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I was wondering if anyone can explain to me why spells with the acid descriptor, such as Acid Arrow and Acid Splash, bypass a creatures SR?
Also, is there a rule somewhere that states that all acid spells get to do this?
Thanks.
The orb spells are what got me looking into the whole rules set in the first place.
The 3.5 DMG and Rules Compendium seem to state they conjuration spell ignore SR unless the conjure an energy type, of which I would have thought acid was.
I'm basically leaning towards houseruling that they still need to overcome SR based on those books, but was wondering if I'm being too unfair?
Being acid, cold, fire and so on has no bearing on SR. The source is what determines it. Evocation creates magical forms of these. Conjuration creates nonmagical forms. The advantage of evocation is that a blasting(damage dealing) evocation spell is normally doing more damage than a conjuration spell that does damage with energy.
The orb spells are what got me looking into the whole rules set in the first place.
The 3.5 DMG and Rules Compendium seem to state they conjuration spell ignore SR unless the conjure an energy type, of which I would have thought acid was.
I'm basically leaning towards houseruling that they still need to overcome SR based on those books, but was wondering if I'm being too unfair?
Acid Arrow and Acid Splash are from the conjuration school of magic which follows what the DMG and Rules Compendium said about ignoring SR.
Being acid, cold, fire and so on has no bearing on SR. The source is what determines it. Evocation creates magical forms of these. Conjuration creates nonmagical forms. The advantage of evocation is that a blasting(damage dealing) evocation spell is normally doing more damage than a conjuration spell that does damage with energy.
See, i have a mental disconnect with this, and always have.
2 wizards both wave their hands around.
Both make acid appear from nowhere.
One gets SR and the other doesn't.
"oh, mine was real acid."
made out of nothing.
by magic.
If you were using Telekinesis to scoop up acid from a bubbling vat and douse someone with it, sure. No SR.
Out of thin air? Come on.
(not directed at you specifically wraith, just one of those things that always bugged me.)
From the SRD...
***Conjuration
These spells are usually not subject to spell resistance unless the spell conjures some form of energy. Spells that summon creatures or produce effects that function like creatures are not subject to spell resistance.***
Its the "unless the spell conjures some form of energy" part that trips me up, and for the most part (minus the orb spells) conjuration spells that conjure other energy types seem to allow for SR rolls. Just acid seems the solid exception.
Being acid, cold, fire and so on has no bearing on SR. The source is what determines it. Evocation creates magical forms of these. Conjuration creates nonmagical forms. The advantage of evocation is that a blasting(damage dealing) evocation spell is normally doing more damage than a conjuration spell that does damage with energy.See, i have a mental disconnect with this, and always have.
2 wizards both wave their hands around.
Both make acid appear from nowhere.
One gets SR and the other doesn't."oh, mine was real acid."
made out of nothing.
by magic.If you were using Telekinesis to scoop up acid from a bubbling vat and douse someone with it, sure. No SR.
Out of thin air? Come on.
(not directed at you specifically wraith, just one of those things that always bugged me.)
I understand. I think the creation of energy should have either been all evocation or all conjuration.
I've always been a little bugged by all that, too. The orb spells were so much better than evocation, it felt broken. Why do evocation at all?
"oh, mine was real acid."
made out of nothing.
by magic.If you were using Telekinesis to scoop up acid from a bubbling vat and douse someone with it, sure. No SR.
Out of thin air? Come on.
I agree. Maybe it can be explained as "teleporting in real acid"? Teleportation is conjuration after all. Not conjuration (creation), but whatever.
In my games, acid arrow is an evocation spell.
I've got no problem with acid being conjuration, thus no SR. Fire, cold, electricity and force are created from nothing (evoked), and not brought in from an elemental plane (conjured).
When acid is evoked, such as with an energy substitution ability, you get SR against it. The damage type is changed, not the spell type.
The acid damage spells are pretty weak for damage spells, so bypassing the SR sorta makes up for that.
I always thought force spells should all be evocations, too, but I don't feel like dying on that hill. It works okay, RAW.
EDIT: There are evocations that require an attack roll, so that's not really the reason the acid spells bypass SR.
acid splash states that :You fire a small orb of acid. You create a physical orb that you have to use a ranged touch to hit with.Unlike a spell that has no miss chance because its magically created and flung or area effected. This is the key difference, that is why changing a Burning hands spell from fire to acid has SR. It has no physcal form it hits no matter what, the subject has to save to be unaffected. The orb is real acid.
I don't agree with that reasoning. What makes the damaging part of these spells seem less real than acid splash, by reading their descriptions?
Ear-Piercing Scream - "You unleash a powerful scream, inaudible to all but a single target."Pain Strike - "Pain strike racks the targeted creature with agony"
Ice Storm - "Great magical hailstones pound down upon casting this spell, dealing 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 2d6 points of cold damage to every creature in the area. "
Burning Disarm - "This spell causes a metal object to instantly become red hot. // the hot metal deals 1d4 points of fire damage per caster level" <- Why is the damage from magically heated mundane steel less real than that from magically created mundane acid?
Shatter - "Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, non-magical objects; sunders a single solid, non-magical object; or damages a crystalline creature." <- Why is magically created sound less real than magically created acid?
