Kirthfinder - World of Warriorcraft Houserules


Homebrew and House Rules

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Kirth Gersen wrote:
An acid flask with a 10'r. burst would be something like ray of frost + Versatile Evocation (cold to acid; +0 levels) + Shape Spell (ray to burst; +3 levels) + Widen Spell (20'r. to 5'r., -2 levels) = 1d6 acid/level (max 5d6), with a default of CL 1st as you noted.

A knowledgeable alchemist would also add Vitreolic Evocation (1d6, +1 level) + Reduce Spell (-1 level), keeping the damage cap at 5d6 and the spell level at 1st.

  • For alchemist's fire, use Versatile Evocation (fire) and Burning Evocation instead.
  • For alchemist's frost, omit Versatile Evocation and use Numbing Cold Evocation.

    Technically, the above-referenced flasks would not be eligible for sneak attack damage (since they allows a Reflex save instead of requiring an attack roll), so a grenadier rogue would prefer to omit the Shape Spell feat and throw the flasks like an orb spell. A rogue with the Imbue Missile feat, however, could throw a burst flask and get the best of both worlds.


  • Kirth Gersen wrote:
    Technically, the above-referenced flasks would not be eligible for sneak attack damage (since they allows a Reflex save instead of requiring an attack roll), so a grenadier rogue would prefer to omit the Shape Spell feat and throw the flasks like an orb spell. A rogue with the Imbue Missile feat, however, could throw a burst flask and get the best of both worlds.

    The grenadier talent allows for sneak attack damage with splash weapons. Doesn't this count as a splash weapon?


    Arrius wrote:
    The grenadier talent allows for sneak attack damage with splash weapons. Doesn't this count as a splash weapon?

    Trying to stay consistent with existing rules; a fireball spell doesn't deal sneak attack damage, because there's no attack roll -- it's a big burst, not a single hit with a limited splash. Likewise any other effect we Shape as a burst (e.g., a sorcerer's sldritch blast). And, from a balance standpoint, a 10-ft. burst for full/half damage is sufficiently different from a 5-ft. splash for 1 point of damage that I'm not really crying, especially when one additional feat easily overcomes this limitation.

    Alternatively, one could invent a metamagic feat that provides 1 point of damage to adjacent targets; call it Splash Spell or something. That way you'd retain the attack roll and also better model the PF rules for acid flasks.


    Splash Spell sounds good.

    SPLASH SPELL [METAMAGIC]
    Prerequisite: Evocation not a barred school, 2 ranks in Spellcraft per final spell level of the affected spell.
    Prerequisite: Benefit: When this feat is applied to a spell with a “ray” or “line” area of effect, all targets in an area within a 5-foot square of the effect are damaged for 1 point per damage dice rolled. The additional damage is of the same type of the original damage dealt.
    Metamagic Cost: +1 level. By using a spell slot level +1 higher, the additional squares affected increase in volume, in increments of 5-foot squares, up to a maximum of 25 ft. of splash damage for +5 levels.
    Special: This metamagic ability cannot be applied to spells with area of Spread, Cone, Burst, Cylinders, or Cubes. Additional metamagic effects on the unmodified spell, like [Daze], [Burning], or [Cascade Spell] do not apply to the additional targets; just the splash damage does.
    Source: Suggested by Kirth to progress further in standardizing Alchemist's Fire/Frost/Acid.
    Balance Note: Perhaps if someone applies this to a curing spell to deal damage to undead, the Splash Spell can heal living targets while damaging Undead Targets. Theoretically, one could Reduce Spell to the target aspect of a Reach Splash Cure Light Wounds to maximize the splash aspect.

    This way, a flask of Alchemist's Fire is formed as so:
    Ray of Frost (0) + Splash Spell (+1 level) + Burning Spell (+1 level) + Reduce Spell (-1 level) = 1st level Evocation (Fire), dealing 1d6/CL, max (5d6), with additional 1d6 burn damage to the main target, and dealing 1 (fire)/CL to adjacent targets.

    As a first level Alchemical Spell item (referring to my post on the previous page), it will cost 50 gold to keep it on CL1, increasing in cost exponentially with CL.


    Alternatively, assign the Splash Spell feat a +0 metamagic cost if adjacent only; the flask you described would be exactly the same, and the lesser flask (using Reduice Spell to make it 0-level, for a 1d6 damage cap on hit, +1 splash damage) would cost 25 gp -- it would be equal in effect, and comparable in cost with the alchemist's fire listed in the core rules.


    Excellent suggestion. Would you add this as a patch, or will this have to wait until the next Kirthfinder release?


    Since no further releases are planned, I'd call it a patch.


    The newest set of Kirthfinder docs mentions, in several places, Profession: Horticulture.
    The Profession section includes Admin, driving, mining, and sailing.
    Is there a write up for Horticulture? (And the uses / perks of having it)?


    Firstbourne wrote:
    Is there a write up for Horticulture? (And the uses / perks of having it)?

