Hey,
I just had a few questions about the prime directive,
I have been netflixing tng,voyager and amazoning deep space 9
there has been quite a few instances of the various crews helping planets, avoid, asteroids comet, ect that will strike a planet.
is this against the prime directive? or does that only apply to pre warp societies? this seems like a natural evolution to me?
or non members of the federation? or am I not reading my starfleet general order 1 correct?
In truth, the prime directive has not been fully articulated in any of the ST series, just mentioned in generalities. I suspect the prime directive, if written out, is more than a paragraph or two and most likely a huge, bloody rulebook.
Also note that on those generalities we know about, Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Janeway have broken the prime directive one or more times.
That tells me the prime directive is either more detailed in regards to inclusions and exclusions than what has been stated in the series
Or it is accepted practice for Starfleet captains to end run the rules and regulations (in the name of plot).
In any case, my understanding of the prime directive is that overt interference in the development/evolution of pre-warp sentients is forbidden. Notice the word 'overt'. That means deflecting an asteroid that will strike a pre-warp world from far out in space from the planet (because no one on the planet can see it) is fair ball but beaming down to a pre-warp city to install a ground based asteriod deflector is crossing the line.
In truth, the prime directive has not been fully articulated in any of the ST series, just mentioned in generalities. I suspect the prime directive, if written out, is more than a paragraph or two and most likely a huge, bloody rulebook.
Also note that on those generalities we know about, Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Janeway have broken the prime directive one or more times.
That tells me the prime directive is either more detailed in regards to inclusions and exclusions than what has been stated in the series
Or it is accepted practice for Starfleet captains to end run the rules and regulations (in the name of plot).
In any case, my understanding of the prime directive is that overt interference in the development/evolution of pre-warp sentients is forbidden. Notice the word 'overt'. That means deflecting an asteroid that will strike a pre-warp world from far out in space from the planet (because no one on the planet can see it) is fair ball but beaming down to a pre-warp city to install a ground based asteriod deflector is crossing the line.
what about deflecting an asteroid to warp society that needs the federations help?
or a warp society that is not a member of the federation?here is the prime directive:
form wikipedia
As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Star Fleet personnel may interfere with the normal and healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes introducing superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Star Fleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship, unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation.[4]
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The Bajoran's received all kinds of Federation help without being a member. So I would say that it would not violate the prime directive of a warp tech culture to assist them. As posted above I assume that there would be no violation of the prime directive in aiding a pre-warp tech culture as long as there were no direct interference with the culture of the people. Unless you assume "no Star Fleet personnel may interfere with the normal and healthy development of alien life and culture." means letting the culture be wiped out because that's "normal".
IIRC, the strongest exploration of the Prime Directive was in the TNG episode FIRST CONTACT in Season 4 (not the movie). In that case, it was clearly in force because the alien planet did not know about the existence of aliens, was pre-warp and pre-interstellar contact.
In the movie FIRST CONTACT, OTOH, the Vulcans deem Earth worthy of contact only once it has achieved warp technology. Whilst this is pre-Federation, the Vulcans being founding members would infer that their approach would at least be considered in any formulation of the Directive.
Clearly the PD even applies to post-starflight civilisations. In those cases it appears that those races must ask for help from the Federation (like the Klingons asking the Federation for aid in surviving the destruction of Praxis in ST6 or those guys in the TNG ep DEJA Q asking the Federation to help deflect the inbound asteroid) before receiving it. Similarly, after the Cardassians had occupied Bajor and withdrawn, the Bajorans asked for Federation aid. In addition, the Bajoran situation was desperate because of a prior violation of the Prime Directive (i.e. the Cardassian invasion of Bajor in the first place), and the PD allows Federation personnel to interfere as far as it reduces or eliminates the effects of a prior interference.
In short, the basic principal of the PD is that interference retards or artificially accelerates the growth of a species, but this is only firmly entrenched with regards to pre-starflight, pre-contact races. Once that race knows about the existence of the Federation and is in contact with them, the PD becomes as flexible as the plot of episode requires :-)
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Also worth noting that for some strange and bizarre reason, the Prime Directive does not apply to Federation civilians.
Not that surprising when you realise that the federation is more like the UN than an actual government. It makes decisions that influence it's members, but doesn't have direct control of them.