Shocking Grasp, Scorching Ray, Frigid Touch, and a whole bunch of other spells require touch attacks but aren't overly magical in nature.
It's not "SR or attack roll", it's more "Attack roll or Saving throw" - SR allowance is more or less arbitrarily set.
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I was wondering if anyone can explain to me why spells with the acid descriptor, such as Acid Arrow and Acid Splash, bypass a creatures SR?
The general rule is that spells are subject to SR if the spell has a direct effect on the creature being affected by the spell. For the most part, conjuration spells do not directly affect the creature, but instead, they bring into existence an effect and that effect then affects the creature. In particular, conjuration (creation) spells with an instantaneous duration never go away. With acid splash, for example, the acid is brought into existence by the magic and then the work of the magic is done. There is obviously some inconsistency in how that is applied across the board, first stop acid arrow.
The orb spells were originally published in one of the 3.0 floppy splat books. When published there, all, but acid were evocation, not conjuration; all of these evocation spells were subject to SR. When they were rewritten for Complete Arcane and then reprinted in Spell Compendium, they were changed to conjuration (creation) with instantaneous duration and with no SR. I tended to take it as an indication that the designers were no longer following the internal logic of the magic system.
I personally believe that the acid-conjuration association hearkens back to the time when it was Melf's Acid Arrow.
Interestingly, the spell Corrosive Touch is a conjuration(creation) with SR=yes
This may be because it tries to create acid inside the creature, subjecting it to spell resistance.
For Reference: There are some words in Ultimate Magic of each of the various elemental types, All of the Acid Words are Conjuration (Creation) And not subject to SR, all the other elements are Evocation and with one truly terrifying exception all of them are subject to SR (9th level True fire word 20d6 fire damage no save, no SR, terrifying)
As to weather this is a good thing or not: I really appreciate those spells without SR, as they give the low level casters something they can do when faced with a monster with high SR. Yes it may not make the most sense in the world, but I, as both a player and DM, think that they are very much a good thing.
(9th level True fire word 20d6 fire damage no save, no SR, terrifying)
It's a bit of a tangent from the topic, but I wish people would stop saying stuff like this. It's misleading. 20d6 elemental damage at 20th level is extremely weak. This has no save/SR, so instead of extremely weak it's just very weak.
The difference is the attack roll. All those other spells have no chance to miss. you are hit and have to save or have sr repel the effect. The conjuration acid spells actually have an attack roll and that is what makes a difference here.
acid splash states that :You fire a small orb of acid. You create a physical orb that you have to use a ranged touch to hit with.Unlike a spell that has no miss chance because its magically created and flung or area effected. This is the key difference, that is why changing a Burning hands spell from fire to acid has SR. It has no physcal form it hits no matter what, the subject has to save to be unaffected. The orb is real acid.
I don't agree with that reasoning. What makes the damaging part of these spells seem less real than acid splash, by reading their descriptions?
Ear-Piercing Scream - "You unleash a powerful scream, inaudible to all but a single target."
Pain Strike - "Pain strike racks the targeted creature with agony"
Ice Storm - "Great magical hailstones pound down upon casting this spell, dealing 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 2d6 points of cold damage to every creature in the area. "
Burning Disarm - "This spell causes a metal object to instantly become red hot. // the hot metal deals 1d4 points of fire damage per caster level" <- Why is the damage from magically heated mundane steel less real than that from magically created mundane acid?
Shatter - "Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, non-magical objects; sunders a single solid, non-magical object; or damages a crystalline creature." <- Why is magically created sound less real than magically created acid?
Shocking Grasp, Scorching Ray, Frigid Touch, and a whole bunch of other spells require touch attacks but aren't overly magical in nature.It's not "SR or attack roll", it's more "Attack roll or Saving throw" - SR allowance is more or less arbitrarily set.
Scorching ray has an attack roll.
I houserule the spells that allow no SR unless they deal physical damage , conjuration does not need direct damage spells anyway, just leave that to evocation.
Just increase the spells a bit after giving the SR rating back, acid arrow with 2D6 damage per round is decent enough even with SR. Make it evocation and it is even better.
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I've got no problem with acid being conjuration, thus no SR.
Neither do I. :)
Fire, cold, electricity and force are created from nothing (evoked), and not brought in from an elemental plane (conjured).
The argument can be taken the other way here, where fire, cold, or electricity can be conjured or transported to behave just like the evocation versions of the spells.
Take Call Lightning for example, it calls lightning from nature, yet it's an evocation. I believe this spell calls electricity from the surrounding area to coalesce into bolts that can be directed at ones enemies. The electricity is not made up on the spot but gathered from around the localized area. In such a distinction, I think the spell has been wrongly categorized as an evocation. It should be Conjuration (Creation).
I always thought force spells should all be evocations, too, but I don't feel like dying on that hill. It works okay, RAW.
I agree here.
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I houserule the spells that allow no SR unless they deal physical damage , conjuration does not need direct damage spells anyway, just leave that to evocation.
Just increase the spells a bit after giving the SR rating back, acid arrow with 2D6 damage per round is decent enough even with SR. Make it evocation and it is even better.
But that does make Acid arrow much weaker vs golems.
Most golems have "immunity to magic" which means that they are immune to any spell that allows SR. When faced with that, acid arrow is sometimes a great choice of spell.