    Sadly, there is not. It should largely be self-explanatory (you can raise plants; set DC based on frailty/conditions/how exotic the plant is); the only perks are the ones spelled out for the Plant domain and so on (which offer it as a bonus skill anyway, so you're not spending skill points on anything that would otherwise be useless).

    Remember, the professions written up are examples, not a comprehensive list of every profession in the universe. The only real restriction is that, if you're making stuff, it's a Craft skill instead; if it primarily involves a large body of knowledge, it's a Knowledge skill. (There is no profession: chef, because preparing meals involves making stuff -- i.e., is a Craft).


    As always, I'd be honored to receive your latest work, mr. Gersen.

    Many thanks in advance.

    Simba:
    josantos666@ymail.com


    Simbaa, you missed the boat by a couple of months.
    That said, if I get to it at some point I'll break from my policy of "DONE WITH MAILING!" and send you a copy.


    I was away a couple of months (real life sucks sometimes :( ) and the caravan has moved far, far away... my bad.

    With mail or no mail at all, please, just keep your good work Kirth, that's all that matters. Cheers!


    Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

    Got ya covered Simbaa, just sent a copy.


    Thanks!


    Many thanks Jam412, greatly appreciated, you guys are awesome!
    Now lemme see this little gem and maybe, with some luck, roll some dice...


    Another question i may have missed the answer to if a cleric cast spontaneously instead of prepared how do domain spells work? Since several domains like magic rely on your highest level prepared domain spell.


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    Talonhawke wrote:
    Another question i may have missed the answer to if a cleric cast spontaneously instead of prepared how do domain spells work? Since several domains like magic rely on your highest level prepared domain spell.

    Your domain spell would still be your bonus spell (the "+1" on Table 1 in Chapter 7), but would be known instead of prepared. You'd then gain the [reserve] effect based on the highest-level spell slot you have available, as per all [reserve] effects (such as the sorcerer's eldritch blast). This is one of the advantages of standardized mechanics!


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    Arrius wrote:
    I began wondering, however: Why circle around the excellent Kirthfinder spell-creation system when there is possibility of living within it? The Craft (Alchemy) skill can work differently when the character in question has Spellcasting capabilities and a sufficiently high caster level (or ranks in concentration) into allowing the creation of potions, and one possessing ranks in Knowledge (Linguistics) can create scrolls.

    I was so impressed with this idea that I played with it this weekend, working out the spells for alchemical items. First, we need a "Splash Evocation" feat as discussed above:

    Spoiler:
    EVOCATION, SPLASH [METAMAGIC]

    Prerequisite: Evocation is not a barred school.
    Benefit: This feat can be applied only to spells that require attack rolls. A Splash evocation deals 1 point of damage of the appropriate type to all targets adjacent to the creature, object, or square hit by the spell (in the event of a miss, treat a ranged spell as a grenade-like missile to determine the square hit).
    Metamagic Cost: +0 levels.
    Source: This feat allows construction of alchemist’s fire and acid flasks from the Core rules.

    Then we can work out a variety of spells; alchemical items become potions of X:

    Spoiler:
    ALCHEMICAL ITEMS
    These are treated as single-use spells, stored in a flask or other object—i.e., potions.

    Acid Flask: Ray of frost (0) + Versatile Evocation (acid; +0 levels) + Splash Evocation (+0 levels) = 0-level spell dealing 1d6 acid damage on a hit and 1 point acid damage to adjacent targets.
    Alchemist’s Fire: Ray of frost (0) + Versatile Evocation (fire; +0 levels) + Burning Evocation (1d6; +1 level) + Splash Evocation (+0 levels) + Reduce Spell (-1 level) = 0-level spell dealing 1d6 dire damage on a hit (and DC 10 Reflex or catch on fire), and 1 hp fire damage to adjacent targets.

    Alkali Flask (APG): As acid flask + Bane Spell (oozes; +1 level) = 1st level spell.

    Flashstone: As in Steven Brust’s Khaavren Romances, a flashstone is simply a single-use sound burst spell (3rd level; see above).

    Holy Water: Cure light wounds (1st) + Planar Channeling (+0 levels) + Splash Evocation (+0 levels) = 1st level; damage on a hit is 1d8+1, rather than 2d4.

    Smokestick: Fog cloud (2nd level) + Extend Spell (10 min./level to 1 minute/level; -1 level) + Widen Spell (20’r. to 10’r.; -1 level) = 0-level spell.

    Sunrod: Light spell (0 level) + Widen Spell (20’r. to 30’r.; +1 level) + Extend Spell (10 min./level to 1 hour/level; +1 level) = 2nd level spell; sheds normal light in a 30-ft. radius, and increases light level by 1 step for an additional 30 ft.

    Tanglefoot Bag: Heightened entangle (5th level) + Widen Spell (40’r. to 20’r.; -1 level) + Shape Spell (spread to ray; -2 levels) + Reach Spell (long to close range; -1 level) = 1st level spell with a DC of 15 rather than 11.

    Thunderstone: Deafness spell (2nd level) + Mass Effect Spell (+4 levels) + Extend Spell (permanent to 1 hour; -2 levels) + Reach Spell (medium to close range; -1 level) = 2nd level spell.