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In the movie FIRST CONTACT, OTOH, the Vulcans deem Earth worthy of contact only once it has achieved warp technology. Whilst this is pre-Federation, the Vulcans being founding members would infer that their approach would at least be considered in any formulation of the Directive.
Bloody Space-elves.
Given the social inequality inherent in the lack of equal distribution of warp technology amongst humans at this moment, contact is more likely to have resulted in a millitary ruling body in control of the Warp Technology post contact. Starfleet is socialogically inevitable.
Imagine what would have happened if it had fallen into the hands of the Corporate Sector. Some Megacorp would own space and the inventor of Warp would not be on a beach - he would be dead ten seconds after he sold them the tech. Bill Gates the Third would be ruiling Earth from his Warp Capable Space Palace.
They just follow or ignore as they feel like.
How and when the PD is applied changes depending on the needs of the story’s plot not on any rational legal or moral basis.
The Federation also declined involvement in the Cardassian occupation of Bajor, again citing the prime directive.
The Cardassians had invaded Bajor before either the Cardassians or Bajor made contact with the Federation. When the Federation and Cardassians did make contact, the result was a very bloody war (the one O'Brien fought in) that ended in a peace treaty. My guess is that the treaty - like most of these things - would mark out borders and spheres of influence, preventing the Federation from intervening in the Bajoran situation (though note that the Federation did provide some assistance to Bajoran refugees in several TNG episodes).
The PD in that case doesn't sound like it should have applied, as another outside force had already interfered with Bajor's development. But, as others have said, TREK is notoriously inconsistent with how the PD is used.
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It's an easy way to generate a story. It's followed/ignored as needed for the story because we've seen evidence of it.
Within Star Trek however, it's usually followed by Picard because he has an extremely strong sense of law and order and values the laws and guidelines of the Federation.
Janeway disregarded it often (I actually don't know as I barely watched Voyager) because she did not have the luxury of bypassing supplies due to their position.
I don't recall Sisko ever having to deal with it, and I barely watched TOS.
It's an easy way to generate a story. It's followed/ignored as needed for the story because we've seen evidence of it.
Within Star Trek however, it's usually followed by Picard because he has an extremely strong sense of law and order and values the laws and guidelines of the Federation.
Picard followed Prime Directive: Plot Device. He violated or stood firm on it as it benefited the episode.
MY one example, is in voyager where they help the society, with asteroids falling, and it turns out the asteroids are man made.
wouldn't helping that society violate the non interference protocol,
MAYBE I am mistaking the PD for just technology sharing.
MY one example, is in voyager where they help the society, with asteroids falling, and it turns out the asteroids are man made.
wouldn't helping that society violate the non interference protocol,
MAYBE I am mistaking the PD for just technology sharing.
Voyager abandoned the prime directive literally on day one. Destroying the caretaker's array and stranding themselves in the delta quadrant was a clear violation. Then Janeway proceeded to tear violently into starfleet ideals right up until the series finale where she commited genocide.
So yea, voyager is an attrocious standard to judge the prime directive by. Picard (tv show picard, not movie picard) is a far better measuring stick there.
MY one example, is in voyager where they help the society, with asteroids falling, and it turns out the asteroids are man made.
wouldn't helping that society violate the non interference protocol,
MAYBE I am mistaking the PD for just technology sharing.
Voyager abandoned the prime directive literally on day one. Destroying the caretaker's array and stranding themselves in the delta quadrant was a clear violation. Then Janeway proceeded to tear violently into starfleet ideals right up until the series finale where she commited genocide.
So yea, voyager is an attrocious standard to judge the prime directive by. Picard (tv show picard, not movie picard) is a far better measuring stick there.
careful! i have not finished it yet i am still on season 6
Yeah, morals have a bad habit of being the first things jettisoned in a survival situation.
So yea, voyager is an attrocious standard to judge the prime directive by. Picard (tv show picard, not movie picard) is a far better measuring stick there.
which is strange to me, because janeway is pretty hardcore about the PD,
she hunts down captain ransom, that guy violates the prime directive like a winner! maybe i have a bad understanding of the PD
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There is the law, and there is case law.
The PD is the law, but to make sense of this law, you must also looks at all the cases where a judgement regarding this law was made.
Unless it's possible to follow the chain of command and ask for the judgement of a superior, each captain is judge aboard his own ship. In which case, the captain will be judged by Starfleet when his interpretation of the PD will reach a superior officer.
