lethal damage, the player only could sit down and wait the end of the encounter, dying or boredom, while his teamates struggled to win with only 3 members.

The player commented the situation like this: "A simple barbarian does as much as me against non-immune creatures and stay relevant against almost everything in the bestiary while being 3 times thougher my character is.... And the investigator I use in another campaign outperform this rogue in every field: utility, against creatures vulnerable to precision attacks, and against creature immune to precision attacks..."

He truly was disappointed... and as a teamate who watched his struggle during more than 20 sessions, I will also advise that ANY build based on sneak attack is a poor idea.


Moonheart wrote:

Since that thread came back to life, I like to warn that a player in one of the campaign I'm actualy playing did exactly what the OP suggested... and asked my GM the right to throw his character away at level 6.

The main problem with this idea is it ENTIERLY depend of sneak attack, a mechanic against which a large part of Pathfinder's Bestiary is immune.

so far as I can tell only oozes and elementals are completely immune to sneak attack. Just because a creature is immune to crits, it does not mean it's immune to precision damage.

It's true that when the group is fighting those types of creatures the rogue isn't going to be able to sneak attack, but given that these types tend to be weak against specific elemental damage, the fight should go quicker anyway if the party is well prepared.

I created a high level rogue for a convention game and used a build similar to the one listed above. I followed the feat tree to get shattered defenses and combined it with enforcer. Even when the creature was immune to nonlethal damage I could still use dazzling display (a pre-requisite for shattered defenses) to sneak attack without needing a flanking partner or having to rely on a feint.


- there are those immune to precision attacks (Elemental, Incoporeal, Ooze, Protean...)
- then those litteraly immune to weapons (like swarms)
- then those you can't reach in melee (flying, people throwing attacks from a place without a path to reach, and more...)
- then those immune to lethal damage
- then those with special class abilities negating opportunities to do sneak attacks (like other rogues, or barbarian, and again some other class/archetypes)
- then... then...

That build is a one-trick pony using the trick that has the highest number of possible way to be neutralized entierly of all the game... and adds to it several way to neutrlaize hal of it (like creature without a mind, that your cannot neither feint or intimidate).

And this build is not even doing impressive results at all. A simple barbarian outperform it.


Most if not all of those other situations can be negated and if a rogue is dependent on sneak attack for their damage then they need to invest in the items that will allow them to continue to sneak attack. If the rogue isn't doing this, then it's the rogue's fault they are ineffective not the sneak attack mechanic.

Incorporal -> ghost touch
Protean -> it's only a 50% chance so you're not completely negated
Swarms -> Fair enough, but they screw over all non-casters so it's not like a rogue is going to be any less effective than a fighter in a similar situation.
flying -> there are so many magic items that let you fly that this shouldn't be an issue, additionally you can sneak attack with a bow at any range via snipers goggles.

Other-> the 2 specific examples you gave are level dependent, meaning its only an issue if the rogue is going up against a higher level "rogue". When you consider that when the levels are reversed the lower level enemies get similarly screwed against the rogue this seems balanced (though understandably annoying).

if a player builds their character to be good at tactic A and doesn't make any preparation for when tactic A won't work then it's the player's fault if they suddenly become useless in a fight and that's true of any class.

No matter how awesome you are at a thing, you should always have contingencies for when that awesome thing doesn't work as normal.


Sneak attacks, even with that build, are not even awesome when they work, and they have more contigencies where they won't that ANY other mechanic in the game.

I've seen the build work on the field. It's weak, and it's unreliable.
You could be lucky with encounters, but otherwise, it's a weight dragging the team down.

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