    Tindertwig: Ignite cantrip (0 level).

    Finally, we revise the description of the Craft (Alchemy) skill:

    Spoiler:
    Check: Mundane liquids (beer, etc.) require a DC 10 check (DC 15 for high-quality, and DC 20 for superior), and do not require any magical talent on the part of the alchemist. Creation of special alchemical items and substances is handled as if the effect were a spell (Chapter 7) and you were creating a potion or other 1-use item containing that spell. Given the standard rate of 1 hour per 250 gp base value from the general Craft rules, and using the spell-like effects for alchemical items listed in Appendix B of Chapter 7, the following times and DCs are applicable:

    Acid flask*, alchemist’s fire*, smokestick, tindertwig: 0-level, CL 1st, 25 gp, 10/hour, DC 15.
    Alkali flask, holy water, tanglefoot bag: 1st level, CL 1st, 50 gp, 5/hr., DC 16
    Sunrod, thunderstone: 2nd level, CL 3rd, 300 gp, 1/hr., DC 17

    * Potency can be increased by using a 1st level spell and increasing the caster level; a CL 5 (5d6) acid flask would cost 1 x 5 x 50 = 250 gp and require an hour per flask to brew.

    Also, the Advanced Alchemy task has now been subsumed (remove from skill), and the Augmented Alchemy task gets rewritten:

    Spoiler:
    Augmented Alchemy: When creating an alchemical item or substance, you can use higher caster levels, Heighten Spell, or other metamagic effects to increase the damage, duration, area affected etc. Details are provided in Chapter 7.


    Looking at the above Alchemy work i was wondering if the Metamagic feat should change the spell to an orb type for the purpose of deadly aim and such if its not already ie. a ray type spell. Kinda goes with the theory of throwing instead of aiming.


    Talonhawke wrote:
    Looking at the above Alchemy work i was wondering if the Metamagic feat should change the spell to an orb type for the purpose of deadly aim and such if its not already ie. a ray type spell. Kinda goes with the theory of throwing instead of aiming.

    Yes, I agree. With the exception of "acid splash" (which is treated as a ray anyway), orbs don't seem to be a thing in Pathfinder, but maybe they should be.


    That's actually been bugging me for some time. Mechanically speaking, what exactly is the difference between an orb spell and a ray spell?


    Mechanically in kirthfinder the bonus granted by deadly aim and maybe the types of metamagic available to be used.


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    It occurs to me that life might be easier if we left the difference a cosmetic one. Deadly Aim would then read, "Special: Rays and other spells requiring a ranged attack roll count as projectile weapons for purposes of this feat."

    I'd also like to propose a new metamagic feat:

    Spoiler:
    MANIFESTED SPELL [METAMAGIC]
    Your damaging spells appear as weapons, and can be defended against with armor and shield.
    Benefit: This feat can be applied only to spells that require a touch attack or ranged touch attack roll. A manifested spell strikes against the target’s normal AC, rather than touch AC.
    Metamagic Cost: -1 level.

    We can then use it to help construct the following evocation spells:

    Spoiler:
    Bigby’s Clenched Fist: Ray of frost (0) + Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + Versatile Evocation (force; +1 level) + Repeat Spell (free action; +3 levels) + Extend Spell (1 rd./level; +1 level) + Dazing Spell (+2 levels) + Pushing Spell (+1 level) + Cascade Spell (shield; +1 level) + Manifested Spell (-1 level) + Reduce Spell (-1 level) = 8th level spell that strikes once per round for 1d6 force damage/level (max 15d6) on a hit and possibly dazing (12 HD max) and bull rushing (CMB = Concentration bonus) any opponent struck; it also provides a +4 shield bonus to AC to the caster.

    Mordenkainen’s Sword: Ray of frost (0) + Versatile Evocation (force; +2 levels) + Repeat Spell (free action; +3 levels) + Extend Spell (1 rd./level; +1 level) + Cascade Spell (3rd level keen edge + Extend Spell [10 min./level to 1 rd./level: -2 levels); +1 level) + Cascade Spell (3rd level greater magic weapon + Extend Spell [1 hr./level to 1 rd./level: -2 levels = +1 level) + Manifested Spell (-1 level) + Reduce Spell (-1 level) = 6th level spell attacking once per round at +3 to hit, for 10d6+3/19-20 force damage.

    Spiritual Weapon: Ray of frost (0) + Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + Versatile Evocation (force; +1 level) + Repeat Spell (move action; +2 levels) + Extend Spell (1 rd./level; +1 level) + Cascade Spell (divine favor; +1 level) + Manifested Spell (-1 level) + Reduce Spell (2 steps; -2 levels) = 3rd level spell dealing 1d6 +1/3 levels force damage on a hit.
    Note that this spell ends up being both higher level and less powerful than the version in the Core rules; the same is true of sound burst. You're always free to allow use of the Core versions of those spells, which seem intended to give low-level clerics a fairly large combat boost.


    Given the codification of the conditions, "Fell Affliction" no longer works for the name of that metamagic feat (Chapter 7). I propose "Crippling Debilitation" as a name that more accurately describes what the feat actually does.