Janeway is in contact (in the first few seasons of Voyager) with no superiors, so she is the final authority on the Voyager as to the interpretation of the PD, until she reaches federation space again. Her calls and interpretations will then be included in the Starfleet case law about the PD, and she'll be judged accordingly.
The fact she was stranded away so long wil certainly create a new jurisprudence in order to apply the PD to those rare cases where the chain of command is broken for a very long time.
Janeway was in an uncomfortable position that in order to make new allies required to survive, she was going to have to compromise something, especially in situations where she basically had to pick sides in a fight she knew little about. Picard had the advantage that for the most part, someone else had already done a lot of that work for him, and the overall picture amongst the space races was much clearer and more well known to the Federation.
EDIT:The PD works just fine when you're already in charge. When you find yourself in a situation like Janeway did where you have to earn your place, it doesn't work so well, because if you follow it precisely, you'll never get anywhere.
Yeah, morals have a bad habit of being the first things jettisoned in a survival situation.
So yea, voyager is an attrocious standard to judge the prime directive by. Picard (tv show picard, not movie picard) is a far better measuring stick there.
which is strange to me, because janeway is pretty hardcore about the PD,
she hunts down captain ransom, that guy violates the prime directive like a winner! maybe i have a bad understanding of the PD
It seems to me most of the time it was less about survival and more about subjective morality. The prime directive is objective, strict and cold. It is in many ways immoral. It requires you allow people to die, or to let tryanny run it's course. Most of the time, Janeways violations of the prime directive were moral in nature. In fact in the biggest case (the opening of the series) her violation of the prime directive puts the survival of voyager in question instead of the other way around.
careful! i have not finished it yet i am still on season 6
If you don't want to know, don't ask. Both shows have been off the air for over a decade. Spoiler alerts don't apply.
And oh by the way, Luke's dad was Vader.
I was in a coma for 10 years! I just woke up last month!
I was in a coma for 10 years! I just woke up last month!
careful! i have not finished it yet i am still on season 6
If you don't want to know, don't ask. Both shows have been off the air for over a decade. Spoiler alerts don't apply.
And oh by the way, Luke's dad was Vader.
no not really i just got it on netflix sigh
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Yeah, morals have a bad habit of being the first things jettisoned in a survival situation.
So yea, voyager is an attrocious standard to judge the prime directive by. Picard (tv show picard, not movie picard) is a far better measuring stick there.
which is strange to me, because janeway is pretty hardcore about the PD,
she hunts down captain ransom, that guy violates the prime directive like a winner! maybe i have a bad understanding of the PD
I don't know that hunting down Ransom was so much about the PD as it was about the fact that he had kidnapped some of her crew, was intent on committing genocide of an unknown alien race, and had turned that race against her crew as well. Ransom was a mass murdering kidnapper and that is why Janeway hunted him down.
I think quite a few people are ignoring other directives. One is to provide aid when needed. A ship in trouble sending out a distress call will be answered by a nearby federation ship. How the interaction goes after that initial emergency is dealt with is then covered by the Prime Directive.
One such example is in the Voyager episode "Repentance", where they saved a ship load of people only to find out it was a prison ship with the prisoners going to be punished in ways not in accordance with Federation policy. Voyager could not directly interfere with the punishment, even though they disagreed with it, they could only provide shelter and transport until the people could be put on another transport.
As to the destruction to the caretaker's array, I seem to remember that the Kazon weren't going to let Voyager study the array to get sent home. So their choices were:
Basically, there was no way to not interfere, either through direct action or indirect action by allowing the Kazon access to the array. They tried to tread a fine line by doing what they saw as the least amount of damage.
I think quite a few people are ignoring other directives. One is to provide aid when needed. A ship in trouble sending out a distress call will be answered by a nearby federation ship. How the interaction goes after that initial emergency is dealt with is then covered by the Prime Directive.
One such example is in the Voyager episode "Repentance", where they saved a ship load of people only to find out it was a prison ship with the prisoners going to be punished in ways not in accordance with Federation policy. Voyager could not directly interfere with the punishment, even though they disagreed with it, they could only provide shelter and transport until the people could be put on another transport.
As to the destruction to the caretaker's array, I seem to remember that the Kazon weren't going to let Voyager study the array to get sent home. So their choices were:
Destroy the Kazon, study the array, and go home.
Abandon the array and let the Kazon study it.