    EDIT: I actually like this better for spiritual weapon:

    Spoiler:
    Ray of frost (0) + Reach Spell (close to medium; +1 level) + Versatile Evocation (force; +1 level) + Cascade Spell (divine favor; +1 level) + Manifested Spell (-1 level) = 2nd level spell (damage cap 5d6, or base 1d6 force damage per hit for up to 5 hits, with bonus from divine favor applying to all attacks).


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    Interesting. I would say that the application of Manifested Spell goes without saying when it comes to constructing guns (That is if we're treating them vs. Touch, and not vs. AC).

    I was considering something; since Eldritch Blast is a reserve ability, why are there so many alternately damaging reserve abilities such as [Clap of Thunder], [Fiery Burst] or [Winter's Blast] exist, rather than consolidating all of them into an alternative ability?

    Mystic Blast [Reserve, Arcane]
    Prerequisites: Arcane spellcasting, [Concentration] 2 ranks
    Benefit: You gain the supernatural ability to unleash bolts of energy at will. The ability's range is limited to Close range [30 ft. + 5 ft./2 ranks [Concentration]. The energy damage permits no saving throw, but is a ranged touch attack dealing one type of damaged determined by the caster once this feat is taken. This damage type cannot be changed later.
    Special: Arcane Blast cannot be applied to this ability, except in conjunction with Blast Spell.
    Synergy:This feat is freely granted to Sorcerers.

    With this, the Sorcerer gain this as a bonus feat at second level, with a damage type predetermined by their bloodline, with free upgrades the higher their Sorcerer level becomes.

    This allows the creation of magical items with the rules in Chapter 6 - Equipment, Appendix A: Creation of Feat-bearing magical items.
    This happens to make the Arcane Bond: Wand option nearly obsolete, since any magical weapon can bear this feat (though its strength will be limited by creation rules. Of course, I said nearly because this ability would replicate a feat.

    With this feat added, new options could be freed up, without denying the Sorcerer their Eldritch Blast ability's strength (in comparison).
    Don't you just love standardizing everything?

    By the way, what would you say about this modification to Shadow Gambit (Inner Sea Magic)?

    Shadow Gambit, Arcane:

    Shadow Gambit
    You can tap into the Plane of Shadow to momentarily lend reality to one of your illusion (figment) spells.
    Prerequisites: Spell Focus (illusion), Concentration 5 ranks.
    Benefit: As a standard action, you can draw upon energies from the Plane of Shadow to cause an ongoing figment spell you cast to damage a foe as if the illusion were real. This is a supernatural ability. The illusion must be one you retain ongoing control of, such as minor image, and the target must be both visible to you and within or adjacent to the area of your illusion. Using this feat immediately ends the figment’s duration.
    You must either make a melee touch attack or give the target a saving throw (Fortitude or Reflex) to resist the damage (see below). If you choose a melee touch attack, you use your own melee touch attack bonus, and if you miss, the spell deals no damage. If you choose to allow the target a saving throw, a successful save means it takes half damage. The shadowy attack deals 1d6 points of damage per spell level. If the target disbelieves or sees through the illusion, reduce the damage by half. The shadowy attack can deal acid, bludgeoning, cold, electricity, fire, piercing, or slashing damage, but the damage must be appropriate to the illusion. For example, an illusory wall that collapses deals bludgeoning damage with a Fortitude save for half, an illusory swordsman strikes with a melee touch attack deals slashing damage, and an illusory wall of fire deals fire damage with a Reflex save for half.

    • If you also possess Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) and a 10 ranks in Concentration, the infusion of shadowstuff into your figments requires a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The damage inflicted by the figment infusion changes into 1d6 per rank in Concentration (maximum twice the spell’s rank).
    The infusion reduces the duration left to the figment spell by three-fourths. If the spell was to end in two turns or less, it ends instantly, or else it can be reshaped and reused. If the spell has duration of “Permanent”, it is lowered to 1 level per rank in Concentration, Maximum 10 rounds.
    You may also cause patterns to deal nonlethal damage equal to 1d6 per rank in Concentration. Infusion instantly terminates the ongoing pattern spell, regardless of duration.


    Arrius wrote:

    With this, the Sorcerer gain this as a bonus feat at second level, with a damage type predetermined by their bloodline, with free upgrades the higher their Sorcerer level becomes.

    With this feat added, new options could be freed up, without denying the Sorcerer their Eldritch Blast ability's strength (in comparison).
    Don't you just love standardizing everything?

    I wish I'd thought of this months ago. Great idea. I would add to the prerequisites ("Evocation is not a barred school"), expand the feat description to include energy types that are "okay" and others (like force) that we might not want to hand out wholesale, and also add "Reserve Spell: 1st level spell of the appropriate energy type."

    As an added bonus, we reduce page count, which is almost never a bad thing.


    We could take Versatile Evocation as a base, having considering the original damage Mystic Blast does is Untyped, but the feat taker must choose a +0 modification from the list (Acid/Cold/Electricityslashing/piercing/bludgeoning/Fire/nonlethal), and cannot take the +1 modifications (Sonic/Negative). Reasonably, the +2 modification (Force) is out of the question.


    Arrius wrote:

    We could take Versatile Evocation as a base, having considering the original damage Mystic Blast does is Untyped, but the feat taker must choose a +0 modification from the list (Acid/Cold/Electricityslashing/piercing/bludgeoning/Fire/nonlethal), and cannot take the +1 modifications (Sonic/Negative). Reasonably, the +2 modification (Force) is out of the question.

    I suppose, spell-wise, that it would be built as a ray of frost with Versatile Evocation: 1st level for acid, cold, electricity, fire; 2nd for negative energy and sonic; 3rd for force. We'd need to give something else to the +0 options to Heighten them to 2nd level so we can hit that 10d6 damage cap instead of 5d6, or we could create an Innate Metamagic: Reserve option that ups the damage cap in exchange for requiring a reserve spell (and therefore scaling at 1d6/2 levels instead of 1d6/level).

    When higher-level sorcerers get iterative blasts, you'd essentially be adding the Ray Splitting feat (and because that bumps the level up again, the higher damage cap keeps pace with that feat's damage limitation).


    Kirth wrote:
    I suppose, spell-wise, that it would be built as a ray of frost with Versatile Evocation: 1st level for acid, cold, electricity, fire; 2nd for negative energy and sonic; 3rd for force. We'd need to give something else to the +0 options to Heighten them to 2nd level so we can hit that 10d6 damage cap instead of 5d6, or we could create an Innate Metamagic: Reserve option that ups the damage cap in exchange for requiring a reserve spell (and therefore scaling at 1d6/2 levels instead of 1d6/level).

    Actually, a Reserve Spell [Metamagic] seems to do the work nicely.

    Reserve Evocation [Reserve, Arcane]
    Prerequisites: Evocation not a barred school, [Concentration] 2 ranks
    Benefit: You gain the supernatural ability to unleash bolts of energy at will. The ability's range is limited to Close range (30 ft. + 5 ft./2 ranks [Concentration]). The energy damage permits no saving throw, but is a ranged touch attack dealing one type of damaged determined by the spell this metamagic feat is applied to.
    Metamagic Cost: +1 spell level; +0 if Sorcerer.
    Special: You may only apply this to metamagic spells, with a maximum spell level equal to one-half your ranks in Spellcraft. If chosen, the spell cannot be changed.
    Source: This allows for a reasonable recreation of various Complete Arcane Reserve feats, and the Sorcerer's signature ability: Eldritch Blast.

    Note: This ability could instead function like Innate Spell, with a spell slot permanently reserved for this ability, and with the caster's choice to 'level up' the Mystic Blast to deal more damage. This requires a free spell slot on the Sorcerer's side, of course. This may be subsumed into the free Mystic Blast Sorcerers get away, thankfully.


    Any chance someone would be willing to throw me a bone and send me the most recent version of this? I absolutely loved it when I first read it, but the version I have is almost two years old . . .

    Spoiler:
    wreid0@gmail.com


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    Done. :)


    Thanks much!


    Arrius wrote:
    Actually, a Reserve Spell [Metamagic] seems to do the work nicely.

    This is coming out a bit garbled, as you've got it written like a Reserve feat, but the "metamagic cost" listing implies it's a metamagic feat instead; maybe I'm not reading it correctly.

    Did you intend something like this?

    Spoiler:

    EVOCATION, RESERVE [METAMAGIC]
    Benefit: This feat can be applied only to an evocation spell with the [acid], [cold], [electricity], or [fire] descriptor. A reserve evocation becomes the reserve spell for a [reserve] ability (see Chapter 5, "Reserve Feats") allowing you to fire bolts of energy at will as a standard action as long as you have the reserve spell prepared (if you are a prepared caster) or known, and with an equal or higher level spell slot remaining (if you are a spontaneous caster). Each bolt strikes as a ranged touch attack (ray) of Close range dealing 1d6 energy damage per level of the reserve spell; this damage is of the same type as that dealt by the reserve spell.
    Metamagic Cost: +1 level (+0 levels for sorcerers).

    Or maybe a straightforward [reserve] feat after all?

    Spoiler:
    ELDRITCH BLAST [RESERVE]
    Prerequisites: Evocation not a barred school; Concentration 2 ranks
    Benefit: Select one of the following energy types: acid, cold, electricity, fire; once a type is chosen, you cannot change it. At will as a standard action, you can unleash a bolt of appropriate energy as a ranged touch attack (ray) with a range of Close that deals 1d6 energy damage (of the appropriate type) per spell level of your reserve spell.
    Reserve Spell: 1st (or higher) level Evocation spell with the appropriate energy descriptor.
    Special:You can select this feat multiple times. Each time, choose a different energy type.

    And maybe a companion feat:

    Spoiler:
    SHADOW BLAST [RESERVE]
    Prerequisite: At will as a standard action, you can unleash a bolt of as a ranged touch attack (ray) with a range of Close that deals 1d6 nonletahal damage per spell level of the reserve spell.
    Reserve Spell: 1st (or higher) level Enchantment or Illusion spell (choose one school; once chosen, you cannot change this selection).