Destroy the array and keep it out of the hands of the Kazon, but also not killing the Kazon. Basically, there was no way to not interfere, either through direct action or indirect action by allowing the Kazon access to the array. They tried to tread a fine line by doing what they saw as the least amount of damage.
I dont think thats how it went. I distinctly remember tuvok saying he had sorted out the array and that he needed something like half an hour to activate it (this was after they had fended off the first wave of kazon's ships with a suicidal run by chakotay(sp?). If she didnt have a choice, it wouldn't have been as interesting a premise as it was.
I like voyager, it is more interesting than tng and ds9
i really liked enterprise but i am not through all the series yet all I ma watching them in snc 3 episodes here, three episodes of tng here.
Enterprise is interesting, but it goes shark jumping at one point and then never stops.
Enterprise is interesting, but it goes shark jumping at one point and then never stops.
Yea i liked the first like 2 seasons of enterprise...but then i dunno, the writers drank some bad coolaid. I feel like I want to go back and watch it again, just to see if i am remembering right (since i didnt watch it religiously and missed episodes in the middle of things)
I dont think thats how it went. I distinctly remember tuvok saying he had sorted out the array and that he needed something like half an hour to activate it (this was after they had fended off the first wave of kazon's ships with a suicidal run by chakotay(sp?). If she didnt have a choice, it wouldn't have been as interesting a premise as it was.
Actually he said it would "take several hours to activate." To which Janeway said to the caretaker, "Unless you help us." He doesn't and dies. There were still Kazon attacking Voyager at this point. In fact when Janeway tells the Kazon she is going to blow the array up, she tells them them "to move your vessels to a safe distance." She was also told that additional Kazon had been called, no mention of how far away.
I just rewatched the ending again. If someone else wants to watch it again and correct me I'd be happy to look at it another time.
Fairly tame thread necromancy, it has to be said. On SFFWorld a couple of months back a thread was resurrected where the last post was from early 2001. I'm still puzzled as to why the forum kept threads from that long ago or how the heck the person found it :-)
I don't recall Sisko ever having to deal with it, and I barely watched TOS.
In DS9 most of the stories and guest stars came to the station rather than the other way around, so the PD didn't really apply. However, there was a fair amount of discussion about the PD as related to the amount of assistance the Federation could give Bajor as it rebuilt.
DS9 does have the single most eyebrow-raising moment of PD violation in the history of STAR TREK though:
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I agree with the "reality" of DS9. I often wondered how the spooks would handle Seven-of-Nine "Look, we've all this borg technology in a catsuit, how can we study it?"
Question (spoiler for the OP)
Fairly tame thread necromancy, it has to be said. On SFFWorld a couple of months back a thread was resurrected where the last post was from early 2001. I'm still puzzled as to why the forum kept threads from that long ago or how the heck the person found it :-)
I don't recall Sisko ever having to deal with it, and I barely watched TOS.In DS9 most of the stories and guest stars came to the station rather than the other way around, so the PD didn't really apply. However, there was a fair amount of discussion about the PD as related to the amount of assistance the Federation could give Bajor as it rebuilt.
DS9 does have the single most eyebrow-raising moment of PD violation in the history of STAR TREK though:
** spoiler omitted **
I am not sure that is the most eyebrow-raising moment of PD violation.
the major portion of the prime directive as I understand it deals with non-space fairing civilizations, that is where the strictest portion of it is located. By definition starfleet MUST deal with other powers in the galaxy, and the line, and even regulations of any kind are far less clear on what is or isnt covered by the prime directive there.
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That Voyager made even any vague attempt to hold onto the Prime Directive was rather ridiculous. You're out in potentially (and often confirmed) enemy terrirtory, you do what you can to get back to your own territory, by hook or crook.
I somewhat agree with this. Most of the PD affected cultures (pre-warp) won't have stuff you want. The stuff you do want, you steal (preferably via transporter).
"Captain, scanners indicate a large chunk of unobtanium on the planet's surface. Looks like they mine it."
"Can we beam a survey team down to an unpopulated area and obtain some?"
"Doesn't look like it, ma'am."
"Then lock on to a shipment of refined unobtanium in transit and beam it to the cargo hold. They'll just have an alien abduction story."
That said, Voyager should have been assimilating technology into the ship. Weapons from here, shields from there, etc etc.
Alternate Voyager spoiler.