    Ah; I intended to leave them as options.
    We may take several approaches, most of which you have covered already.
    I myself prefer it to be a straightforward [Reserve] feat, but it may be less receptive to modifications by metamagic feats (save by Innate Metamagic, etc.)

    What do you mean by a companion feat?


    Arrius wrote:
    What do you mean by a companion feat?

    For the nonlethal eldritch blasts, it seemed simpler to give them their own analogous feat, rather than muck up the main energy blast feat with them.


    Now that I think of it, the Mystic Blast ability (when modified with metamagic) has no specification on caster level. When one chooses to make a blast of a Ray of Frost Cone (0 level), 5 ft. range). The ability Winter's Blast will become stronger, reaching a minimum of 15 ft.

    Winter's Blast [Reserve] source:

    You can create a cone-shaped burst of cold, with a length and maximum width equal to 15 ft. x the level of the highest-level cold spell you have remaining. This cone deals ld6 points of cold damage per level of the highest-level cold spell you have available to cast (Reflex half).

    Ray of Frost (0) + Shape Spell (Ray to Cone; +1 level) + Widen Spell (30 ft. to 15 ft., -1 level) + heighten spell (+1 level) = 1st level spell dealing 1d6/CL, with a cone of 15 ft.

    I would suggest that the caster level for all variables included in the original spell would be equal to the level of the highest-remaining spell slot.

    For more accurate replication of Winter's Blast/Fiery Burst's base spell, perhaps we could have a metamagic feat that scales distance of cones/bursts/lines per caster level, with a penalty to begin with.

    Shape Spell, Improved [Metamagic]
    Prerequisites: Shape Spell, Concentration 2 ranks.
    Benefits: You may apply this feat to any spell you have modified with Shape Spell. This lowers the range of the spell's area of effect to 5 ft., but allows scaling per caster level.
    Metamagic cost: +1.
    Special: This feat is to allow the creation of various modified Mystic Blasts.

    With this feat, one can create Winter's Blast to scale with caster level (or since it is a reserve feat, scales with highest-level spell remaining.

    Ray of Frost (0) + Shape Spell (Ray to Cone; +1 level) + Widen Spell (30 ft. to 15 ft., -1 level) + Shape Spell ,Improved (+1 level) = 1st level spell dealing 1d6/CL, with a cone of 5 ft./CL.

    Kirth wrote:
    For the nonlethal eldritch blasts, it seemed simpler to give them their own analogous feat, rather than muck up the main energy blast feat with them.

    Good thinking. This does not cover piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage, however. Perhaps we should stick to it being based on a modified base spell applied to the feat. If the [Reserve] ability is based on a specific spell, it would make sense to allow the spell perimeters to stay (like a mini-Eldritch-Fireball), though the increased spell level may have its own cost...

    Perhaps the [Reserve] spell is at will only when the ranks in concentration are higher than or equal to twice the original spell chosen to be 'blasted'. I'm sure we can think something out.


    Arrius wrote:
    I would suggest that the caster level for all variables included in the original spell would be equal to the level of the highest-remaining spell slot.

    I like the way you're thinking here. Let me think on it some over the weekend. Thanks!


    Got a little side-tracked over the weekend working on more metamagic spell construction. Will keep people posted once I get somewhere, but for now, for the most part, I've got it so that minor conditions = +1 metamagic cost; moderate conditions = +2 metamagic cost; serious conditions = +3 metamagic cost; critical conditions = +4 metamagic cost, and all the conditions, more or less, are accounted for.

    Then I start thinking that Paizo's Dazing Spell (serious condition, +3 cost) is probably too powerful, but then I remember how much easier it is to get spells off in PF than in KF. Still on the fence there. Maybe the costs should be more like +1/+2/+4/+5 (+1/+1/+3/+4 once you get into stacking metamagic).


    Kirth wrote:
    Got a little side-tracked over the weekend working on more metamagic spell construction. Will keep people posted once I get somewhere, but for now, for the most part, I've got it so that minor conditions = +1 metamagic cost; moderate conditions = +2 metamagic cost; serious conditions = +3 metamagic cost; critical conditions = +4 metamagic cost, and all the conditions, more or less, are accounted for.

    I have done a preliminary job regarding that in a previous post, with my addition of Phantasmal Reality (Called then Subjective Reality)

    PHANTASMAL REALITY [METAMAGIC]
    Benefit: Your [mind-affecting] illusion spells add a debilitating condition upon a failed disbelief, chosen between [Debilitation], [Fear], [Inertia], [Restraint], and [Sensory], chosen when modified by the feat.
    Metamagic Cost: The step of severity depends on the levels heightened by the feat, up to a maximum spell level of +4 for Critical, or +1 for Minor. On a successful save, the condition is negated to the lowest step (or ignored, if the step is the minor condition).

    Regarding that, I was thinking of upping the metamagic cost, and adding a new metamagic feat that lowers the spell level, with the cost of having the spell affect enemy per hit dice.

    Limited Spell:

    LIMITED SPELL [METAMAGIC]
    Benefit: Your modified spell affects targets depending on their hit dice. Targets possessing a higher hit dice than your spell's limit count as having unbeatable spell resistance to it. The maximum hit dice for a spell modified by this feat is 3 * Spell level (minimum 3).
    Metamagic Cost: -1 Spell level. This can be applied multiple times.

    For example, Daze becomes a Phantasm spell, inflicting the 3rd level of [Inertia], which is the [Dazed] condition.
    With Phantasmal Whisper, it would be a level 2 spell, not a cantrip. This, along with metamagic stacking and the new metamagic feat Limited Spell, will allow for it to be an illusion cantrip that inflicts the condition, with a maximum hit dice of 3.
    With the limiter, the ability may see more use. Without it, there is no possible way to replicate the Daze cantrip in KF.

    Of course, Phantasmal Whisper (the base spell) has a duration of 1 round/level. The Daze is only for one round, so Extend Spell (from 1 round/level to 1 round) reduces spell level by 2 anyway. The HD-limiter metamagic feat is still a valid option to reduce spell level regardless.


    Kirthfinder - Sorcerer wrote:
    Because it requires an attack roll, you can apply feats such as Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and ranged [Strike] feats to your eldritch blast.

    I like the approach of making a Mystic Blast / Reserve Evocation feat to replace Eldritch Blast as is and metamagic'd to replace I have no idea how many Reserve feats, but don't see this tidbit of Eldritch Blast being included. How is it being handled?

    Does it get completely dropped? Does it get added onto the Mystic Blast / Reserve Evocation feat? Does it get spelled out in a possible Weaponlike Spells / SLAs weapon group in the Equipment Chapter?

    The latter might actually fit best with the Feats and Weaponlike Spells section in Complete Arcane Ch. 3, and it could point out that characters are free to pick up different proficiency levels in those spells (for abilities like Ki Attack and such).


    Tahlreth wrote:
    I like the approach of making a Mystic Blast / Reserve Evocation feat to replace Eldritch Blast as is and metamagic'd to replace I have no idea how many Reserve feats, but don't see this tidbit of Eldritch Blast being included. How is it being handled?

    Eldritch Blast (the Sorcerer Ability) is simply the Mystic Blast, given for free, and upgraded as per Bloodline abilities.

    This way, if one has a bloodline, the feat Mystic Blast benefits from synergy enough to replicate the original Kirthfinder Sorcerer.

    As for making it a weaponlike spell...There is the Manifested Spell metamagic feat, applied as Innate Metamagic to Mystic Blast allows for the replication of a weaponlike spell. Instead of the abstract rules in Complete Arcane, it could be so that any Manifested spell is considered a weapon for the purposes of enhancements added, feats that modify weapons, etc.

    As for proficiencies...I'd rather not go into that. Though we may blur the lines between weapons and spells, benefits varying levels of proficiency get difficult to adjudicate. If you have reloading (magical item recharge rules), the rules become easier to add.

    For quick rules, however, we can have these.
    Simple: Can attack with -4, reload 2 full rounds.
    Martial: No penalty on attack roll, reload 1 full round.
    Exotic: Reload 1 standard action.


    Arrius wrote:
    chosen between [Debilitation], [Fear], [Inertia], [Restraint], and [Sensory], chosen when modified by the feat.

    I have to admit I'm not a fan of making a single metamagic feat this broad in scope; I'd rather a separate feat for each descriptor.

    Arrius wrote:
    I was thinking of upping the metamagic cost, and adding a new metamagic feat that lowers the spell level, with the cost of having the spell affect enemy per hit dice.

    That's pretty much where I was headed. I added an "Expedient Spell" feat (so named because you use it to deal with mooks without wasting higher-level spells); at a -1 metamagic cost, it puts a cap on HD of creatures affected equal to 4 + the final level of the spell (this keeps daze and daze monster consistent with the Core rules, and is in the right range for color spray and sleep.

    Arrius wrote:
    The Daze is only for one round, so Extend Spell (from 1 round/level to 1 round) reduces spell level by 2 anyway.

    It reduces the duration by 1 step, so it would reduce the final spell level by 1. I should probably spell this out more clearly: the costs for reducing spell level and increasing it do not need to balance to make 0. (Similarly, reducing area of effect by half would be a -1 adjustment, not -2.) Yes, I know the math doesn't work if you tried to add it back on -- but really what you'd be doing in that case is removing the artificially-imposed limit, if you see what I mean.


    For dazing and stunning, they're such potent fight-enders that I'd like to see them handled like confusion and paralysis and so on: if X attribute is reduced to 1, you're dazed. Then Dazing Spell would be replaced by damage attribute. A +1 level cost metamagic feat could be added to increase the condition from dazed to stunned.

    What I'd really like to be able to do is revamp all the attribute penalties, damage, and draining in order to make a coherent condition system. Each attribute would be tied to a condition descriptor, and then we'd have something like the following:

  • Minor condition if penalized so that no attribute bonus (or, if no bonus already, if taking a penalty at all);
  • Moderate condition if reduced below half;
  • Severe condition if damaged to 1;
  • Critical condition if damaged to 0;
  • Permanent condition if drained to 0.

    I'm not sure if that's really feasible, however.


  • Ah, yes. One metamagic feat for all conditions may be quite cheap in comparison to others, but the idea remains. There could be a [Fear] metamagic, [Inertia], [Restraint], or whatever. We can split them as much as we could, if the idea remains.


    You can keep it just one metamagic feat. Just put in language like Weapon Focus, where you choose one [Descriptor] when you take the feat. And add:

    Special: You can take this feat multiple times. You must pick a different [Descriptor] each time.


    Ideally, all the conditions would fall on neat tracks, and all be triggered by attribute penalty/damage/drain. We could clean up a lot of [Strike] feats that way as well as a lot of metamagic. We might have to adjust the tracks and move stuff around a bit, but imagine the following:

  • If an attribute takes a sufficient penalty so that you receive no bonus from it (or any penalty at all, if the modifier is already less than +1), you gain the Minor condition associated with that attribute and track.
  • If the attribute is penalized so that it's below half normal, you gain the Moderate condition instead.
  • If the attribute is penalized so that it has a value of 1, you gain the Serious condition instead.
  • If the attribute is damaged to zero, you get the Critical condition.
  • If the attribute is drained to zero, you get a Permanent condition.

    Attribute [Condition Track] - Minor/Moderate/Serious/Critical/Permanent
    Str [Restraint] - Entangled/Grappled/Pinned/Helpless/ ?
    Dex [Interia] - Flat-footed/Staggered/Slowed/Paralyzed/Petrified
    Con [Affliction] - Sickened/ ? /Nauseated/Dead/Destroyed
    Int [Mental] - ? / ? /Dazed/Stunned/Feebleminded
    Wis [Sensory] - Dazzled/Blinded/Confused/Insensate/Insane
    Cha [Mind-Affecting] - Mind-Fogged/Charmed/Fascinated/Dominated/Enthralled


  • The mental track shows some interesting design space for lesser mental penalties.


    Caedwyr wrote:
    The mental track shows some interesting design space for lesser mental penalties.

    Indeed, and I'm hoping you guys can help with that!

    This kind of setup represents a logical move away from binary save-or-die effects, towards a system in which penalties and escalated consequences accrue -- with the result of failed saves being a much more rapid rate of accrual, but with even successful saves not totally getting you off the hook. Instead of a fixed-price metamagic feat forcing everyone affected to save or be dazed (for example) and out of the fight, it forces them to save or take some penalty/damage to an attribute, and the metamagic cost scales with the magnitude of that damage. As of two years ago I was very hesitant to embrace this, but playtesting has led me to believe it's the way to go (we used slay living to deal Con damage in a mid-level adventure, and, more recently, treated a cockatrice's petrifaction as Dex drain, and I thought the results of both were very positive).


    Kirth wrote:
    This kind of setup represents a logical move away from binary save-or-die effects, towards a system in which penalties and escalated consequences accrue -- with the result of failed saves being a much more rapid rate of accrual, but with even successful saves not totally getting you off the hook.

    I find myself similarly hesitant as well. This has become a staple of 3.5 (and subsequently, its iterations).

    For example, [Charm Person] seems to push towards skill uses instead of the spell itself, as the condition [Charmed] does not translate into obedience, but simply taking a penalty to opposed Charisma to convince.

    I do believe this to be a step forward, however. Attributes can go up and down through combat, and most players hate it when one failed save pushes them out of combat (or in the case of Slay Living, the game).

    Let's go on with this. However, condition-inflicting spells may lose some value in the new system in comparison with the old.

    Keep in mind that this makes monsters like Undead and Constructs, as well as abilities like Guarded Attributes extremely powerful.

    Kirth wrote:


    Attribute [Condition Track] - Minor/Moderate/Serious/Critical/Permanent
    Str [Restraint] - Winded/Entangled/Grappled/Pinned/Helpless
    Dex [Interia] - Flat-footed/Staggered/Slowed/Paralyzed/Petrified
    Con [Affliction] - Sickened/Tired/Nauseated/Dead/Destroyed
    Int [Mental] - Fascinated/Trauma/Dazed/Stunned/Feebleminded
    Wis [Sensory] - Dazzled/Blinded/Confused/Insensate/Insane
    Cha [Mind-Affecting] - Mind-Fogged/Charmed/Fascinated/Dominated/Enthralled

    [Restraint] Minor counts as: [Winded]

    [Winded]: Acts like [Fatigued]. Does not escalate to [Exhausted].

    [Affliction] Serious counts as: [Nauseated].
    [Affliction] Moderate counts as: [Tired]
    [Tired]: As Staggered, with bodily function failure rather than actual loss of dexterity.

    [Mental]: Minor counts as [Fascinated].
    [Mental]: Moderate counts as [Trauma]
    [Trauma]: 50% chance to fail an action. Weaker than Dazed, but the next logical step of mental damage.

    Regarding this, where would the fear chain be? Will it be except from the normal list?

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